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What will a 200h frozen ATPL holder expect?

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What will a 200h frozen ATPL holder expect?

Old 13th Sep 2023, 13:19
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Lightbulb What will a 200h frozen ATPL holder expect?

Hey air people from all over the world. As my username says, I want to fly. But...

About me:
  • 27 years old, turning 28 this year
  • Full time employed with a good salary
  • Living in Germany, still learning the language
  • EU passport holder
  • Flying has always been my dream
  • If I keep my job, I can do modular training without acquiring debt

However, the money question is what can I expect assuming that I do the training and 3 years from now I hold a frozen ATPL with 200 hours on it.
I know competition is fierce, so I don't expect someone to say "you'll find a job in no time, get your TPR funded by the airline, and off you go jetting off to happiness. happy days".
But, realistically, what can I expect? What do people do? How many hours do people usually fly until they get a job?

This part of the puzzle is what I'm missing the most to know, to help me decide if I'm about to burn a whole heap of money on a dream, or not.

I appreciate that many have asked this before with different words & context, but I'll be really happy to read anything you know, want to share, or your experience. It will make a difference.

Thank you
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Old 25th Sep 2023, 23:16
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This may sound a bit discouraging, but it is the reality nowadays. (Especially in Europe).

Most fATPL holders who just graduated from flight school will not get a job in the nearest future. Of course, there will always be someone (maybe 5 %) who gets an airline job relatively quickly by luck and being at the right place at the right time, (and these few pilots are the ones flight schools promote and use as evidence in terms of the "pilot shortage")... However the remaining 95 % will end up working typically in a store or as a ground handler with 120k euros in debt.
You have airlines such as RYR where you will have to pay for the type rating yourself, whossh another 30k euros out of the window.
It also seems like more and more airlines are starting their own cadet-programs.

I wouldn't spend 120 000 euros on an integrated flight school unless I was guaranteed a job afterwards, or if it was government sponsored.

But.. If it really is your dream, go for it! YOLO
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Old 26th Sep 2023, 06:51
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Becoming a pilot requires confidence and determination.. You are asking for reassurance. If there is any doubt there is no doubt. Sorry.
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Old 26th Sep 2023, 08:00
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Originally Posted by Sh1mmyDamper
This may sound a bit discouraging, but it is the reality nowadays. (Especially in Europe).

Most fATPL holders who just graduated from flight school will not get a job in the nearest future. Of course, there will always be someone (maybe 5 %) who gets an airline job relatively quickly by luck and being at the right place at the right time, (and these few pilots are the ones flight schools promote and use as evidence in terms of the "pilot shortage")... However the remaining 95 % will end up working typically in a store or as a ground handler with 120k euros in debt.
You have airlines such as RYR where you will have to pay for the type rating yourself, whossh another 30k euros out of the window.
It also seems like more and more airlines are starting their own cadet-programs.

I wouldn't spend 120 000 euros on an integrated flight school unless I was guaranteed a job afterwards, or if it was government sponsored.

But.. If it really is your dream, go for it! YOLO
Originally Posted by rudestuff
Becoming a pilot requires confidence and determination.. You are asking for reassurance. If there is any doubt there is no doubt. Sorry.
Thanks for both your replies. Re-assurance is something I will provide myself, what I need is realistic outlooks from those who know how much of a struggle it is or may be.

It is my dream, absolutely. I would go down the modular path, keep my day job and incur in 0 debt. But itís not my dream to get rated, be down a lot of money, and not having a path towards a job. This is what I still do not understand -> other than the RYR 30k route, what are people doing to eventually land in the cockpit of an airliner? Or is it just the fact that most never make it there?
Need to think about it, a lot.
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Old 26th Sep 2023, 09:56
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Originally Posted by Iwanttoflybut...
Hey air people from all over the world. As my username says, I want to fly. But...

About me:
  • 27 years old, turning 28 this year
  • Full time employed with a good salary
  • Living in Germany, still learning the language
  • EU passport holder
  • Flying has always been my dream
  • If I keep my job, I can do modular training without acquiring debt

However, the money question is what can I expect assuming that I do the training and 3 years from now I hold a frozen ATPL with 200 hours on it.
I know competition is fierce, so I don't expect someone to say "you'll find a job in no time, get your TPR funded by the airline, and off you go jetting off to happiness. happy days".
But, realistically, what can I expect? What do people do? How many hours do people usually fly until they get a job?

This part of the puzzle is what I'm missing the most to know, to help me decide if I'm about to burn a whole heap of money on a dream, or not.

I appreciate that many have asked this before with different words & context, but I'll be really happy to read anything you know, want to share, or your experience. It will make a difference.

Thank you
Do you have the right to live & work in the UK? Jet2 do an apprentice scheme which takes you on for a ~year across various departments in the business, then pays for your type rating. Having life experience behind you would put you in a good position.
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Old 26th Sep 2023, 10:04
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Originally Posted by Flying Wild
Do you have the right to live & work in the UK? Jet2 do an apprentice scheme which takes you on for a ~year across various departments in the business, then pays for your type rating. Having life experience behind you would put you in a good position.
Thatís quite awesome! I did have UK right to live and work, but no longer since last year. Nonetheless sounds like a great path for people with an UK license to fly G registered machines.
I am also building my strategy to how can I build a network with airlines, and how can I manage a path towards a cockpit. I just want to avoid going in blindly and relying merely on hope.
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Old 26th Sep 2023, 10:21
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Originally Posted by Iwanttoflybut...
Thanks for both your replies. Re-assurance is something I will provide myself, what I need is realistic outlooks from those who know how much of a struggle it is or may be.

It is my dream, absolutely. I would go down the modular path, keep my day job and incur in 0 debt. But itís not my dream to get rated, be down a lot of money, and not having a path towards a job. This is what I still do not understand -> other than the RYR 30k route, what are people doing to eventually land in the cockpit of an airliner? Or is it just the fact that most never make it there?
Need to think about it, a lot.
It is good you're researching as much as you can before applying to any flight school. That's shows you're serious!
Ryanair accepts pretty much "everyone" as long as they pay for the typerating. That is why you see so many fresh fATPL holders starting there, cause Ryanair knows they are desperate for an airline job. Other gets accepted by airlines like Wizz air etc. Some are working as flight instructors, TKI, at Burger King, Lidl etc.
The thing is, most people who start at flight school don't think about the consequences. Most won't even make it to the big airliners. And also, don't fall for the term: pilot-shortage, often used by flight schools to lure students. There is nothing called pilot-shortage, there are more than enough jobless pilots with 1000 of hours who are ready to work..

However, if you are dedicated towards becoming an airline pilot, and give everything you have, you will eventually land in the cockpit! Don't forget that.
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Old 26th Sep 2023, 11:07
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Whatever your decide to do, you won't find a much better time in history to be a pilot. This is about as good as it gets.
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Old 28th Sep 2023, 16:18
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Thank you all! The messages were very helpful.
I am 27, I have no kids and fresh out of a relationship. It feels like the best time to start this adventure, if I am ever too. I am not too old yet to do this and still think about having a family.
For now, my plan remains to do the PPL, network and research the industry, and then decide to/not to continue.
Still waiting for my criminal record (or lack thereof ) certificates to come through so that I can register at the school.
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Old 28th Sep 2023, 20:36
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Good luck on your journey. Try to make as much experience as possible and network with as many people as you can. It can help you along the line.
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Old 29th Sep 2023, 17:58
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Go for it.

I was around your age when I started my PPL, freshly free from a relationship and enjoyed my time learning to fly.

Iím now 35, married and have 2x kids, and although I have my PPL Iím struggling to think if I could/should self fund my way to fATPL.
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Old 4th Oct 2023, 11:41
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Originally Posted by rudestuff
Whatever your decide to do, you won't find a much better time in history to be a pilot. This is about as good as it gets.
What makes you think that? Hopefully you are right, but I don't see same needs or pilots shortage in Europe as it is currently happening in US.
35 yo here, in the middle of ATPL theory pleasure
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Old 4th Oct 2023, 13:04
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Originally Posted by Aviator172s
What makes you think that? Hopefully you are right, but I don't see same needs or pilots shortage in Europe as it is currently happening in US.
35 yo here, in the middle of ATPL theory pleasure
UK Airlines offering fully sponsored positions for starters. They don't do that when they have tons of applicants. Plus the trickle down (up?) effect of US Airlines sucking up pilots, a 4th ME carrier starting up, India ordering a crap load of airplanes etc...
Take everything with a pinch of salt and remember that not everyone is cut out to be an airline pilot. There are plenty of people with a licence who will never be selected for various reasons, and they will tend to have the loudest voices.
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Old 4th Oct 2023, 20:18
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Originally Posted by rudestuff
UK Airlines offering fully sponsored positions for starters. They don't do that when they have tons of applicants. Plus the trickle down (up?) effect of US Airlines sucking up pilots, a 4th ME carrier starting up, India ordering a crap load of airplanes etc...
Take everything with a pinch of salt and remember that not everyone is cut out to be an airline pilot. There are plenty of people with a licence who will never be selected for various reasons, and they will tend to have the loudest voices.
Yes, you are right about those facts. I guess its not possible to fly in the UK with an EASA licence, but would be a great opportunity tbh.
Hopefully when I get the license, I'll be appealing for an airliner , and previous work/life experience, degree and maturity outweigh age vs a 20 something.
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Old 5th Oct 2023, 08:09
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"previous work/life experience, degree and maturity outweigh age vs a 20 something."

Not always - some of them want mouldable personalties to the company line - you would be an independent thinker.
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Old 5th Oct 2023, 09:12
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Originally Posted by paco
"previous work/life experience, degree and maturity outweigh age vs a 20 something."

Not always - some of them want mouldable personalties to the company line - you would be an independent thinker.
Yes, I understand that. Plus, poor terms and conditions acceptance is also beneficial for youngsters I reckon.
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Old 5th Oct 2023, 09:34
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If you've got 200 hours it would be a lie to say that you have 800. But if you have 800 it would be true to say that you have 200. With that in mind I think it's reasonable to presume that certain airlines for the aforementioned reasons prefer:
1) 20-year old
2) 200-hour pilots who are
3) fresh out of flight school.

For these reasons a 45 year old or a flight instructor of high hour PPL might be at a disadvantage on paper.
As a long term strategy I recommend doing CBIR SE, MEP and CPL-SE then looking at the market. You can always do the MEIR upgrade and MCC in a couple of weeks if the job market looks bouyant, or you can wait with nothingnothing current.

When it comes to applying you can:

1) have no age or identifying dates on your CV
2) have 200 hours
3) have an MEIR and MCC from last week.
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Old 5th Oct 2023, 15:33
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Originally Posted by rudestuff
If you've got 200 hours it would be a lie to say that you have 800. But if you have 800 it would be true to say that you have 200. With that in mind I think it's reasonable to presume that certain airlines for the aforementioned reasons prefer:
1) 20-year old
2) 200-hour pilots who are
3) fresh out of flight school.

For these reasons a 45 year old or a flight instructor of high hour PPL might be at a disadvantage on paper.
As a long term strategy I recommend doing CBIR SE, MEP and CPL-SE then looking at the market. You can always do the MEIR upgrade and MCC in a couple of weeks if the job market looks bouyant, or you can wait with nothingnothing current.

When it comes to applying you can:

1) have no age or identifying dates on your CV
2) have 200 hours
3) have an MEIR and MCC from last week.
That seems a bit surprising for me, since I have seen many airlines coming to ATOs and hire a good bunch of FIs straight away, leaving the ATO in question in a delicate situation due to a lack of instructors...
What about being somewhere in the middle (35 yo), like me?
Anyhow, I prefer to focus on what I have control at the moment, which are my grades, exams, flying skills, enjoying the present moment feeling fortunate with what I am doing, and doing some networking in the meanwhile... (philosopher mode ON).
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Old 15th Oct 2023, 23:26
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Go for it my friend, you won’t regret it.

I started my CPL MEIR at age 30, modular after saving to reduce the debt I needed to incur. Finished training in 2019, applied to four UK airlines with my 200hr fATPL and was very lucky enough to have three job offers within three months. Of all the bunch that I trained with at my flying school in the UK, 80% secured employment within the first year. The rest within 18 months. We ended up at in no specific order, Ryanair, Wizz, Loganair, Woodgate, Jet2, and a couple of other places.

The airline I am currently at we have taken on plenty of 200h pilots within the last year or two and will continue to do so. There is a large amount of turnover at the moment as pilots are building experience and moving on to different things. There is by no means a shortage as supply far outweighs demand, however there are lots of opportunities out there for low hour pilots.

Networking helps at some airlines, not so much at others. However it can’t hurt to try.

Good luck, keep doing plenty of research and stay positive.
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Old 16th Oct 2023, 18:19
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Originally Posted by Ronaldsway Radar
Finished training in 2019, applied to four UK airlines with my 200hr fATPL and was very lucky enough to have three job offers within three months. Of all the bunch that I trained with at my flying school in the UK, 80% secured employment within the first year. The rest within 18 months. We ended up at in no specific order, Ryanair, Wizz, Loganair, Woodgate, Jet2, and a couple of other places.
Do you mind letting us know how many of that bunch ended up paying for their own type rating? As OP mentioned in the theme of the original post, before proceeding with training it would be a good idea to know if there are job opportunities out there that will offer a type rating, or if it needs to definitely be factored into the training budget.
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