Are YOU getting what you paid for????
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Are YOU getting what you paid for????
My query?
As many of you are all at different stages of training or about to begin, no doubt you are resonably happy with your training if not your in the process of changing elsewhere for one reason or another. However to a newbie-innocent to the ways of flight training how can you be fully assured the training you are receiving is correct or sufficient. Of course some students will always be better then others and its persumed that unless you pass the flight test or written your not capable enough to indulge in your new found skill. The instructors encountered are of all different levels, even though if you stick with the same one and are happy enough, he/she may be lacking knowledge that another instructor may have to pass on to you, but your not to know. You may just get enough to pass from one instructor or FTO or you may get the instruction that puts you in a different league all together. Is it the luck of the draw if one instructor hammers away the necessity of trim on final for example and another does not place much of an importance on it, If your fresh faced and new to the game you may have just missed a vital "TIP" or instruction, and plod along oblivious.
My only idea on ensuring proper instruction is to study as much as possible talk to other students on their experiences and KNOW what the proper norm is, and without stepping on too many toes point this out to an instructor during my constant question time.
Is this arrogance or should every student be more then willing to just shut up and listen, without being the all knowing arrogant kid how can you ensure your getting what you paid for PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTION??????????
Any views people.
Real men land where they want 
As many of you are all at different stages of training or about to begin, no doubt you are resonably happy with your training if not your in the process of changing elsewhere for one reason or another. However to a newbie-innocent to the ways of flight training how can you be fully assured the training you are receiving is correct or sufficient. Of course some students will always be better then others and its persumed that unless you pass the flight test or written your not capable enough to indulge in your new found skill. The instructors encountered are of all different levels, even though if you stick with the same one and are happy enough, he/she may be lacking knowledge that another instructor may have to pass on to you, but your not to know. You may just get enough to pass from one instructor or FTO or you may get the instruction that puts you in a different league all together. Is it the luck of the draw if one instructor hammers away the necessity of trim on final for example and another does not place much of an importance on it, If your fresh faced and new to the game you may have just missed a vital "TIP" or instruction, and plod along oblivious.
My only idea on ensuring proper instruction is to study as much as possible talk to other students on their experiences and KNOW what the proper norm is, and without stepping on too many toes point this out to an instructor during my constant question time.
Is this arrogance or should every student be more then willing to just shut up and listen, without being the all knowing arrogant kid how can you ensure your getting what you paid for PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTION??????????
Any views people.
Real men land where they want
Join Date: May 2002
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You have pretty much got it figured out already!
All you can do is talk to as many people as possible, and study as much as you can, its luck of the draw.
I always found schools placed emphasis on having the same instructor all the way through. I found this to be rubbish and where i finished my ppl I had any number of instructors, some i found great in the circuit and others at nav etc. We were also encouraged to politely request a different instructor with ops should any conflicts of personality arise or you simply didnt feel that your particular tutor was as good at any given area of the sylabus.
You should never be afraid to speak up and request or even demand what you require from an fto. at the end of the day its your money and if you are considering a proffesional career you will be required to make such awkward decisions.
All the best with it
RED WINGS
All you can do is talk to as many people as possible, and study as much as you can, its luck of the draw.
I always found schools placed emphasis on having the same instructor all the way through. I found this to be rubbish and where i finished my ppl I had any number of instructors, some i found great in the circuit and others at nav etc. We were also encouraged to politely request a different instructor with ops should any conflicts of personality arise or you simply didnt feel that your particular tutor was as good at any given area of the sylabus.
You should never be afraid to speak up and request or even demand what you require from an fto. at the end of the day its your money and if you are considering a proffesional career you will be required to make such awkward decisions.
All the best with it
RED WINGS
From the other side of the fence students wanting to chop and change instructors all the time is a royal pain in the backside and usually detrimental to them.
Its a two way street remember. There is an onus on you to get on with your instructor just as much as there is on him to get on with you. Don't think you are going to like every Skipper you jump in a flightdeck for 11 hours with...
What often happens is student A starts boasting about how great his instructor is, top chap, never wrong, great laugh etc. Student B hears this and frets his instructor isn't as good. He wants to try the other instructor. Students C, D and E see this happening and want to get in on a good thing.
Suddenly one instructor is flavour of the month and everyone wants a transfer and starts feeling cheated by being with their present instructor.
I have been in that situation myself both whereby my students wanted to fly with another instructor and whereby most of the student population were scrambling to fly with me. Its all rubbish.
As a general tip I suggest you drop any customer attitude you have with your flying instructor. I know you are paying a small fortune and sometimes its frustrating not to be treated as such.
However, the most productive strategy for you is to extract the maximum possible effort out of your Instructor. This is best achieved by being nice to them, flattering their egos and generally being a loyal and diligent pupil. If you can coax your knackered, harassed and broke Flying Instructor to really care about you, to go that extra mile every day, then you will receive excellent instruction from nearly every one out there.
Its true.
Think of it as your first experience of CRM. Getting what you want out of a crew member without causing conflict.
Cheers,
WWW
Its a two way street remember. There is an onus on you to get on with your instructor just as much as there is on him to get on with you. Don't think you are going to like every Skipper you jump in a flightdeck for 11 hours with...
What often happens is student A starts boasting about how great his instructor is, top chap, never wrong, great laugh etc. Student B hears this and frets his instructor isn't as good. He wants to try the other instructor. Students C, D and E see this happening and want to get in on a good thing.
Suddenly one instructor is flavour of the month and everyone wants a transfer and starts feeling cheated by being with their present instructor.
I have been in that situation myself both whereby my students wanted to fly with another instructor and whereby most of the student population were scrambling to fly with me. Its all rubbish.
As a general tip I suggest you drop any customer attitude you have with your flying instructor. I know you are paying a small fortune and sometimes its frustrating not to be treated as such.
However, the most productive strategy for you is to extract the maximum possible effort out of your Instructor. This is best achieved by being nice to them, flattering their egos and generally being a loyal and diligent pupil. If you can coax your knackered, harassed and broke Flying Instructor to really care about you, to go that extra mile every day, then you will receive excellent instruction from nearly every one out there.
Its true.
Think of it as your first experience of CRM. Getting what you want out of a crew member without causing conflict.
Cheers,
WWW
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My 2 cents...
Work hard. Try to get on with everyone, particularly your instructor.
If anyone asks, if your happy with him, your instructor is 'fine' but don't say much more than this, unless you're talking to the Head of Training, in which case your instructor is utterly wonderful - you can cash in the brownie points earned by putting feathers in your instructor's cap later.
Try to manufacture the odd lesson or two with another instructor without offending your main one; this can be achieved by booking one when you know your instructor is going to his granny's funeral/out on the p1ss with his mate over from Australia. The reason this is instructor 'B' might be better at teaching your particular problem area than instructor 'A' - unless you experiment with instructors, you won't know.
Imagine you're your instructor's patient, not a customer. However, when it comes to dealing with the guy behind the front desk, you're the boss. Don't accept being shunted in and out of slots you don't want to be, and query any charges you're not happy with.
Don't let anyone think you're a push over.
Work hard. Try to get on with everyone, particularly your instructor.
If anyone asks, if your happy with him, your instructor is 'fine' but don't say much more than this, unless you're talking to the Head of Training, in which case your instructor is utterly wonderful - you can cash in the brownie points earned by putting feathers in your instructor's cap later.
Try to manufacture the odd lesson or two with another instructor without offending your main one; this can be achieved by booking one when you know your instructor is going to his granny's funeral/out on the p1ss with his mate over from Australia. The reason this is instructor 'B' might be better at teaching your particular problem area than instructor 'A' - unless you experiment with instructors, you won't know.
Imagine you're your instructor's patient, not a customer. However, when it comes to dealing with the guy behind the front desk, you're the boss. Don't accept being shunted in and out of slots you don't want to be, and query any charges you're not happy with.
Don't let anyone think you're a push over.
Last edited by Gin Slinger; 30th Jul 2002 at 10:33.
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WWW seems to have summed it up well, at least from my point of view as a student of many different UK/US civy/mil systems. I have been treated the same in all, paying or being paid to be there - do as your told, pitch up on time for the lesson and know what you need to know at that time and most instructors will work hard for you. If you feel you are not getting on with the instructor or the instruction is below par, talk to the CFI.
Best of luck!
Best of luck!
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However, when it comes to dealing with the guy behind the front desk, you're the boss.
BM.
stiletto psychopath mk4
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WWW,
You advise people to drop their customer attitude when dealing with instructors. I beg to differ. I know that most (all?) instructors are poorly paid, overstretched, etc. Yet most (not all) of the ones I've flown with manage to retain their enthusiasm and professionalism for the job.
But there are exceptions. When my first instructor left, I was handed over to another one. He turned up for my first lesson with him an hour late. In the course of our (rather grumpy) conversation, I found out that he'd just been told that he was receiving a pay cut - had to work five days but was only being paid for four (three guesses which company he works for!). So he'd gone to have a sulk and mull the news over. OK, I understand. But over the next half a dozen lessons his motivation never improved, and rather than looking forward to my lessons I began to dread them. So I asked to change instructor.
My new instructor couldn't have been more different. Despite the fact that he'd been there longer and was equally affected by the pay cut, he was dedicated, professional and always gave 100 per cent to his students. If I'd stayed with my second instructor I think I'd still be doing circuits now!
So I think you should expect a minimum standard for the money you are paying. Yes, you have to be able to get on with different people as part of CRM. The difference is that with CRM someone else is paying you both to be there, but as a student you are paying for both of you!
You advise people to drop their customer attitude when dealing with instructors. I beg to differ. I know that most (all?) instructors are poorly paid, overstretched, etc. Yet most (not all) of the ones I've flown with manage to retain their enthusiasm and professionalism for the job.
But there are exceptions. When my first instructor left, I was handed over to another one. He turned up for my first lesson with him an hour late. In the course of our (rather grumpy) conversation, I found out that he'd just been told that he was receiving a pay cut - had to work five days but was only being paid for four (three guesses which company he works for!). So he'd gone to have a sulk and mull the news over. OK, I understand. But over the next half a dozen lessons his motivation never improved, and rather than looking forward to my lessons I began to dread them. So I asked to change instructor.
My new instructor couldn't have been more different. Despite the fact that he'd been there longer and was equally affected by the pay cut, he was dedicated, professional and always gave 100 per cent to his students. If I'd stayed with my second instructor I think I'd still be doing circuits now!
So I think you should expect a minimum standard for the money you are paying. Yes, you have to be able to get on with different people as part of CRM. The difference is that with CRM someone else is paying you both to be there, but as a student you are paying for both of you!
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Apple,
Sure it doesn't represent all students. But my point is that if a student doesn't find their instructor professional and motivating, why shouldn't they ask to change rather than sitting there paying out shedloads of money for poor service (or worse still being put off flying for life), just because they've been advised not to show 'attitude'?
Four out of the five instructors I've flown with have been excellent and a pleasure to fly with. But I don't see why I should be expected to fork out over £100 an hour for poor service and not do anything about it. I wouldn't put up with it in any other industry, so why should flying training be any different?
Sure it doesn't represent all students. But my point is that if a student doesn't find their instructor professional and motivating, why shouldn't they ask to change rather than sitting there paying out shedloads of money for poor service (or worse still being put off flying for life), just because they've been advised not to show 'attitude'?
Four out of the five instructors I've flown with have been excellent and a pleasure to fly with. But I don't see why I should be expected to fork out over £100 an hour for poor service and not do anything about it. I wouldn't put up with it in any other industry, so why should flying training be any different?
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Flight training
Baldie man i took my business elswhere from a well formatted school on this site from the US and got a load of verbal abuse on e mail from him and have it to prove it
When i did take my business to a reputable establishment the difference was amazing, progreess checks with another instructor (CFI) at regulated intervals for my CPL so i always looked after that at schools and spoke to a few people first.
So choose carefully and progress checks are good, for the instructors and the students too 
When i did take my business to a reputable establishment the difference was amazing, progreess checks with another instructor (CFI) at regulated intervals for my CPL so i always looked after that at schools and spoke to a few people first.
So choose carefully and progress checks are good, for the instructors and the students too
