Advice on opportunity. What do YOU think?

[STANDTO]

Righto! I've been skulking around these forums for too long. Time for some action!

I'm 34. married with 2 kids, splendid home, good lifestyle, job that pays well (see profile) BUT, can't get it out of my system.

Yup, I want to fly commercially. As do so many, I know! Recently, my old man died at 61, which perhaps made me look at life and say, well, time and opportunity are passing you by. What are you going to do about it?

I don't just want to take a PPL either. With no disrespect to any one tha does fly for pleasure, its not my bag.

I've got to be honest as well, my aspirations aren't that high. A nice little regional job, six to eight sectors a day, and being able to maintain my base here on fraggle rock. I know that narrows down my list of likely employers.

Whereas I have the utmost admiration for all those who go through abject hardship to attain their dream, I am perhaps a little bit more of a non-risk taker. I wouldn't want to put my family in a position where they had to go without just so I can do what I really want to do with my life. Shucks, just call me an ol' romantic at heart!

I can cope with the academic sides of things pretty well, and enjoy studying, so I'm not to worried about the groundschool side of things. However, I am ab initio. Cash, should not be a problem. The goal is, to be able to walk up to an employer to look at starting some sort of right hand seat employment.

so, within the parameters below, can someone come up with an action plan, with hours, exams, costs, timescales and the like. Look at it as an Open University type approach to things!


1. Don't want to give up work

2. Training in spare time is not a problem, either in the air or at the desk

3. Cash shouldn't be an issue


Look forward to hearing from you. Either drop me an email, or if you think it will be of use to others, post it here.

Thanks

[scroggs]

Hmm. Well, subject to your medical and that you have the required aptitude (I recommend taking the GAPAN aptitude tests before you lay out on the training), getting the fATPL should be just a matter of time, if the money is a given. But then what? There are very few jobs around at the moment, and unless there's a shock improvement in the UK/European economy - and no Gulf War 2 - I don't really see things improving rapidly over the next two or three years. So, whether you like it or not, you ARE taking a big risk. There is no well-trodden and all-but-guaranteed path to a RHS, regional or not.

Of course, I assume you will always have the option of resuming your current career, but you have to accept that your £50k could well be a lost investment, especially if you are not prepared to risk your family's living standards. I can obviously understand why, but there is something to the suggestion that those who are prepared to risk most will gain the most.

Anyway, read the thread below about Ryanair and EZ recruiting for some very good advice and information on the current state of the jobs market and the desperation of those currently trying to scale our particular career cliff.

[tailscrape]

Good advice?

Yes, hmmmm.

I think it will be a risky time for quite a while to train. It has always been a risk, but there we go.

If you did give up work and did an integrated course, it would be TWO years from now before you have the licence.

If you keep working and do a modular route, I guess you can DOUBLE the timescale.

You would then be 38 or 39, that is around the cut off point or so it would seem.

Adding to that, you seem to only want to live on Fraggle Rock.

That really limits your options.

Adding all your circumstances up, I would say don't bother. You will probably be left unfulfilled.

If you really wanted to fly, you would just go do it and not put too many demands on it.

Sorry if you don't like my opinion.

[STANDTO]

Cheers Scroggs

I take it then, that the jobs market really did go belly up after 9/11? Like you say, its a 50k gamble, but if I continued in my current line of work and just kept plodding away, then I've always got it. I have a thought that, as with so many other things, a crisis will arrive some time in the future where all the clouds of doubt which exist as to the future of commercial aviation at the moment, will blow away to reveal a real lack of qualified aircrew. Who knows, and who can say.

Tailscrape

Your advice is equally as sound - I value your opinion. as I say above, who knows what the future holds. THe Frag caveat does limit my options, but therein lies another gamble. If things continue to improve here as they are doing, so will the need for regional air travel improve. Also, there are a number of other operating bases within striking distance.

Then again, £50 k buys a huge fridgeful of beer

Keep the views coming folks. You'll either talk me in, or out, but at least I'll have had the best advice..........

[tailscrape]

Now come on, you didn't mention a HUGE fridge full of beer first time round did you?

F/ck the flying. Get the beer. I'm on my way!!!!!

[STANDTO]

Can you get a 757 into Ronaldsway?

[saker]

While the last couple of replys are quite right to point out the risk involved, of which im sure your aware, there are more pieces to the puzzle.

Only you know if this is something you HAVE to do.

Further couple of points; your desire to maintain your familys current standard of living may need reconsidering, change would be inevitable, although temporary.

How understanding is your boss? my former boss gave me the time off i needed paid/unpaid.

If you want it enough you'll face the risk. The majority of us faced certain risks, i personally would do so again. Nothing could ever beat going to 'work' to fly.

[Elvis21]

Give a little more info. I think a PPL would be a nice idea to see if you actually have the ability and keeness to fly. After all, some guys who say all they have ever dreamed of is being a pilot, hate the thought of being in a 152.

Fly first, career after

[STANDTO]

more wise words. I think the PPL is a good idea.

I can do things such as career breaks and so on. I also appreciate that there will have to be some drop in standards of living and so on. Some people risk houses and the like. Not really my game.

[jocko0102]

Im 34 in a secure well paid job.I plan on going to Jerez next year to do my ATPL.
Now i dont have mortgage/wife/kids etc so it makes it easier for me but if you want to challenge yourself and you are not afraid of investing the money with no immediate pay back then go for it.
However if you start to doubt yourself too much and the effect it will have on you and your family then maybe just buy the beer instead.
I dont mind the risk but its a lot of dosh when you have a family.

[redsnail]

To be honest, I feel that you shouldn't do it.
By all means get the PPL. You can do a lot of private flying with 50K.
You are justifiably concerned about affecting your lifestyle and family. Fair enough. However, for the first couple of years in this industry you will not earn much money. You will be lucky to be earning 20K/year. This assumes you get a flying job after the course. Is this enough to keep the family happy?
Have a look at the companies based at Fraggle Rock and ask about their minimum hours required and pay scales. This will give you a very clear idea if it is feasable.
Just because an operator is based or has bases at Fraggle Rock doesn't mean they will be there in 2-5 years time. Have a read in this site and you'll see many bases in remotish areas being closed. Don't fall for "I'll cross that bridge when it happens". Sit down now and discuss it with your wife.
Write it all down and then make a decision.
Sounds tough and harsh but as a captain, that is your job.
It sounds like you have taken the rose tinted glasses off. Keep them off.
If you do decide to do it. In your situation, I would go modular. Minimises your risk. Do the medicals etc and get a PPL. Do the ATPL theory distance learning so you can keep working. You are looking at finishing 2-3 years from now.
Remember this, the industry is cyclical by nature and extremely sensitive to world economic events. Every 10 years it cycles from boom to bust.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The fraggle rock only caveat is too limiting unless you can get some prior ecouragement from 'them' that they will take you on as you are a long term resident and will stay with them for your career.

There are thousands of bloked out there with licenses willing and able to relocate anywhere in the country tomorrow for a regional airline job. You are going to exclude yourself from 99% of potential first jobs available by sticking to the rock.

An already hard task is therefore something of a Mission Impossible. UNLESS you have an IN to the regional airline in question on Fraggle Rock...

I would also recommend doing a PPL first:

a) You might be useless at flying

b) You might be OK but find the whole thing a lot less fun than you imagined

c) The hours spent can more or less be totally recovered on any future Modular or Integrated course therefore its a FREE risk reduction exercise.

Good luck,

WWW

[tailscrape]

STANDTO,

I don't know how long the Ronaldsway runway is, but the 757 is exceptionally powerful, and has amazing braking capacity.

An empty aircraft, full brakes landing gets in most places. 5000' runway at Skiathos springs to mind.......

As for an empty plane, full chat,brakes on until stabilised engines takeoff.......will probably lift off by the 1000' markers (well not quite, but you get the picture!)

Only problem is, the fridge won't be big enough on a 757 in charter fit!

[STANDTO]

I only had your safety at heart Tailscrape!

So, the preferred option seems to be the following:

1. Make enqs with perhaps the larger operators on Frag (BACE and BEA) to see what their thoughts are, but don't rule out having to work from elsewhere. The advantage I DO have is that I am here and house prices have gone, and continue to go silly (I paid 83 for mine four years ago and would now clear 240). It is the same as my current employment. Anyone wishing to transfer from the UK struggles because of this. A FO on about 20K is going to struggle to rent let alone buy, and will most likely be paying off a huge loan of some sort anyway. Just a thought, but it has to be a consideration.

2. Do PPL and see if I can cope/really do want to

3. Enrol and complete ATPL theory course whilst accruing hours

complete flying requirements in due course over 3 years.

This can't ultimately be more demanding in terms of work required than a decent part-time degree?

If anyone wants to knock a rough syllabus together, please do. That way I can do the sums etc and try and get things off the ground


Cheers for all the help so far.

[flyerstar]

I would deinitely recommend doing a PPL before you bash on. Moreover have you investigated modular options? If you can get a lot of flying done before its useful, so i would also go for a night rating apart from a PPL.

[tom_higginson]

If the passion is there you will find a way. Me, I'm only 17 and getting into commercial flying and have been through my own ups and downs. I literally cried after being rejected by the RAF because of hayfever. So STANDTO no offence, but it really annoys me when people are so picky about the ways in which they become a pilot (especially as you have the money), I would risk my life to become a pilot.

Don't worry readers I'm not crazy

[STANDTO]

Hey Tom, best of luck.

I hate to use cliches, but been there done that and got the t-shirt. I actually went to Cranwell after accepting a ground commission, bu they managed to break my legs (literally)

I am now a lot older and wiser, and if you are ever blessed with children you will realise where I am coming from. Stay single and 'selfish' and you will realise your goal in a very short space of time.

The older you get, the bigger the fall if it all goes wrong. THAT, is why I have to build my path with a f@ckin big safety net, cos my vision isn't all that is at stake.

Once again, hope it comes your way

[Pandora]

Standto,

a lot of pilots commute on staff travel in order to ensure that they can live where they want to. I fly a lot of the domestic routes and it is a rare day when I don't carry flight crew and cabin crew for BA, virgin, BMI and the likes. When you get into aviation the world really does shrink. So don't be so set on a job in IOM. However I do think you maight be getting a bit ahead of yourself saying that you want to fly for a living and a PPL just won't fulfil you when you haven't even acquired the aforementioned PPL. After all it is only money that limits the size and type of aircraft you can fly for fun. Just ask John Travolta . I would also add to you that it can be done. I know men in their 30s and 40s with a wife and kids who have gone after their dream and succeeded but it was hard for them. They did integrated course with me at OATS and their children would telephone them every night asking when their daddy was coming home. These are all things you need to consider. Finally - 6 to 8 sectors a day..... easy? Are you mad? 4 full domestics in a day and I'm a zombie.





Tom,

Don't say you would risk your life for the opportunity to fly. No one will think you brave or clever if you come out with this sort of remark. At 17 you have bags of time. I didn't even travel on an aircraft till I was 20.
Peolpe become picky because ultimatley being a pilot is a job, and there IS more to life than just your job. Friends, family, hobbies, home all become important and you are foolish if you agree to sacrifice all of these things for the sake of flying. I wouldn't want to give up my job, but at my BA interview I was asked my reasons for being so keen on OATS and not Michigan. I stated that family support was important to me and that I did not want to spend a year or more in a different continent to my husband. I was duly offered a place at OATS. The poor man who stated that he would train and work anywhere for the opportunity to work for BA was sent to Michigan. His new wife was not very happy and neither was he.
So be enthusiastic, keep trying and remember not to belittle other peoples aspirations. One day you will be 34 witha wife, kids and home. Hopefully you will ahve what you want, and not be in Standto's difficult situation.

[STANDTO]

Thanks Pandora

I believe there are a few heavy drivers here on fraggle rock who do much the same as you suggest. Certainly the network from here does open up a lot of opportunities.

The reason I dont want to just fly for fun is just me, really. I need a vocation change, not just a diversion. My career bores the backside off me, which isn't due to where I do it, because it did in the bright lights and big cities too. Many years ago I thought I had let the aviation thing go. I didn't, and it has just been festering away ever since.

If I can find a cost effective and efficient route to take me to a FATPL in the next 3 or so years whilst I continue to earn decent money,then I will have the best of both worlds - a roof over my head, a well supported family, and with a bit of luck when the clouds of doubt start blowing away from aviation, be able to gently step from one career to the next. In the meantime, I will have had plenty of recreational fun learning my new trade in the 3 dimensional classroom.

Early days yet, but we shall see

Thanks again

[tom_higginson]

pandora,

The thing about me risking my life was not ment to be taken too literally, and I was not trying to sound clever or brave.

I think you misunderstood me.