W M U
Join Date: Jun 2002
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This morning at a meeting with all of the College of Aviation staff of WMU, the Dean of the faculty effectively ended WMU's involvment in JAA training. Courses that are there at the present would be finished as in their contracts.
At the time there were potential students from the UK looking around the facility to see whether they would come to an advertised course starting in October. The management would not warn these people before they spent wasted money on fares and accomodation. This is just another ongoing example of the nature of the of the WMU management.
I would imagine that there will be a lot of CVs being updated this weekend.
At the time there were potential students from the UK looking around the facility to see whether they would come to an advertised course starting in October. The management would not warn these people before they spent wasted money on fares and accomodation. This is just another ongoing example of the nature of the of the WMU management.
I would imagine that there will be a lot of CVs being updated this weekend.
Join Date: Oct 2000
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I remember a while ago Pan am flight academy used to offer JAA training (MODULAR) but they soon gave that up, and now although some time later WMU apparently have done the same. Is this decision by WMU an isolated incident due to some internal situation or is this to be a continueing trend for other FTO's in the states offering JAA training. Does the task of offering JAA training abroad take more resources from these FTO's then can be anticipated. I also understood EFT florida sourced some caa/jaa examiners from WMU although I could be wrong as ben and trevor have that covered but if its true will they also suffer?
Some many questions and so few answers!
Some many questions and so few answers!
Join Date: Feb 2002
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This all seems a bit startling. West Michigan University's standards appeared very respectable. After all, it was one of the 3 colleges that BA used, up till Sep 11, when BA stopped cadetships. WMU was up there with Oxford and Jerez.
With absolutely no knowledge of the actual situation, it seems to me that when a college like this stops offering a course, it's probably for one of 3 reasons:
1. They weren't attracting enough JAA students. Losing the BA contract might have been the final straw to make it uneconomic.
2. Operating in the USA, they had difficulty in attracting sufficient high-calibre JAA-qualified instructors.
3. They didn't feel that it was worth continuing in the face of JAA-style bureaucracy. They could offer other courses instead.
Now, it might have been none of those. As I said, I don't know the situation out there. But does anybody else? Is there any pprune correspondent who has some (genuine) insight into what caused them to make this decision? I would be most interested to know.
With absolutely no knowledge of the actual situation, it seems to me that when a college like this stops offering a course, it's probably for one of 3 reasons:
1. They weren't attracting enough JAA students. Losing the BA contract might have been the final straw to make it uneconomic.
2. Operating in the USA, they had difficulty in attracting sufficient high-calibre JAA-qualified instructors.
3. They didn't feel that it was worth continuing in the face of JAA-style bureaucracy. They could offer other courses instead.
Now, it might have been none of those. As I said, I don't know the situation out there. But does anybody else? Is there any pprune correspondent who has some (genuine) insight into what caused them to make this decision? I would be most interested to know.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Probably a combination greengage22. I have a couple of friends who work there. Things got close to the end after 911; the University was worried about the possible negative publicity associated with training overseas students (they used to have the Emirates contract as well as BA’s).
The only other factor was probably the scandal associated with their Delta course. I may have the detail wrong, but the contract was to train a small number of “minorities” students for Delta as a defence against recruitment discrimination cases. One or more of the students made allegations of discrimination against a number of staff, including the Dean and the Head of Training. You can imagine in a PC environment how difficult it would be to defend against such allegations. I don’t think anything was proven, but the Dean left, and the Head of Training stood down from a management position, neither voluntarily. The scuttlebutt was there was not much of a case to answer, but if a one legged black lesbian claims discrimination…
WMU have been a fine school. I had reservations about the flagging-out nature of their operations, but they employed some good people. I don’t think it healthy that the UK industry is down to 3 integrated approved schools (us, BAe and Cabair), one of those being entirely in Spain. Consumer choice is good for an industry.
The only other factor was probably the scandal associated with their Delta course. I may have the detail wrong, but the contract was to train a small number of “minorities” students for Delta as a defence against recruitment discrimination cases. One or more of the students made allegations of discrimination against a number of staff, including the Dean and the Head of Training. You can imagine in a PC environment how difficult it would be to defend against such allegations. I don’t think anything was proven, but the Dean left, and the Head of Training stood down from a management position, neither voluntarily. The scuttlebutt was there was not much of a case to answer, but if a one legged black lesbian claims discrimination…
WMU have been a fine school. I had reservations about the flagging-out nature of their operations, but they employed some good people. I don’t think it healthy that the UK industry is down to 3 integrated approved schools (us, BAe and Cabair), one of those being entirely in Spain. Consumer choice is good for an industry.
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From a ground instructor's point of view I know they had a problem with staffing the school, greenguage. I know a couple who turned down positions. The US tax system discourages alien resident workers from staying long, as they start out paying no tax but if they stay (more than a year, I think, or is it 2?) they have to pay back tax on the time so far!
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Is this some sort of joke or something??
Would somebody at WMU like to confirm what is happening within the college, and if the contents of this thread are accurate, assure current JAA students that they will continue to receive quality training.
Would somebody at WMU like to confirm what is happening within the college, and if the contents of this thread are accurate, assure current JAA students that they will continue to receive quality training.
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I find it amazing that no-one is in a position to confirm or deny Telemex's post and that this thread has just dropped off the bottom of the page.
I've no reason to doubt Telemex's good faith, but surely the closing of a major respected JAA course must have made some waves somewhere. I could not find anything about it on WMU's own website.
Doesn't anybody know?
I've no reason to doubt Telemex's good faith, but surely the closing of a major respected JAA course must have made some waves somewhere. I could not find anything about it on WMU's own website.
Doesn't anybody know?
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oxford blue - keep checking the web site for a statement.
telemex - If you were at that meeting you didn't listen. If you weren't, you have no right stating what went on there in a public "rumour" forum.
Send clowns - So who were these two people who turned down ground instructor posts then? None have been formally offerred since 1999!! As for the tax - on the J-Visa, it's a tax deferment for two years (not tax free), and if you stay beyond then yes, you have to pay back tax. If you leave you're actually suppposed to declare your earnings to your own inland revenue (and everyone does, right?!) The disincentive is that if you elect to pay tax, just like any other normal employee, for the first two years then you can count the time towards "substantial presence" exemptions, but for these two years you pay as a single person with no other benefits. However, you're exempt from paying US Social security dues during this time and it more or less balances out.
Dexy - relax, no-one is leaving or being fired, the training will continue as before.
WMU is "restructuring" in effect - it is a University and must be able to offer courses for USA students as well as European students in a cost effective manner. This is what people are trying to put in place right now. Whether or not JAA training will(can) return will be more evident next year but the stated intention is to continue to maintain qualifications and standards. Is that possible? Who knows, but there's plenty of work going on to try and achieve it.
Finally, the Delta courses have been a learning process and it's a bit below the belt to call them disasters. There were issues, not just with Delta students, which had unfortunate and unforseen consequences and it hurt! If these courses were really disasters, then Delta 3 wouldn't be commencing in September, now would it?
Hmmmm..... now that it's evident where I am maybe I should change my nick or my profile.....
telemex - If you were at that meeting you didn't listen. If you weren't, you have no right stating what went on there in a public "rumour" forum.
Send clowns - So who were these two people who turned down ground instructor posts then? None have been formally offerred since 1999!! As for the tax - on the J-Visa, it's a tax deferment for two years (not tax free), and if you stay beyond then yes, you have to pay back tax. If you leave you're actually suppposed to declare your earnings to your own inland revenue (and everyone does, right?!) The disincentive is that if you elect to pay tax, just like any other normal employee, for the first two years then you can count the time towards "substantial presence" exemptions, but for these two years you pay as a single person with no other benefits. However, you're exempt from paying US Social security dues during this time and it more or less balances out.
Dexy - relax, no-one is leaving or being fired, the training will continue as before.
WMU is "restructuring" in effect - it is a University and must be able to offer courses for USA students as well as European students in a cost effective manner. This is what people are trying to put in place right now. Whether or not JAA training will(can) return will be more evident next year but the stated intention is to continue to maintain qualifications and standards. Is that possible? Who knows, but there's plenty of work going on to try and achieve it.
Finally, the Delta courses have been a learning process and it's a bit below the belt to call them disasters. There were issues, not just with Delta students, which had unfortunate and unforseen consequences and it hurt! If these courses were really disasters, then Delta 3 wouldn't be commencing in September, now would it?
Hmmmm..... now that it's evident where I am maybe I should change my nick or my profile.....
Join Date: Apr 2002
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It is my understanding from the meeting on Friday that WMU intends to cease all JAA training once the present contracts are completed.Indeed the Dean stated that they had no intent of actively seeking further JAA contracts, but intended to consolidate their FAA program and UK style FAA accelerated programs such as Delta. Incidently what are the "Delta Disasters" and who has called them such?
This September the College intends to renew its JAA/CAA certification. This it has to do to fulfill its obligation to those students already undergoing training. This training is due to be completed by March/April 2003.
After March 2003 the JAA training will not be able to continue as there will be insufficient expat/JAA instructors remaining.
The J1 visa when issued is done on the condition/stipulation that the bearer is fulfilling a task/job that cannot be fulfilled by a US resident. Therefore after March some of the instructors will find themselves in an untenable situation and will be forced to leave, irrespective of their wish to stay or willingness to pay tax and back taxes. Not all of the instructors have applied for "green cards".
My sources for this are students and instructors at WMU.
This September the College intends to renew its JAA/CAA certification. This it has to do to fulfill its obligation to those students already undergoing training. This training is due to be completed by March/April 2003.
After March 2003 the JAA training will not be able to continue as there will be insufficient expat/JAA instructors remaining.
The J1 visa when issued is done on the condition/stipulation that the bearer is fulfilling a task/job that cannot be fulfilled by a US resident. Therefore after March some of the instructors will find themselves in an untenable situation and will be forced to leave, irrespective of their wish to stay or willingness to pay tax and back taxes. Not all of the instructors have applied for "green cards".
My sources for this are students and instructors at WMU.
Jet Blast Rat
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presbycusis - one I know of (a onetime colleague) must have been around 1999. The other (another onetime colleague) was not a formal offer, he was told the post would be coming vacant but may have to be left vacant, depending on funding. He was provisionally offered the place if it was available, but never found out as he turned it down as he did not wish to uproot to the USA without very good employment conditions. I imagine many ground instructors, being often retired pilots/military aircrew are old enough to be fairly settled.
As far as I am aware the Inland Revenue does not collect taxes if you are resident outside the UK. Therefore it is quite safe to declare those earnings here, but seemingly if you stay beyond the two years would have to pay the US IRS all those deferred taxes ...
As far as I am aware the Inland Revenue does not collect taxes if you are resident outside the UK. Therefore it is quite safe to declare those earnings here, but seemingly if you stay beyond the two years would have to pay the US IRS all those deferred taxes ...
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Presby, are you the new moderator for the WMU forum? Remember that this a forum that delivers rumors and facts that affect all wannabes in way or the other. As such we are all able to make comments concerning Wrinkled Plums first comment.
I cannot comment on the tax and social security problems of instructors, however your comments about instructors leaving etc requires some examination. During the past 18 months 6 JAA Ground Instructors have left and not been replaced. In the past 8 months 6 JAA Flying Instructors have left or "Your contract is not being renewed". (WMU does not fire people, too many questions could be asked.) At least 5 JAA instructors will be leaving in the near future and most probably will not be replaced. This does not show any commitment to the JAA program, especially when the WMU management states that they were not going to actively seek any JAA contracts in the future.
For BA and others to decide to return to WMU there will need to be a radical change in attitude on the part of the Aviation College management and the higher management of WMU. I suppose we can debate the ability and integrity of these for some time.
I cannot comment on the tax and social security problems of instructors, however your comments about instructors leaving etc requires some examination. During the past 18 months 6 JAA Ground Instructors have left and not been replaced. In the past 8 months 6 JAA Flying Instructors have left or "Your contract is not being renewed". (WMU does not fire people, too many questions could be asked.) At least 5 JAA instructors will be leaving in the near future and most probably will not be replaced. This does not show any commitment to the JAA program, especially when the WMU management states that they were not going to actively seek any JAA contracts in the future.
For BA and others to decide to return to WMU there will need to be a radical change in attitude on the part of the Aviation College management and the higher management of WMU. I suppose we can debate the ability and integrity of these for some time.
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Ultimately, WMU made a poor business judgement in 1998 when they started their CAA/JAA courses. Once they had secured Aer Lingus and BA, they closed their doors to self sponsored students almost immediately, stating that to be a student, one had to have a airline sponsor.
You'll notice that OATS, BAe and Cabair never follow this policy, as when the industry goes belly-up, its the Self S's that keeps these places viable.
You'll notice that OATS, BAe and Cabair never follow this policy, as when the industry goes belly-up, its the Self S's that keeps these places viable.
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Sigh!
telemex - no, I'm not a moderator, but I agree with you, this forum is for reporting RUMOURS and FACTS affecting all wannabees. Since rumours are inherently destructive, they also affect employees and families, so I reserve the right to correct errors of fact on here like I did in my post. Here are a couple more for you:
1. In the past 18 months only one ground instructor has left (Jan 2002). The last one to leave before that was in Dec 2000 (5th to be precise). In the past two and a half years, only 5 have left. FACT.
2. In the past 5 months, 5 flying instructors have left, for one reason or another and I'm not about to state how many for which reason. FACT.
gospel granny - Don't confuse the J1 visa with others such as the H1B. this is a University, the J1 is an educational visa and the University can issue one to whom it likes for whatever programme it wishes. All but 3 of the current instructors have applied for Green Cards and all those 3 are leaving anyway. BTW, since this is your first post and judging from your profile I'm assuming you post here under another nick too - but that's maybe just a rumour!
Send Clowns - That's nearer the truth - ty. In addition yes, if you stay in the US after two years you owe the IRS back tax.
no sponsor - valid point!!
telemex - no, I'm not a moderator, but I agree with you, this forum is for reporting RUMOURS and FACTS affecting all wannabees. Since rumours are inherently destructive, they also affect employees and families, so I reserve the right to correct errors of fact on here like I did in my post. Here are a couple more for you:
1. In the past 18 months only one ground instructor has left (Jan 2002). The last one to leave before that was in Dec 2000 (5th to be precise). In the past two and a half years, only 5 have left. FACT.
2. In the past 5 months, 5 flying instructors have left, for one reason or another and I'm not about to state how many for which reason. FACT.
gospel granny - Don't confuse the J1 visa with others such as the H1B. this is a University, the J1 is an educational visa and the University can issue one to whom it likes for whatever programme it wishes. All but 3 of the current instructors have applied for Green Cards and all those 3 are leaving anyway. BTW, since this is your first post and judging from your profile I'm assuming you post here under another nick too - but that's maybe just a rumour!
Send Clowns - That's nearer the truth - ty. In addition yes, if you stay in the US after two years you owe the IRS back tax.
no sponsor - valid point!!
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I can confirm that not many have left WMU at least on the groundschool side in the last year or so - it becomes widely known in the industry if many are doing so. The schools know a lot about each other due to staff movements, job interviews, and the CAA contact groups, such as the CGIs meetings. I certainly don't remember many people being approached to work in WMU, only the one in that time, and that due to a retirement.