what airlines want?

[gorky]

If you want be a pilot, how are you going to finance your training?
Most of wannabes think they have just to enter in a bank, ask for a loan, do their training in a FTO and then, pay back when hired by an airline. If it was so easy, everybody would do that. It would be easier to be an airline pilot than to be an engineer considering a flight training takes only 2 years.
When airlines look at your resume, they want see the number of hours, your life experience, and the university you did. Better to have (by example): JAR ATP pilot, 1500h, university degree, 33 years,…
Than: 250h Frozen ATP (the superioooor license) 22.5 hours of mini multi engine, 23 years, no degree, daddy sold his house to pay back my loan! And I want fly for an airline….
Com’on guys, that is not serious, what airline is going to give you a multi million dollars aircraft to fly if you can not even go to an University for 4-5 years. Airlines do not want be responsible for you when they will have to kick you out for economic recession.

The best way to become a pilot is to have a well paid job. The best way to find the money is to work hard and to save a lot. And to have a degree.
If you want be a pilot, give up your dream to have an houses, a girl-friend, and even a dog.
Airlines want flexible pilots. Who can be relocated, ready to fly day or night and even the Sunday (yes, yes, even the SUNDAY!!). It s why for years airlines have hired military pilot, because these guys shut up their mouth, they can support high stress situations...
If you want be a pilot, you have to be ready to change your life style, if you do not want go to Africa or Saudi by example to fly for a small airline, how can I hire you? It’s not because your pay your damn money in a school to “buy” a license that you think you will be hired by an airline. (the license give you the authorization to fly an aircraft, it does not mean airlines have to hire you)
Guys, wake up! welcome in the real world!.
To finish, I would like to say to this Mr. WWW that he is right when he says he doesn’t care about how much money you pay, you are a student pilot and that is all.
If you want get your license, an instructor has to follow some procedures called PTS (practical test standard for the FAA), even if you spend 1 million and you can not reach what the FAA or the JAA want , the instructor can not present you for the final test. If you have some problems to get your solo or to pass your written tests, I suggest you strongly to change job, but please avoid us to deal with people like that.
On my desk, every month I have hundred resumes coming from unqualified pilots, no one is a cfi , no one has a seaplane or a bush license.
Why should I hire a guy like that?
What will happen if I send you away for 6 months in central Africa to fly a line for a X company.
Will you stay or will you leave for a company based at proximity of your girlfriend’s house, (or mommy’ house).

If you can not admit with what I write, I think it’ s time to check with your local Mc Donald if they have some openings for this summer.

[Ivan Ivanovich]

Despite Gorky's approach, I think he's probably right - on most points!

I've said it before and I'll say it again: do not even think about becoming an airline pilot unless you really, really, really want to be one. And that means being prepared to make all the sacrifices Gorky has so inelequently, but so effectively spelt out!

Think before you spend, before you sweat, before you stress, before you sacrifice. Then commit.

[Pinky95]

I guess so on most points, but it's a bit to straight forward in my opinion. Why shouldn't a 250hr frozen ATPL be good enough to be able to fly such a million dollar aircraft, many companies have proven they can. You need to get your typerating before you start anyway and i don't think you'll get that anyway if the airline thinks your not up to it.
I agree you have to be able to sacrifice a lot, but if you can't live a somewhat decent life outside the flying i think no-one would last a lifetime career up in the skies.

[biped]

Gorky. I've got the license. I've made sacrifices. I'm willing to relocate anywhere. I couldn't care less how close I am to home comforts.
I've got 235 hours and no university degree. I wish I had, but I'm to old now to go back to that. What are you suggesting, that I don't bother applying because I havent a degree. I passed 14 theoretical exams. Does that count for nothing.
And I didn't buy my license. I earned it.
Or am I missing your point?

[skysheriff]

the JAR ATPL is a scam, in JAR FTOs they make students believe they will find a job in Europe with 250 TT, which is rather the exception. Instructing is almost working for free and this is not an option for everyone. So many wannabes are left low and dry.

As for a seaplane rating, you must be joking. Is your outfit really operating beavers or grummans ?

[Luke SkyToddler]

My god ... a thinking, indeed an almost reasoned, post from ronchonner

Although 'gorky' is, in reality, a failed wannabe with a fairly tenous grasp on reality also known as ronchonner, ( whose last post before he got banned from here was a half page rant accusing all JAA licenced pilots of having yellow tattoos on their dicks, as I recall ). He's at least trying to preach the same gospel here that WWW has been hammering away at, and one that I have seen so many former students learn the hard way ... in the current employment climate a 19 year old, school leaving, plain-jane FATPL holder with no qualifications, no life experience and no back up plan, is going to find themselves with about as many prospects as a plate of ham sandwiches at a bar mitzvah. This is a bad thing, and if you're in that position and especially if you're standing on the brink of spending a vast sum of other people's money, you should think very very hard about why you're doing it.

Not a bad effort at all by your standards ronchy boy ... although obviously your medication was wearing off by the end there when you started bangin on about all the cvs that cross your desk and all the pilots you hire. However, you score top marks for trying to engage people in debate rather than pour abuse on them for a change

Here's an idea ... why don't you dispense with all the posturing, and tell us where it all went wrong for you, and why you have such a down on Europe and the JAA? It must have been really bad ... I'd honestly, no bullsh!t like to hear your story. Your real story, that is. You never know, someone in here might even be able to help you ...

[batty]

Whats all this bull about having to have a degree to even be looked at by an airline! Complete rubbish!!!

Some life experience is a bonus I am sure, but a degree is not the be all and end all, maybe in the States where they are given out with the morning cornflakes but certainly not in Europe and the UK. You can get a degree in Coronation Street these days, mmmm yeah that makes you realy employable......

The airlines want you to have jumped through all the hoops to have a FATPL not just the CPL, they like to see that you have some experience after training ie instructing or the like so that you have some hours behind you. They want so see that you will fit in with their culture and be easily and CHEAPLY trained (not needing extra hours that cost them money)

MOST importantly you have to be in the right place at the right time, and that applies from the 200hrs FATPL to the 1500hr+ FI.

A degree will give you a back up plan and thats pretty much it!!

[Ivan Ivanovich]

Yes, the first thing I thought when I began reading Gorky's post was Ronchonner, but it matters little. Ignore the words and individual points he has actually written because the overall point he is making is a valid one: expect major sacrifices, be flexible, work incredibly hard, expect to meet great disappointment, but remain determined to see it through.

If you think being a pilot would be a great job and you fancy having a bash, then perhaps you're going to be in for a rude awakening, perhaps not.

I believe that's the message he is trying to get across - the fact he can't express that without ranting shouldn't render his message any less valid.

[buttline]

I've heard the view expressed that airlines actually prefer to get pilots with low hours so they can be taught properly and haven't picked up any bad habits yet..?

[JAR_monkey]

Batty's hit the nail on the head!

Couldn't agree more Batty!
All this degree talk really gets on my t#*s.
Admission - I have no degree. Has it held me back - has it b*ll#~#s! It didn't stop me having a city career, it didn't stop me driving a US$50m yacht around the world or being responsible for a 25-man crew. It sure as hell won't stop me from flying baby-boeings as and when I get my opportunity.
I've got life experience with a capital E!! Have lived and worked around the world in a variety of testing and challenging conditions. I've been in and around flying for 15 years and followed the civil industry seriously for the last 8. I also have a background in Air Traffic. The JAR system will spit me out in a couple of months time in low hour fATPL form. I have no pretensions as to what this means. I will in all likelihood scratch around for a year or two, getting quality hours on what I can and keeping current in a good sim. I'll rub shoulders with operators of all types anywhere I can, where my hard-won knowledge of hardware, procedures and company current affaires will impress and my kindered aviation spirit will hopefully be easy to warm-to. And one-day I will be in the right place at the right time and I will be offered my first flying job proper. I will get my big break into professional flying and some operator is going to get an enthusiastic, knowlegable, 3-dimensional pilot with a wealth of broad life-experience under his belt but no attitude or pretense to being anything other than what I am - an apprentice. Or he can go and find himself a nice graduate with Honors in "Surfing Technology" with an ability to drink 9 pints in 3 minutes and a poor work ethic, who believes the world owes him and his superior intellectualism a living - Don't Make Me Laugh!

Thank god we have a mature enough system in Europe in general and the UK in particular, which generally sees through this degree mentality cr@#. If only they were as enlightened the other side of the pond.

I am sorry to have gone off on one folks (on my maiden post as well!), but I have come across this whole thing time and time again in my travels and it doesn't smell any better now. There is nothing wrong with any graduate as a rule (Surfing Technologists included), but employers everywhere - beware the graduate who tells you that his Surfing Technology degree makes him a more suitable choice for any job other than Surfboard Technician.

It just aint so my friends......

[tailscrape]

Batty/JAR Monkey,

Spot on.

I have got the vast total of 3 GCSE's. Not in Maths either!

It didn't stop me getting into the London Stock Exchange and eventually becoming a Market Maker for large merchant banks.

That gave me the money to go to OATS at 25 years old....I had worked soooo hard to get that City Job.

I passed OATS with no real big problems.

I got into ATP Academy at 27 years old, because I had the right attitude, right age, seemed good enough and proved it. I guess my LIFE EXPERIENCE helped a lot.

I then got my job on a 757. I have not had to resit one single bit of anything since getting the offer. So would a degree help? Bollo??s it would....

Exams count for Naff all.

If you have the right outlook, are not a ****, you will succeed if you keep at it.

I know Batty from our days at OATS. He is exactly what I say from the above.

Don't listen to Ronchonner (or whatever he is called now). All our circumstances are different. Just like every Chief Pilot's are........

Stick at it all you wannabees.

[lonerider]

Its not one or the other you know. You can still go to university AND have a flying career too.

I fully agree that pilots working for either the military or airlines should be university educated. Why not? They are doing a professional job and demanding professional salaries and see themselves on a par with doctors. People who have been to university show that they value education and above all are willing to learn. I believe that it makes you a much more aware and rounded individual after going to university, essential as pilots are the airlines front men. After all who wants to talk to someone whose only conversation topic is flying and football, 24-7!!

I don’t doubt that people have made it ‘big’ without degrees such as Bill Gates et al, and good on them, but the vast majority of people out their earning good (100k above) salaries are educated people, like it or not.

In fact if you look at graduates earning capacity over their working life they more or less triple that of the non-graduate.

Sure life experience counts but when you are only 18 and embark on a 4 year degree course that only makes you 22!! Not exactly over the hill, giving you plenty of time to work in the city even before starting aviation. Where is the problem?

Above all if your young and capable choose a good university and good degree subject. You having nothing to lose. Just make sure that you don’t end up in 10k worth of debt and you’ll be fine. Education after all in never lost.

[tailscrape]

Lonerider,

Your post reads very arrogantly .

I hope you already have a flying job, or else you had best learn to disguise your ill advised snobbery.

Re read my post. I did not go to University, and have possibly had as interesting a life as many people do in a lifetime. I however am not even 30 yet.

Oh, and my topics of conversation are more wide ranging than just football and flying.

Your generalisations are I am not ashamed to say, quite monstrously blinkered.

Once you have finished reading your Uni books, get a life. You may enjoy it......

[lonerider]

Apologies I didn’t want to sound arrogant or cause offence with my post. It was aimed at no one in particular, I just stated my opinion on the subject. I have re-read my post and nothing seems to be unreasonable nor unrealistic and I take nothing back.

I really think though, in todays age where university is open to many more kids, even compared to a decade ago it would be foolish to miss out on gaining a good degree from a good university. In fact I think if you have good grades at A-Level the choice not go to university speaks volumes about you as a person and your attitude to life. There are exceptions to that I’m sure, but generally speaking it’s the case.

The sentence where I mentioned about flying and football was a generalisation and you have blown it all out of context! I don’t imagine for one minute that any pilot with or without a degree can only talk about those two subjects. All I was doing was to illustrate my point that by going to university it widens your horizons to many things, not just academics. Going to university can’t do you any harm can it and at the age of 21 or 22 there is more than enough time to ‘get a life’ and that much wanted position on the flight deck.

[biped]

Lonerider. Doctors go to university to train to be doctors.
I went to a place that trains pilots. Do you see what I am trying to say. I have fullfilled the requirements to get a pilots license degree or not. So I have as much right to fly an aircraft as anyone else.

If you have a degree congratulations. However, that doesn't make you better than someone who hasn't, and someone without a degree isn't necessarily uneducated. You can educate yourself by reading a book (daily). Also, someone with a degree isn't necessarily educated hence the term "an educated idiot".

I just think you have a very blinkered view of things.

p.s. What's happened to Gorky? He's gone very quiet considering he started all this!

[AlphaCharlie]

Listen, is it just me or is the wannabes section flooded with people going on and on and on and on about degrees, total hours, life experience etc. I'm sure the average wannabe knows that in an ideal world you would have great GCSEs, great A-levels, a degree, good flight school, lots of hours etc. But real-life has shown that you don't need a degree to get a flying job (BA doesn't require its cadets to have a degree, let alone 20-30 years ago when no one went to uni), Easyjet or Ryanair were at one stage recruiting people with fATPLs.

In the current situation, with everyone so frustrated, all most people want to hear is when airlines will start to recruit again, when will BA restart its cadet scheme, and is BMI going to place an ad in Flight this september?

I remember about a year ago when I applied to the BA TEP scheme, the wannabes section was flooded with info about BA and how to apply and what happens if you get on the scheme etc etc. Where have all these people gone? Why aren't we hearing from the BA recruits currently on the TEP scheme, who should be concerned about their future. Why are they no tales about how people became pilots, or how they financed their training.

I'm a fairly level-headed bloke. I'm at uni (1 more year to go thank god!), I'm working at LHR again this summer, I have good A-levels and GCSEs, I know that the chance of being sponsored is 1:10,000, I realise that I will need to raise the funds some other way. I don't need some jumped up failed wannabe telling me this. Give us wannabes some credit.

Bring back happy, interesting, encouraging wannabes (and somebody kill Osama Bin Laden!)

Sorry about the rambling, ranting post - bad day, and just the way I feel. We are all down hearted about things in the aviation world, can't we try and keep the wannabes section upbeat, and leave the bad news to the runours and news section.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Having a degree in itself is a crock ... it won't make you a better pilot. However, there's a lot to be said for doing something else other than commercial pilot training for those first 3 or 4 years after leaving school. Reason being, that the attrition rate amongst freshly qualified 18 year old CPL holders is a LOT higher than amongst the older guys. It's a fact that a teenage CPL holder (and particularly one that looks young) will struggle to get employed, particularly in the instructing or air taxi sides of the industry that involve a lot of up close and personal contact with the punters. Like it or not it creates a negative impression on a fair percentage of the customers.

[RoyMunson]

Tailscrape.....heard from a couple of mates from OATS that all you do talk about is flying!!!
I bet those long sectors must intersting what with you discussing gyroscopes and how the ILS works....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[Bucking Bronco]

Tailscrape ;- you appear to be the "monstrously" arrogant person on this subject if you dont mind me saying. Patronising and perhaps a little blinkered come to mind too. If youre so good and pass all your exams first time, what happened to the rest of your CSEs ? Getting a degree and qualifications would seem to be a better plan to me.

[tailscrape]

W~nkerman,

Nice one. That's all I ever do!

Bucking Bronco,

I don't see why you say that. I was drawing a relation between Degrees and other qualifications.

If you think I am arrogant then that's fine with me. I am happy with my lot, you on the other hand may not be so happy with yours??

I am not a hot shot, I f?cked my GCSE's up because I was lazy. I had to work very hard to get where I am, with my OWN money. So, if you have a problem with that, tough.

I worked hard and got lucky. You don't need a degree for that.

So, if you don't like it and don't want to hear true stories from lucky individuals.......well just head elsewhere.

Good luck. I hope you get your shoulder chip removed painlessly.....