Brits and CTC

[tailscrape]

Skyguy.

Your post to Constant Speed's decent info is worthless. If it is so boring, why don't you ****** off elsewhere and be bored.

Constant Speed DU,

You are quite correct. Excellent scheme. I did not pay 6 grand as I got in in 1999, however I echo your points entirely.

I am approaching 1000 hours rapidly on the 757. In about 15/17 months of flying it.

Could I have done that myself? Doubtful!

Go for it guys and the best of luck.

[Lazlo]

Tailscrape,

The Britannia CC are not happy about the six CTC recruits at all. There has been (and still is ongoing) a lot of discussion on this topic as there is concern that this is the thin edge of the wedge in terms of having contract pilots in Britannia. The latest CC newsletter goes into quite some detail in regard to this. The company has given its assurance that this is not a permanent departure from their "normal" recruiting procedures and is merely due to a late decision to hire pilots this year and training constraints due to this years Haj and possible fleet change. If the company starts to show signs that contracting pilots in like this might be a more regular thing than you will see BALPA become much more involved. It is all well and good if the CTC scheme gets you in on the bottom rung, and gets you that all-important first job and experience, but if it means a life of working contracts and the tremendous lack of security that that involves, well it just isn't a career worth having any more. Some people like that kind of lifestyle but most of the people I fly with in Britannia would absolutely hate being a contract pilot. There are so many issues, like pensions, seniority, a change in the industry can see you chucked out in a split second (and lets face it this industry is more knee-jerk prone than most), erosion of pay levels and on and on....

Lazlo

[AMEX]

Start at the bottom PP. You wouldn't be the firts one I can assure you that.

[worzel]

Fly Star

I would be interested to know where you got the info that Monarch would be taking CTC cadets.

To the best of my knowledge they have not taken any for approximately four years. It seems unlikely that a company like Monarch who at the moment ask for 2500 hours and previous jet experience (and they do get it) would go back to CTC.

I hope they do.

worzel

[chinchaser]

Hi All,

Lazlo is quite correct in all that he says with regard to the current position that bY is now in. i recently flew with one of our CC who is involved with this issue and the CC is very much against this move (ctc) but is tolerant because of the company's position with regard to fleet change and the fact that we are streched crew wise on the line.

to the best of my knowledge the normal recruitment cycle will start again "later this year", but this will again be dictated as to projected requirements next summer, let alone the loss of crew's to retraining should the new fleet finally materialise.

Personally I don't like the CTC scheme but as with others I did interview etc to get a slot as any way in is an option, its better than sitting at home watching the letter box every morning!!

Piperpilot how to get the break low hours etc, as i am sure others will echo, who ever works that one out will make a lot of money on the book! It happens when it happens you just have to keep the faith! As for relocating some times there are greater powers that we all have to deal with, marriage is a wonderful thing!!!!!!


regards all

Chinchaser

[Turbine1]

PiperPilot

Why don't you, when you have finished your training come back and then btich about not getting a job for 5 years, because laddie, thats what you can bank on, jesus i know people who more deserving than you that have jumped through the hoops more than once to get that foot on the first rang of the ladder.
you really **** me off.

You will start like everybody esle in this industry at the Frigging bottom, if you are lucky to get that first jet job well good on you, but don't count on it... sonny.

Amex will be up there soon hold the Beer............................

Regeards

[tailscrape]

Lazlo,

I understand if BY take these guys for a few months then bin them, that is a bad thing. If they offer them contracts at the end of it as jmc have done for me, I cannot see where the problem lies.

The reason CTC guys get low pay to begin with is because they are paying back some training bond.

BY will not pay them, I believe they will pay CTC.

These CTC guys have passed a rigorous selection test programme and are deemed good enough to have passed a 757 rating.

So, where is the difference between them and a low hours LOW PAID BY second officer?

I am happy that I did the scheme. I am a full time employee at jmc on a final salary pension scheme. What is so bad about that?

I am not a contract pilot.

I can understand your frustrations, but don't shoot me for them. If you have a problem, take it up with your BALPA plc Chairman or reps.

And before you ask, I am a confirmed BALPA member and am not in this just for myself believe me.

CTC have trained a good few hundred cadets for this scheme. As far as I know, none have been disadvantaged for it.

As for other people being disadvantaged by not being picked...well it's a big world.

I don't think this will be a long term BY ploy. So, I suggest you wait and see.

[AMEX]

As for other people being disadvantaged by not being picked...well it's a big world.

Tailscrape, I and others were picked but by BY, not by CTC so I have been disadvantaged and not because I wasn't good enough (as you seem to imply). I too, like ....

These CTC guys have passed a rigorous selection test programme and are deemed good enough to have passed a 757 rating.

I think what you fail to realise is that as long as you are the flavour of the month, it all looks good but let me try to illustrate this using a fictional example that contains some truth.

Let's say you were at the bottom of the JMC list and almost certainly made redundant at the end of October.
You are now qualified on the 757 and with a few hundreds of hours under your belt you would expect to be able to find a job fairly rapidly after your last JMC flight.
Quite rightly so me think but of course assuming you have the hours, how would you feel if you were to remain unemployed for another 6 months or more, simply because Monarch (fiction), would rather get low cost CTC guys than you. As a matter of fact you could remain unemployed forever simply because of such programme.
As I said, you are/were the flavour of the month but once you are going to re enter the market, the unemployed qualified pilots (more than I am) will be there to wish you a warm welcome.
Don't get me wrong this isn't personal at all. I agree that whoever has made it through the CTC selections did well but where I disagree is that you see it as a great opportunity for inexperienced pilots (truly is) whereas I see it as a long term industry damaging scheme.
I hope you won't be in that situation but sooner or later you might find yourself fighting for your job, your benefits and be in a real struggle against your old CTC comrades. Fair ? who said the world was fair


Ppilot

Before your time there was a system where pilot such as Turbine1 could post as much as they like. One day the bigr Gret new server came along and the post were lost (which is what you use to judge people's ability to comment about your useless, misinformed, naive, posts).
As the man said, what don't you p*** off

[tailscrape]

AMEX,

I am BOTTOM of the list at jmc. So, you have guessed correctly. However, I don't think things are that bad. There's DHL and other opportunities too.

I was not implying you are not good enough. It is a commercial decision. Have you a type rating? I don't know. These CTC guys do. That is what I am talking about. Them, NOT YOU!

I am not talking about being flavour of the month. I am talking reality.

So, please don't preach my post to me. I know what I am on about.

You may as well expect to apply again to Britannia from what I hear. It is a big, tough world. sept 11 robbed you of your seat, but that is not my fault. Unfortunately I cannot be blamed for that.

If jmc lay me off in Oct, I will take my chances. the likelihood is I will hopefully have something else arranged anyhow.

So, just calm down. I feel for you in your position. However as you know airlines are not in it for favours...........

The facts of the situation may not appeal to your taste. That however is life. I have had blows too.

Sorry to have to disagree.

[GonvilleBromhead]

Oh by Christ, piperpilot's off again.....must admit, son, you are good value for entertainment...Turbine1, you've gotta larf though....comical...

[Bucking Bronco]

I would be pretty p****d too if I was in the pool at Britannia and I heard CTC guys were being queue jumped to the front. Nothing against any CTC cadets but surely this is a blatant case of hiring on the cheap. Not being paid for 6 months to cover their type rating costs and no definate job offer at the end of the 6 months.

It all smacks of summer working only contracts in the future and the beneficiaries are the moonlighters at CTC and the airlines who are hiring on the cheap. I hope the Britannia CC vigorously contest this shameless exploitation.

PiperPilot;- Are you spouting your usual nonsense again ? You just don't learn do you ?

[Fly Star]

worzel

I heard this info from a very unreliable source... That is all I can say. Regardless what Monarch or other airlines are planning to do, it seems that the CTC scheme is very popular for the moment.

Concerning the debate about the quality of the CTC cadets, I know some of them, and they were not the best students you could imagine during the different exams for the frozen ATPL. I know a particular one, who had to go on a stress management course to be able to complete all the groundschool... He is now flying for GO (!!!!).

I am not saying that all cadets from CTC are not good, I am just saying that some of them who managed to get through to very good jobs, deserved it probably less than others who are still unemployed. But the one at CTC were commited to bigger amount of money (up to £60K), so they got the jobs...
I do think that the CTC scheme is successfull because CTC is extremely motivated to find a job for the cadets they trained. There is a lot of money involved.
They are all trained to good standards, therefore airlines are reasonably happy to employ them. But I still think that a 200 h experienced pilot will not be as safe and efficicent than someone with 3000 h.

I hope that the best jobs, will go back to the people who have worked up their way up the ladder...

Good luck to you all

Happy landings.

[Ennie]

It seems to me that the people who bad mouth the CTC scheme are the jelous narrow minded individuals who didn't get on.

I know lots of people who have done the scheme, and 4 of them who are going to Britannia in the next few weeks and fair play to them. I know for a fact that some of them had to work VERY hard to get the CPL/IR and that some of them were instructors etc for at least 2 years before hand travelling long distances just to build hours.

I think it's an excellent scheme, I tried to get on but didn't, and those of you who bad mouth it would be praising it - if you had been succesful. So do us all a favour and be happy for the people who have got on now, because as you know it's no picnic what they are about to do.

[Bucking Bronco]

I wouldn't say jealous as I was fortunate enough to be sponsored from the outset. I am merely stating that I am unhappy with recent developments such as the CTC scheme (wrt low starting wages and temporary contracts) and Ryanair making applicants pay a fee to get their application read.

By the nature of my current position I am fortunate enough to fly with people who have been in the game for over 30 years benefitted from the golden age of flying. They all drive nice cars, send their children to public school and live in big houses with swimming pools. I very much doubt that we (pilots at the begining of our careers) will be able to enjoy such a salubrious lifestyle and believe that we should not prostitute ourselves in order to live the dream lest it becomes a nightmare. Instead we should hold our heads high and demand better pay and conditions. N'est pas?

Cheers

[Lazlo]

Tailscrape,

Whoah hold on!!! I was merely replying to your comment:

"If CTC were so bad for the industry, would the Britannia BALPA Company Council allow these cadets to join??????????? After all, Britannia CC is perhaps the strongets in the business...."

Yes we have strong representation in BALPA but this is largely due to the fact that for the past few years the CC has not taken a confrontational approach to the management and have elected to work with them, and the results have been encouraging. Not all would agree but I am happy. The CC cannot tell the company who to hire and who not to but if they could you can be sure that CTC cadets would never join Britannia.

I am not saying that they are not qualified or good enough, not at all. You are right they have passed rigorous tests etc (although even so only 6 out of 13 passed Britannia's recruitment). But at the end of the day they work for CTC not Britannia and that is where the problem lies. You were lucky that you were taken on after six months with JMC. I'm pleased for you. However, what we are all concerned about is that the charter airlines might start hiring pilots on contracts for the summer and laying off in the winter. That isn't good for any pilots but that is what the beancounters would love to do. Britannia Second Officers are not paid as badly as you say especially if you consider that they are part of the final salary pension scheme from day one, not six months down the line (and who knows six months later they may have decided to close the scheme to new entrants and then you've REALLY lost out huge).

Furthermore, what is probably the thing that bothers me the most is the fact that the pilots who were in the holding pool have been "bumped" for these CTC cadets and I just think that that is plain wrong. Many of these people are still waiting in the wings for a job and are ready to start in a moment's notice. Some are even working for Britannia as cabin crew at the moment. There is no financial or time advantage for Britannia just because the CTC people have a type rating because they will still have to do the Britannia course as that is a CAA requirement. The only reason that CTC cadets were chosen over the people in the hold pool (some of whom left other flying jobs keep in mind) is that they are expendable - if another industry crisis happens they can be rid of easily. Maybe you like that but it doesn't sit well with me.

Lazlo

[tailscrape]

Lazlo,

Of course I don't like what you suggest, as it will affect me if it happens.

What I am saying is that these guys are obviously good enough ,so give em a chance. Hope they get taken on permanently.

I doubt they will have to do a Britannia course...probably a day or two warm up and then a 2 day sim check.

Then line training.

That is quicker than a full course by miles.

[AMEX]

Fact: contracts of employment had been signed and sent back to BY.
Fact: People had resigned from their previous jobs.
Fact: Bases had been allocated.

Now with the CTCs (I stress again this isn't personal, there nothing those guys can do about it) jumping the queue, I find it quite disturbing.
Tailscrape, I understand you come from a cut throat industry so perhaps this is the norm and perhaps the airline industry should get used to it but this a first for BY. In my book I have been undercut which isn't right because if it becomes standard practice, the likelyhood that you, me and others will find ourselves in the receiving end again and again will become a certitude.
In my opinion, we, pilots are responsible for the industry we are in. We are the ones who create this state of affair so everytime we let the standards go a little, it's our career we are just helping to be made more difficult.
I am lucky enough to have found a job just after September and I know what the word patience means but if you want to talk aviation career with its ups and downs, relocation, dodgy airlines, good ones, redundancy, jobs found in 24hours and god knows what else...then you have found your man. Down the pub and I'll tell you all about it....

Good luck to all involved (all of us me think)

[tailscrape]

AMEX,

I can sympathise with you, and I know that you feel hard done by. I can appreciate that, and I see why you guys feel betrayed.

What I was saying is don't shoot the CTC cadets. It is hardly their fault.

Remember everyone, that many airlines have used CTC before and the pilot's are not contractors. It is my opinion that these CTC guys will get BY contracts at the end of the 6 months.

That doesn't help you, but it is no different to the way the scheme has ever been.

Your beef should be with BY (as I know it is), not with CTC cadets. After all, you would have more than likely got a place with CTC if you wanted one.

However, there is the STG6000 argument etc etc....

Good luck AMEX, I hope things work out for you in your job you are in now.

[AMEX]

Thanks Tailscrape, we have obviously two different experiences and since we are both intelligent enough, we recognise this.

Incidentally, I have applied to the CTC scheme in October and was invited to stage 1. I turned it down, thinking I should be able to get a flying job without their help. I guess I am lucky enough to have the kind of experience that gets me out of situation like this pretty quickly so I have no regret (of course it is very possible that I would have failed the selection process).

(Not related to this thread but just to show what are me beliefs)
More recently, a friend of mine has asked me to get a 737 rating with a 99% garanteed job in the end.
I turned it down too. Not being arrogant but I am sure there are lots of companies out there (about 95% of them), employing pilots who joined wihtout a type on their licence but were given one with no other commitment than the standard 2-3 years bond. I feel there is no reason why I should do otherwise.
Call me stubborn but that's how I see things and will try my best to stand by it.

Bye for now

[Mr Bombastic]

Tailscrape ....I see you are fighting a difficult battle for CTC.
Thanks for your concern, & sorry for not getting back to you earlier. Mail me regarding the outcome if you like to know.