L3 Harris Unfair Dismissal
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2024
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: Japan
L3 Harris Unfair Dismissal
Hey everyone, I need some urgent advice and recommendations. Here's my situation: I'm enrolled in the Integrated Training Program at L3 Harris Flight Academy in the UK. I live in Japan and flew to the UK to train and start my career as a pilot. Upon completing ground school, I was expected to go to the US to continue the flying phase up to CPL and then return to the UK for further completion. However, I recently received a termination letter from the academy stating that I had multiple failures in my ATPL exams and exceeded the 39-week timeframe set for us. But this isn't accurate. The termination criteria are supposed to be either failing 5 exams or exceeding 39 weeks in ground school. I only have 4 exam failures and completed everything within 37 weeks. The extra month and a week were due to EASA exams not happening at the same time as the CAA exams. To make matters worse, other students who started training with me have exceeded 39 weeks and have more than 5 failures, yet they haven't been terminated. I feel I've been unfairly singled out. I've tried calling the academy, but my calls go straight to voicemail, and my emails go unanswered. I've already paid £46,000 to them, and now I'm at a loss for what to do next. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle this? Also, if anyone knows of any good lawyers specializing in education or contract disputes in the UK, please let me know. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,846
Likes: 4
From: Bristol, England
They have taken £46,000 from you and only delivered the ATPL groundschool? No refund? That's truly shocking, yet another L3 public relations own-goal. Any resolution will depend on the exact wording in your contract with L3. In the past, there seem to have been NDAs in place that prevent disgruntled customers from making the training contracts publicly available. If this is the case, without seeing the contract terms no-one here is going to be able to offer any practical help other than to suggest you lawyer up immediately, which would be my advice. In my experience most lawyers can handle what should be a fairly straightforward contract case.
Joined: Nov 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,144
Likes: 741
From: UK
Yes, read the small print of your contract and consult a solicitor.
But I am wondering why L3, (and others), are putting candidates forward for their exams when they clearly are not ready for them. What is going on with their ground-school and teaching ?
But I am wondering why L3, (and others), are putting candidates forward for their exams when they clearly are not ready for them. What is going on with their ground-school and teaching ?
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
From: Sunny Solihull
Interesting as I have heard from other students at L3 that several have either been terminated or threatened with termination under similar circumstances, seems to be a newish policy. I suspect the true reason behind it is the massive delays in the flying programme (see other posts/forums) therefore if they can 'lose' a few students along the way so much the better. They are likely to be on penalty clauses for late delivery of airline (easyJet etc.) students (but not you) so anything to reduce the queue.
Full-time integrated ground school with accommodation etc. should be no more than about £12k so I reckon you should be looking for at least a £30k refund & no reason not to pay it. You would have thought even as a goodwill gesture they should be offering a substantial refund but they don't seem to have worked that one out. Their contracts used to mention 'guarantees', basically an insurance that provided you made minimum standards & things didn't work out you could get some of your money back? However if you started failing progress tests or real exams then this 'guarantee' would be revoked in writing.
In the UK only a court can actually enforce a contract. I'v known various companies write some amazing contract terms only to have them dismissed by an actual court. As said above get in touch with a lawyer asap, I can recommend lawbite who I have actually used a couple of times on contract issues. You get a free 15 minute initial chat, so definitely worth a call.
Yet another lesson in don't go integrated (unless fully sponsored) & don't pay significant amounts up front.
Full-time integrated ground school with accommodation etc. should be no more than about £12k so I reckon you should be looking for at least a £30k refund & no reason not to pay it. You would have thought even as a goodwill gesture they should be offering a substantial refund but they don't seem to have worked that one out. Their contracts used to mention 'guarantees', basically an insurance that provided you made minimum standards & things didn't work out you could get some of your money back? However if you started failing progress tests or real exams then this 'guarantee' would be revoked in writing.
In the UK only a court can actually enforce a contract. I'v known various companies write some amazing contract terms only to have them dismissed by an actual court. As said above get in touch with a lawyer asap, I can recommend lawbite who I have actually used a couple of times on contract issues. You get a free 15 minute initial chat, so definitely worth a call.
Yet another lesson in don't go integrated (unless fully sponsored) & don't pay significant amounts up front.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2024
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: Japan
Sorry for the long reply
So, here is the thing : First off I was an international student so I had to have a visa to start my flight training so I decided to choose L3 over other schools at that time. I started my training on August 2023 in integrated course with dual license route.
My expected graduation from ground school was on March 1st of March being last day of the ATPL exam for EASA. However, as I couldn’t clear my POF , MET initially in my first sitting and I didn’t feel so confident taking them during my first sitting of exam I decided to talk with the instructor and keep it to come back either in second series of exam or worst case take it after and use my fourth sitting. Which the head instructor said that it seems like a good idea to do so. However, as I was getting through I failed in additional two more exams on my second and third sitting combined. Due to which I had four total exams remaining.
However, as I was doing dual license the problem was that for some subjects like G Nav & flight Planning I would pass with excellent score in for example for EASA but I would fail for the other one with like 1 % or 2% but when I talked with the head instructor regarding the same he would tell me that its nothing to worry about as long as you pass with good grades next time.
And, now comes the main point after using the third sitting and with following subjects remaining I decided to use my fourth sitting and spend a month time to prepare for exam and sit them
CAA : Flight Planning , POF & MET
EASA : POF & MET
I phoned up the head instructor and he told me not to worry and start preparing for the remaining exams.
And a week prior to me sitting my exam I was sent an email saying I have seven subjects remaining to do and they are afraid that I won’t be hired by airlines and will not meet the airline recruitment criteria and hence informed me that they will take me to something called training review board and let me know the outcome of either continue flight training with them or to end it after completion of ground school.
However, in contract there is no such thing mentioned as to what is that they expect from a student like average score, how many sittings and how many failures is allowed or anything of a sort. Only thing that was mentioned was during the orientation we were informed of tagging my airlines like BA & TUI and requirement such as 90% average score and 85% for BA, and that we have total of 6 sittings that we can use to complete all our ATPL exams.
As, it was very unsettling for me and I couldn’t focus on exams or anything I decide to send and email and tell them if they could perhaps let me know what they plan to do for me and after three days this is what they sent me
“The TRB gave a recommendation that Bibak’s training is reviewed after the next planned exam sitting to monitor attendance and the results.”
And, after that I thought that I still had chance to continue my training as I had average score of 84% overall so far and I didn’t think that it would be a problem and just to be sure I called the head instructor and asked him if I should be concerned about anything for my future as I was taken to TRB for reviewing and stuff. And he said to me that I shouldn’t be concerned and it was more of like just a formality and more over he said it was targeted for some students as many students who started their flight training way ahead of my batch mates they were not so serious and were not showing up when it was their turn to fly and calling sick and not taking it seriously at all and hence were targeted to those kind of student. And , he told me to come to school and talk further after completing my exams on my fourth sitting
And, after completing my fourth sitting for EASA as it was scheduled to happen prior to CAA I went to school and talked with head instructor and told him that I had completed my EASA POF & MET and now I have CAA exams remaining and would like to know when I am sitting for them as I hadn’t received any confirmation for my booking for exam
And, when he opened his system and typed my name I was told that I still had my module three exams remaining and my scores from module three exams were not updated in their system and he informed me that now I have five more exams to complete for EASA and I told him no I have just completed all my EASA exams, he said sorry and asked me my scores and started to update them right infront of my eyes
After that he told me that it better if you don’t do your CAA exams if you don’t plan to fly in the UK and he started to convince me that with my scores I would possibly be employed by airlines like Easy Jet or Jet 2 who doesn’t necessarily require me to have dual and just having EASA would be fine and when I told him that no I still want to sit for my CAA exams as I have already prepared he told me that they had forgot to book me in and next available date is next month. And, he started to tell me that if I wait for next month they would possibly terminate me right after completing ground school as I will be spending more than 8 months in ground school
At that time I felt little bit worried about it and he told me that best way out of it is that I don’t sit for my remaining CAA exams and wait for two weeks and fly to US and start my flying phase of training immediately without any issue
After waiting for two weeks and not hearing anything from them as to when is my training starting and any further information on third week I was sent letter of termination and since then things has just turned upside down, no answers , no justification why on what basis was I terminated while mates who were in similar boat in fact more worst situation than me were allowed to go to the US and start their flight training while I was singled out
My expected graduation from ground school was on March 1st of March being last day of the ATPL exam for EASA. However, as I couldn’t clear my POF , MET initially in my first sitting and I didn’t feel so confident taking them during my first sitting of exam I decided to talk with the instructor and keep it to come back either in second series of exam or worst case take it after and use my fourth sitting. Which the head instructor said that it seems like a good idea to do so. However, as I was getting through I failed in additional two more exams on my second and third sitting combined. Due to which I had four total exams remaining.
However, as I was doing dual license the problem was that for some subjects like G Nav & flight Planning I would pass with excellent score in for example for EASA but I would fail for the other one with like 1 % or 2% but when I talked with the head instructor regarding the same he would tell me that its nothing to worry about as long as you pass with good grades next time.
And, now comes the main point after using the third sitting and with following subjects remaining I decided to use my fourth sitting and spend a month time to prepare for exam and sit them
CAA : Flight Planning , POF & MET
EASA : POF & MET
I phoned up the head instructor and he told me not to worry and start preparing for the remaining exams.
And a week prior to me sitting my exam I was sent an email saying I have seven subjects remaining to do and they are afraid that I won’t be hired by airlines and will not meet the airline recruitment criteria and hence informed me that they will take me to something called training review board and let me know the outcome of either continue flight training with them or to end it after completion of ground school.
However, in contract there is no such thing mentioned as to what is that they expect from a student like average score, how many sittings and how many failures is allowed or anything of a sort. Only thing that was mentioned was during the orientation we were informed of tagging my airlines like BA & TUI and requirement such as 90% average score and 85% for BA, and that we have total of 6 sittings that we can use to complete all our ATPL exams.
As, it was very unsettling for me and I couldn’t focus on exams or anything I decide to send and email and tell them if they could perhaps let me know what they plan to do for me and after three days this is what they sent me
“The TRB gave a recommendation that Bibak’s training is reviewed after the next planned exam sitting to monitor attendance and the results.”
And, after that I thought that I still had chance to continue my training as I had average score of 84% overall so far and I didn’t think that it would be a problem and just to be sure I called the head instructor and asked him if I should be concerned about anything for my future as I was taken to TRB for reviewing and stuff. And he said to me that I shouldn’t be concerned and it was more of like just a formality and more over he said it was targeted for some students as many students who started their flight training way ahead of my batch mates they were not so serious and were not showing up when it was their turn to fly and calling sick and not taking it seriously at all and hence were targeted to those kind of student. And , he told me to come to school and talk further after completing my exams on my fourth sitting
And, after completing my fourth sitting for EASA as it was scheduled to happen prior to CAA I went to school and talked with head instructor and told him that I had completed my EASA POF & MET and now I have CAA exams remaining and would like to know when I am sitting for them as I hadn’t received any confirmation for my booking for exam
And, when he opened his system and typed my name I was told that I still had my module three exams remaining and my scores from module three exams were not updated in their system and he informed me that now I have five more exams to complete for EASA and I told him no I have just completed all my EASA exams, he said sorry and asked me my scores and started to update them right infront of my eyes
After that he told me that it better if you don’t do your CAA exams if you don’t plan to fly in the UK and he started to convince me that with my scores I would possibly be employed by airlines like Easy Jet or Jet 2 who doesn’t necessarily require me to have dual and just having EASA would be fine and when I told him that no I still want to sit for my CAA exams as I have already prepared he told me that they had forgot to book me in and next available date is next month. And, he started to tell me that if I wait for next month they would possibly terminate me right after completing ground school as I will be spending more than 8 months in ground school
At that time I felt little bit worried about it and he told me that best way out of it is that I don’t sit for my remaining CAA exams and wait for two weeks and fly to US and start my flying phase of training immediately without any issue
After waiting for two weeks and not hearing anything from them as to when is my training starting and any further information on third week I was sent letter of termination and since then things has just turned upside down, no answers , no justification why on what basis was I terminated while mates who were in similar boat in fact more worst situation than me were allowed to go to the US and start their flight training while I was singled out
Joined: Nov 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,144
Likes: 741
From: UK
Have you spoken to BALPA, the UK pilot's union ?
I don't know if you are, or can be, a member, but it might be worth having a chat with them. I would hope that they can advise you or direct you to a solicitor who can.
Good luck, (and come on L3, it sounds as if you have dropped the ball here with this student. You need to get your act together, and look after your students better. You certainly should not be terminating any whom you failed to book into the exams at the right time.)
I don't know if you are, or can be, a member, but it might be worth having a chat with them. I would hope that they can advise you or direct you to a solicitor who can.
Good luck, (and come on L3, it sounds as if you have dropped the ball here with this student. You need to get your act together, and look after your students better. You certainly should not be terminating any whom you failed to book into the exams at the right time.)
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
From: Sunny Solihull
bibak sorry to hear your long tail of woe but not surprised. However none of this changes your current situation where you might go down a legal route. In which case I advise you not posting/discussing anymore grievances on a public forum as it may harm your case. Get on that phone to lawbite asap.
Professional Student
Joined: Mar 2005
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 678
Likes: 25
From: My Secret Island Lair
bibak sorry to hear your long tail of woe but not surprised. However none of this changes your current situation where you might go down a legal route. In which case I advise you not posting/discussing anymore grievances on a public forum as it may harm your case. Get on that phone to lawbite asap.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 911
Likes: 334
From: uk
Sorry indeed for the problems that you have encountered. However with the greatest of respect I would have advised not going anywhere near L3 for training. They have a long history of treating students poorly and essentially ripping them off to put it crudely. I would strongly advise taking legal guidance. Good luck.
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 588
Likes: 60
From: FLSomething
Sorry indeed for the problems that you have encountered. However with the greatest of respect I would have advised not going anywhere near L3 for training. They have a long history of treating students poorly and essentially ripping them off to put it crudely. I would strongly advise taking legal guidance. Good luck.
Hopefully OP can get this sorted, and maybe just maybe people might take their fingers out their ears and go down the Modular route..!
Joined: Nov 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,144
Likes: 741
From: UK
When I did my integrated CAP509 ATPL course at a UK school in the late '90s; the school was (reasonably) good, we paid in instalments, (and I got very good results FWIW).
And, crucially, most airlines at that time only wanted students from integrated schools, not those from the modular route.
Sounds as if things have turned 180° since then, and that schools have gone down the route of concentrating on money rather than the service they are supposed to provide.
Come on guys, these cadets will be flying you and your families on your holidays in the future, so stop ripping them off and give them a decent training - as you have been paid to do.
Good luck to the OP.
And, crucially, most airlines at that time only wanted students from integrated schools, not those from the modular route.
Sounds as if things have turned 180° since then, and that schools have gone down the route of concentrating on money rather than the service they are supposed to provide.
Come on guys, these cadets will be flying you and your families on your holidays in the future, so stop ripping them off and give them a decent training - as you have been paid to do.
Good luck to the OP.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2024
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: Japan
I did email them and asked them if there is anything they could do about it and they asked me to send them an email and never got back to me since then.
Now, all I wanna do is try to recover as much money as possible from L3 and move on with life and continue my training else where.
Now, all I wanna do is try to recover as much money as possible from L3 and move on with life and continue my training else where.
de minimus non curat lex
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,510
Likes: 7
From: sunny troon
I find it remarkable that given the well publicised track record of L3 with self funding ab-initio customers, they still attract this type of customer.
In common with any training commitment CAVEAT EMPTOR & take professional advice before signing on the line.
As they say on HP agreements, don’t sign unless you wish to be legally committed to the obligations.
In common with any training commitment CAVEAT EMPTOR & take professional advice before signing on the line.
As they say on HP agreements, don’t sign unless you wish to be legally committed to the obligations.
Joined: Jul 2024
Posts: 29
Likes: 3
From: Bedford
Was this situation ever resolved? It sounds awful.
I've never flown with L3 but from a recruitment perspective I have found L3 to be discombobulated at best and even unable to answer e-mails, so I'm not surprised to read so much negativity about them.
I've never flown with L3 but from a recruitment perspective I have found L3 to be discombobulated at best and even unable to answer e-mails, so I'm not surprised to read so much negativity about them.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
From: Earth
Why is L3 even offering an EASA license?? EASA cancelled their training in the U.S and the dumbasses who closed their Portuguese base were left to find alternatives. They can only offer UK license to begin with
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 911
Likes: 334
From: uk
Just to add my two pence worth. Jet 2 would require a UK ATPL. The bases are in the UK on G reg aircraft. Sounds like you were given incorrect information. L3 have long been untrustworthy in many areas. Avoid is my advice. Good luck anyway.
