Kiwi in Europe curious about prospects at 32

[icebird47]

Hi all,

I’m an NZer living in Germany now (wife is German). Taking the move as an opportunity to have a career reset. Currently a mountain guide, have had a lot of fun but it’s not sustainable long term for a number of reasons and I’m a bit over it. I’ve always loved flying, got my PPL in NZ a few years ago, around 120hrs.

I’m considering taking flying to the next level, but have some concerns. I currently have residency, but it’s not going to be permanent for a few years. For all cadetships I have come across this means I’m currently ineligible. Also seems like my existing hours and PPL are near useless here with many ATOs?

Obviously it’s a huge financial commitment to jump in to a flying career. I’m 32 and married, so trying to ensure I really have a good shot at making this work before taking the plunge.

Do temporary residents stand a chance getting a flying job of any type in Europe? Are permanent residents (once I get it) disadvantaged majorly compared to Citizens? What sort of opportunities are there to build hours initially since cadetships aren’t an option for me? Are there any pilot career advisors/councillors that people are aware of to help me navigate my somewhat unique circumstances?

I’m not attached to the idea of airline flying, and would prioritise flexibility in lifestyle and work location over pay given my circumstances and stage of life.

Keen on any advice or suggestions on next steps investigating my options, any and all appreciated.

Cheers

[WindyTurtle]

I can't comment on the piloting bit but since your wife is German and you live in Germany, do you think you could apply for a German passport? Section 12 of the Nationality Act in Germany states that generally, you must renounce your previous citizenship to be naturalised in Germany (they don't like dual-citizenship for outsiders it seems), however it's worth seeking professional advice in case there are any other routes. Since Kiwis are part of the British Commonwealth, maybe you can get some kind of visa for the UK if that interests you otherwise?

[Warlock1]

I was in the same boat coming from Canada to Germany and here are few things I learned along the way:
- Long journey ahead for EASA license. Mentally and financially it’s going to be burden and if you choose to do it in Germany as opposed to ex. Greece, Poland etc, it will cost you an arm and a leg. Your PPL means next to nothing in EASA. Some of your hours may be seen as an experience in some of the EASA countries but you will have to go through the whole process once again, including writing the dreaded ATPL Exams.
- Your residency, no matter if permanent, temporary or even an EU residency (eligible few years after permanent) doesn’t mean anything in other EU countries. You must apply for a residency in any other country you get a job offer from, provided an employer is even willing to offer you the job over 200 other EU citizens waiting in line.
- Germany passed a dual citizenship law recently which will come into effect in June. I think you are eligible to apply for it after living in Germany for 5 years or so. With a German passport your chances in other EU countries dramatically increases but by the time you go through all the licensing and citizenship processes, you will be in your 40s, competing against a guy in his early 20s, willing to work anywhere for the lowest pay.
- Until you get your citizenship, your license and residency allows you to work in Germany only and speaking from an experience, German aviation community is extremely conservative. Even with a type rating and multiple FI ratings, I couldn’t even get a job as a VFR instructor.
In no way I am trying to discourage you from achieving your dream. I am only sharing what I experienced. May be a different outcome for you but I really doubt the outcome would be that much different from what I went through.
Best of luck regardless

[rudestuff]

Originally Posted by icebird47

Also seems like my existing hours and PPL are near useless here with many ATOs?

Obviously it’s a huge financial commitment to jump in to a flying career.

What sort of opportunities are there to build hours initially since cadetships aren’t an option for me?

I’m not attached to the idea of airline flying, and would prioritise flexibility in lifestyle and work location over pay given my circumstances and stage of life.

Not at all - for the modular route and hour is an hour and a PPL is a PPL.

You're already half way there - the next step for you should be to get an EASA class one medical and take the ATPL exams - then you'll be 75% of the way there for an investment of about €5000

Cadetships are the ONLY way to build hours - once you have your license you'll get your first job as an FO and you'll be considered a cadet as far as the airline is concerned. Maybe there's some confusion about what cadet means.

'Flexibility in lifestyle and work location' are mandatory when looking for a cadet pilot job - and your wife needs to understand that.

[nomilk]

Originally Posted by rudestuff

once you have your license you'll get your first job as an FO and you'll be considered a cadet as far as the airline is concerned. Maybe there's some confusion about what cadet means.

FO for which airline? European airlines want the right to work in (all of) the EU, he has only residency in one country.

[rudestuff]

Originally Posted by nomilk

FO for which airline? European airlines want the right to work in (all of) the EU, he has only residency in one country.

Do they? I'm not too familiar so I didnt specifically address the residency issue. An EU passport is likely 5 years away, but German residency should give you access to German airlines, no? And wouldn't chosing an EU citizen over a German resident would be discrimination if they are both qualified to do the job? The downside to residency vs passport is limiting yourself to one country.

[nomilk]

Eurowings, easyJet etc all require the unrestricted right to live and work in the EU and Switzerland.

[rudestuff]

Originally Posted by nomilk

Eurowings, easyJet etc all require the unrestricted right to live and work in the EU and Switzerland.

Actually easyJet says UK, EU OR Switzerland. Which makes sense if they have bases in all those places, but it's not a legal requirement and may even be waivable. There are also still companies in Germany that will employ non-EU German-resident pilots. If you want to try the UK, Kiwis under 35 can get a 2 year youth mobility visa and, once qualified, airline pilots are also eligible for Skilled work visas in the UK.

[Warlock1]

Originally Posted by rudestuff

There are also still companies in Germany that will employ non-EU German-resident pilots.

Not unless you are a type rated captain with thousands of hours.

[nomilk]

Yes, but it still says EU. German residency won't get you a job.

[rudestuff]

Not wanting to start a pointless internet argument here but... If a job requires you to be based in Germany and you have German residency (ie the right to live and work there) and you are refused because you do not have full EU citizenship, wouldn't that be discrimination? What's the point of residency if not to be able to work?

[nomilk]

No, because it is an important part of the job that you can be based in any European country. It is of vital interest that the airline can send you to work from other bases, even if only temporarily. That's why Brexit was so bad for British citizens in Europe. If your job was to go to trade shows and visit European customers, you cannot do so anymore without extra work visas, etc.

You are able to work, just not in jobs that require travelling outside your country of residency. If you have residency in Britain, you cannot work in any other country either. Freedom of Movement is only for people with an EU passport.

[Warlock1]

The German residency given to a non EU passport doesn’t automatically give you a visa free access to other countries. You still may have to apply for a visa to the country you are flying before your flight and some times it may take up to weeks to process. An employer doesn’t need this hassle for each scheduling.

[rudestuff]

There is a difference between EU residency, EU citizenship and visa-free travel. If you have German residency then you automatically have visa-free travel for 90/180 within the Schengen zone, plus you can get a visa for travel to everywhere else - exactly like any other pilot would. I'm a Brit and just last week I entered the Schengen zone as crew then flew to another Schengen country as crew. In a non-EU aircraft. With no visa or residency permit so I really don't think visas are a problem.

Granted, for an airline with bases in multiple EU countries being limited to one country only could be a problem, but if you're working for an airline which is only based in Germany there wouldn't be a problem and EU citizenship wouldn't give any extra benefits. I think in that scenario they couldn't justify discrimination. Plus in a pilot shortage they tend to be a bit more flexible.

[nomilk]

You won't get very far, because EU, EEA and German citizens must be treated equal in the job market. That freedom is not extended to 3rd states, even with residency.