SEP IR Renewal OR MEIR Renewal?
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SEP IR Renewal OR MEIR Renewal?
Hi all,
Not sure if this is in the right place but here goes. I need to renew my IR - it lapsed in September 2010 and I would like to renew it before the new EASA regulation of 3 years comes around in September of this year.
I only really want to renew just so I don't have to go into getting CAA examiners on board etc. Could someone please tell me if I can renew on the SEP rather than the MEP? Will this reset the new 3 year rule?
Obviously renewing on the SEP will save me a load of money but would anyone advise against this from an employment perspective? I have the money to renew on the multi but wouldn't know where to go to do this - any suggestions?
Many thanks
Not sure if this is in the right place but here goes. I need to renew my IR - it lapsed in September 2010 and I would like to renew it before the new EASA regulation of 3 years comes around in September of this year.
I only really want to renew just so I don't have to go into getting CAA examiners on board etc. Could someone please tell me if I can renew on the SEP rather than the MEP? Will this reset the new 3 year rule?
Obviously renewing on the SEP will save me a load of money but would anyone advise against this from an employment perspective? I have the money to renew on the multi but wouldn't know where to go to do this - any suggestions?
Many thanks
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Similar position, thought it was just a seven year rule + ATO required training prior to renewal ? Over seven you have to do the whole course again ?
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It all came in last September in the UK.
The 3 year thing will affect your MEP class rating as well as the IR.
If you don't have a SPA-ME-IR you can't really apply for jobs because you need it valid to start a type rating.
There is a bloke called bose-x in the private flying forum that runs an ATO and seems a sensible bloke on here anyway. Give him a shout and see what he recons you need.
The 3 year thing will affect your MEP class rating as well as the IR.
If you don't have a SPA-ME-IR you can't really apply for jobs because you need it valid to start a type rating.
There is a bloke called bose-x in the private flying forum that runs an ATO and seems a sensible bloke on here anyway. Give him a shout and see what he recons you need.
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Ok guys, I will look up bose-x and see what he says. Maybe it's better to just take the hit and go for the renewal on the multi? Anyone know a decent place to this? Thanks
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3 Year Rule?
Hi again, I have just trawled through CAP 804 and cannot see anything about this 3 year rule EASA has brought in. Can anyone clear this up? All I can find is a bit about having to redo the entire IR course after 7 years. I also cannot find anything about the 3 year rule with regards to multi engine class ratings and so on 
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Hi guys,
The requirements is described in AMC to part FCL (AMC1 FCL.625(c) IR — Validity, revalidation and renewal)
I hope it helps... an remember useful information are almost always in AMC to Part FCL ( EC 1178/2011)
Rgds
The requirements is described in AMC to part FCL (AMC1 FCL.625(c) IR — Validity, revalidation and renewal)
I hope it helps... an remember useful information are almost always in AMC to Part FCL ( EC 1178/2011)Rgds
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flyingfox320, thank you for the heads up. Just to clarify, for the MEP rating, an expiry of more than 3 years would mean basically taking the training all over again? And for the IR, as long as the expiry is less than 7 years, a minimum of 3 training sessions will be required? So basically there is no 3 year rule for the IR but there is for the MEP?
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Exactly for MEP is the 3 year rule and for IR 7 year rule.... if you let the MEP expire for more than 3 years you need to do training all over again...
if you let the MEP expire for more than 3 years you need to do training all over again...
Last edited by flyingfox320; 29th May 2013 at 20:02.
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If you revalidate your IR as an SEP IR you will find yourself at a disadvantage as a SEP IR holder is not able to fly an MEP at a later date IFR, however a MEP IR holder can fly SEP IFR any time. In order to do a type rating you will require a MEIR, however not a valid MEP.
Your MEP needs to be revalidated once every three years or you will have to do the MEP course again. There is a little grey area hear however not an expert on it as the rules have recently changed, as you have stated already. The main reason most people keep this current is to keep the option of light aircraft MEP jobs open if they come along.
The most cost effective way to sort this out is do an MEP revalidation each time you revalidate your IR in the aircraft (every other year) as this will save on multi hire rates and its only one examiner fee. You will have to do this with a renewals examiner though, although not directly with the CAA.
Give your local school a ring and shop around! the prices tend to vary quite a bit depending on where you are.
Your MEP needs to be revalidated once every three years or you will have to do the MEP course again. There is a little grey area hear however not an expert on it as the rules have recently changed, as you have stated already. The main reason most people keep this current is to keep the option of light aircraft MEP jobs open if they come along.
The most cost effective way to sort this out is do an MEP revalidation each time you revalidate your IR in the aircraft (every other year) as this will save on multi hire rates and its only one examiner fee. You will have to do this with a renewals examiner though, although not directly with the CAA.
Give your local school a ring and shop around! the prices tend to vary quite a bit depending on where you are.
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Jet Simulation,
The problem with renewing the MEP every other year in the a/c whilst renewing the MEIR, is that the student needs to undergo MEP refresher training ( as it's been longer than a year if he/she renewed in the sim the previous year). I thinks it's 4 sessions.
So how is the examiner going to be able to sign off a pilots MEP (lapsed and ATO certificate needed) together with the MEIR (still in date and no ATO certificate needed)? This EASA thing is a mess!!
The problem with renewing the MEP every other year in the a/c whilst renewing the MEIR, is that the student needs to undergo MEP refresher training ( as it's been longer than a year if he/she renewed in the sim the previous year). I thinks it's 4 sessions.
So how is the examiner going to be able to sign off a pilots MEP (lapsed and ATO certificate needed) together with the MEIR (still in date and no ATO certificate needed)? This EASA thing is a mess!!
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I see your point maxed-out, and a very good one it is too.
Just done some digging around in the office this evening to see what we come up with and here are some extracts.
Cap804: Page 340
FCL.1030(b)(2) – Type and Class Rating Renewal Arrangements
Where the type rating has expired by more than 3 years, or has been removed from Section XII on page 4 of the licence, the application must be submitted to Licensing & Training Standards for the certificate of revalidation entry by the UK CAA, and a fee will apply. Where the type rating has expired by less than 3 years, and is included in Section XII on page 4 of the pilot’s licence, the examiner may sign the certificate of revalidation included in the licence.
It also refers us to FCL740 which states for MEP renewals the following on page 247:
AMC1 FCL.740(b)(1) Validity and renewal of class and type ratings
RENEWAL OF CLASS AND TYPE RATINGS: REFRESHER TRAINING
(a) Paragraph (b)(1) of FCL.740 determines that if a class or type rating has lapsed, the applicant shall take refresher training at an ATO. The objective of the training is to reach the level of proficiency necessary to safely operate the relevant type or class of aircraft. The amount of refresher training needed should be determined on a case-by-case basis by the ATO, taking into account the following factors:
(1) the experience of the applicant. To determine this, the ATO should evaluate the pilot’s log book, and, if necessary, conduct a test in an FSTD;
(2) the complexity of the aircraft;
(3) the amount of time lapsed since the expiry of the validity period of the rating. The amount of training needed to reach the desired level of proficiency should increase with the time lapsed. In some cases, after evaluating the pilot, and when the time lapsed is very limited (less than 3 months), the ATO may even determine that no further refresher training is necessary. When determining the needs of the pilot, the following items can be taken into consideration:
(i) expiry shorter than 3 months: no supplementary requirements;
(ii) expiry longer than 3 months but shorter than 1 year: a minimum of two training sessions;
(iii) expiry longer than 1 year but shorter than 3 years: a minimum of three training sessions in which the most important malfunctions in the available systems are covered;
(iv) expiry longer than 3 years: the applicant should again undergo the training required for the initial issue of the rating or, in case of helicopter, the training required for the ‘additional type issue’, according to other valid ratings held.
(b) Once the ATO has determined the needs of the applicant, it should develop an individual training programme that should be based on the initial training for the issue of the rating and focus on the aspects where the applicant has shown the greatest needs.
So as you can see from the above, yes additional training may and probably will be required to be done by an ATO, however with the way it is written additional training is suggested and should be determined with experience by the ATO.
Now when you come to do your IR revalidation, 99% of pilots will require some sim time in order to get use to the aircraft again and then go and do their tests. From our pool of instructors the average amount of sessions was two. In the information above nowhere does it state that the refresher training must be done in the aircraft. I suggest that in this case your refresher training can happen during your IR sim practices therefore you can complete the MEIR and MEP skills test in one flight, while also fulfilling training requirements.
I suspect if you speak to your flight school they may tell you the same thing and they are the best people to speak to regarding your situation. Unfortunately we do not deal with MEP or SPIR revalidation ourselves so can not comment with absolute certainty, however with the numerous queries we have sent off to the CAA on previous customers behalf, our translations of CAP804 have been accepted.
I hope this helps!
Just done some digging around in the office this evening to see what we come up with and here are some extracts.
Cap804: Page 340
FCL.1030(b)(2) – Type and Class Rating Renewal Arrangements
Where the type rating has expired by more than 3 years, or has been removed from Section XII on page 4 of the licence, the application must be submitted to Licensing & Training Standards for the certificate of revalidation entry by the UK CAA, and a fee will apply. Where the type rating has expired by less than 3 years, and is included in Section XII on page 4 of the pilot’s licence, the examiner may sign the certificate of revalidation included in the licence.
It also refers us to FCL740 which states for MEP renewals the following on page 247:
AMC1 FCL.740(b)(1) Validity and renewal of class and type ratings
RENEWAL OF CLASS AND TYPE RATINGS: REFRESHER TRAINING
(a) Paragraph (b)(1) of FCL.740 determines that if a class or type rating has lapsed, the applicant shall take refresher training at an ATO. The objective of the training is to reach the level of proficiency necessary to safely operate the relevant type or class of aircraft. The amount of refresher training needed should be determined on a case-by-case basis by the ATO, taking into account the following factors:
(1) the experience of the applicant. To determine this, the ATO should evaluate the pilot’s log book, and, if necessary, conduct a test in an FSTD;
(2) the complexity of the aircraft;
(3) the amount of time lapsed since the expiry of the validity period of the rating. The amount of training needed to reach the desired level of proficiency should increase with the time lapsed. In some cases, after evaluating the pilot, and when the time lapsed is very limited (less than 3 months), the ATO may even determine that no further refresher training is necessary. When determining the needs of the pilot, the following items can be taken into consideration:
(i) expiry shorter than 3 months: no supplementary requirements;
(ii) expiry longer than 3 months but shorter than 1 year: a minimum of two training sessions;
(iii) expiry longer than 1 year but shorter than 3 years: a minimum of three training sessions in which the most important malfunctions in the available systems are covered;
(iv) expiry longer than 3 years: the applicant should again undergo the training required for the initial issue of the rating or, in case of helicopter, the training required for the ‘additional type issue’, according to other valid ratings held.
(b) Once the ATO has determined the needs of the applicant, it should develop an individual training programme that should be based on the initial training for the issue of the rating and focus on the aspects where the applicant has shown the greatest needs.
So as you can see from the above, yes additional training may and probably will be required to be done by an ATO, however with the way it is written additional training is suggested and should be determined with experience by the ATO.
Now when you come to do your IR revalidation, 99% of pilots will require some sim time in order to get use to the aircraft again and then go and do their tests. From our pool of instructors the average amount of sessions was two. In the information above nowhere does it state that the refresher training must be done in the aircraft. I suggest that in this case your refresher training can happen during your IR sim practices therefore you can complete the MEIR and MEP skills test in one flight, while also fulfilling training requirements.
I suspect if you speak to your flight school they may tell you the same thing and they are the best people to speak to regarding your situation. Unfortunately we do not deal with MEP or SPIR revalidation ourselves so can not comment with absolute certainty, however with the numerous queries we have sent off to the CAA on previous customers behalf, our translations of CAP804 have been accepted.
I hope this helps!
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Jet Simulation,
That's how I read the CAP too and thanks for the input. However what astounds me is the fact that the CAA seem happy for a pilot to jump into an MEP aircraft with an in date IR, complete a Me ir revalidation without any refresher training, gain a pass if the examiner feels we're safe and competent in all the tasks given to us but yet they feel we need refresher training through an ATO to have the mep renewed too. Even though we have just spent the last 2 hours in the bloody thing proving we can fly ifr and land in vfr. Madness! A lot of us are in current flying practice and often dont go through a school to renew. This new arrangement only benefits the ATO's.
That's how I read the CAP too and thanks for the input. However what astounds me is the fact that the CAA seem happy for a pilot to jump into an MEP aircraft with an in date IR, complete a Me ir revalidation without any refresher training, gain a pass if the examiner feels we're safe and competent in all the tasks given to us but yet they feel we need refresher training through an ATO to have the mep renewed too. Even though we have just spent the last 2 hours in the bloody thing proving we can fly ifr and land in vfr. Madness! A lot of us are in current flying practice and often dont go through a school to renew. This new arrangement only benefits the ATO's.
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I understand your frustration maxed- out, however although the IR flight is quite intense, there are still aspects of the MEP test which is done VFR and not tested during an IR exam. For example, steep turns and visual circuits (single engine as well) with a single engine go around at ACA.
Because of these points you are not able to adequately show and pass those parts of the flight test in the simulator. Due to this the entire MEP will have to be done in the aircraft separate to the IR flight in the sim.
This has been the case before EASA as well however in the new rules, we do not believe they were made with specific scenarios in place like this one. One can see the logic in it for say a pilot who has not flown the privileges of a TR over the last year but maybe some more leeway can be used for this specific scenario like the wording of the transcripts above suggest. Lets just see how much one can take out of it through translation before the CAA say no!
It would be interesting to learn what your flight school tells you when you put this question to them. Please keep us posted.
Because of these points you are not able to adequately show and pass those parts of the flight test in the simulator. Due to this the entire MEP will have to be done in the aircraft separate to the IR flight in the sim.
This has been the case before EASA as well however in the new rules, we do not believe they were made with specific scenarios in place like this one. One can see the logic in it for say a pilot who has not flown the privileges of a TR over the last year but maybe some more leeway can be used for this specific scenario like the wording of the transcripts above suggest. Lets just see how much one can take out of it through translation before the CAA say no!
It would be interesting to learn what your flight school tells you when you put this question to them. Please keep us posted.
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Jet,
Paragragh two of your post indicates that you havnt understood my posts. I was talking about revalidation of IR in the aircraft and not being granted an MEP renewal too. Nothing to do with sim.
Paragragh two of your post indicates that you havnt understood my posts. I was talking about revalidation of IR in the aircraft and not being granted an MEP renewal too. Nothing to do with sim.
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I have maxed- out,
What I was trying to say was that there are aspects of an MEP flight test (The VFR parts) which are not covered in a IR flight test when renewing/ revalidating. These same parts are not able to be done in a simulator either hence only being able to renew the MEP in the aircraft. Because of this you can either do a joint MEP/ IR flight test for the revalidation or do two separate ones if doing your IR in the sim.
Technically you are flying on your examiners licence during the test so you do not need a valid MEP to get your IR sorted. I do see your point about is being counter productive and pointless for us, however I believe this is the way the CAA have chosen to keep it as there are allot of people who fly MEP's VFR.
Hope you get clarification on your situation soon and look forward to hearing about your findings.
What I was trying to say was that there are aspects of an MEP flight test (The VFR parts) which are not covered in a IR flight test when renewing/ revalidating. These same parts are not able to be done in a simulator either hence only being able to renew the MEP in the aircraft. Because of this you can either do a joint MEP/ IR flight test for the revalidation or do two separate ones if doing your IR in the sim.
Technically you are flying on your examiners licence during the test so you do not need a valid MEP to get your IR sorted. I do see your point about is being counter productive and pointless for us, however I believe this is the way the CAA have chosen to keep it as there are allot of people who fly MEP's VFR.
Hope you get clarification on your situation soon and look forward to hearing about your findings.
You need a valid ME-IR to start a type rating.
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Hi Billie,
Are you sure about that? I am under the impression that the MEIR needs to be valid however not the MEP. I am not sure if I have read your response correctly and if that is infact what you actually mean.
Are you sure about that? I am under the impression that the MEIR needs to be valid however not the MEP. I am not sure if I have read your response correctly and if that is infact what you actually mean.
JAR–FCL 1.250 Type rating, multi-pilot – Conditions
(a) Pre-requisite conditions for training: An applicant for the first type rating course for a multi- pilot aeroplane type shall:
(1) have at least 100 hours as pilot-incommand of aeroplanes;
(2) have a valid multi-engine instrument rating (A);
(a) Pre-requisite conditions for training: An applicant for the first type rating course for a multi- pilot aeroplane type shall:
(1) have at least 100 hours as pilot-incommand of aeroplanes;
(2) have a valid multi-engine instrument rating (A);
FCL.720.A Experience requirements and prerequisites for the issue of class or type ratings — aeroplanes
(d) Multi-pilot aeroplanes. An applicant for the first type rating course for a multi-pilot aeroplane shall be a student pilot currently undergoing training on an MPL training course or comply with the following requirements:
(1) have at least 70 hours of flight experience as PIC on aeroplanes;
(2) hold a multi-engine IR(A);
(d) Multi-pilot aeroplanes. An applicant for the first type rating course for a multi-pilot aeroplane shall be a student pilot currently undergoing training on an MPL training course or comply with the following requirements:
(1) have at least 70 hours of flight experience as PIC on aeroplanes;
(2) hold a multi-engine IR(A);