fATPL is only halfway there if that
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2010
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From: Around and about
fATPL is only halfway there if that
To anyone out there I'd advise you not to start training integrated unless you can afford the 1.2k a month repayments. If your family will be stretched to achieve the money for your fatpl. And you can't fund a type rating you have very close to Zero if any chance of a jet job. Even to instruct you will need to find 7k more.
Having just finished my training debt free at least I don't have these crippling payments to make. There are thousands of people with a fatpl and others with time on type.
Seriously get your training done cost effectively and without as much debt as possible. The bar has been moved; a fatpl isn't the end and there are more costs required. If you can't afford a type rating after training. I would suggest a re-think.
Having just finished my training debt free at least I don't have these crippling payments to make. There are thousands of people with a fatpl and others with time on type.
Seriously get your training done cost effectively and without as much debt as possible. The bar has been moved; a fatpl isn't the end and there are more costs required. If you can't afford a type rating after training. I would suggest a re-think.
Last edited by Jugs08; 15th October 2012 at 15:56.
Joined: Nov 1999
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Yes. At the other end of the spectrum, I am seeing fATPL's who (in many cases) didn't have an hour to their name two years ago, with training debts around £85K in most cases, (none in a couple of cases who earned and saved previously,) now on permanent contracts flying around 800 hours a year, type rating paid by airline, full benefits package, grossing a quarter of a million pounds over the next 60 months and in many cases likely to have repaid those training debts in full over that same period.
Sensible investment? Cost effective? They think so, not surprisingly. Where would they be in 5 years time if they had chosen to "economize" two years ago? Where will they be in 5 years time? They will likely have 4000 hours each, and be eyeing the command selection lists.
Choices, money and luck!
Sensible investment? Cost effective? They think so, not surprisingly. Where would they be in 5 years time if they had chosen to "economize" two years ago? Where will they be in 5 years time? They will likely have 4000 hours each, and be eyeing the command selection lists.
Choices, money and luck!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,366
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From: UK
What exactly were you expecting? It's a tough market, always has been, but I still know plenty of people getting jobs. You just need something more than an fATPL.
Why didn't you budget instructing or something else into your original plan? It's a great way into the industry which many airlines respect, and develops your flying and people skills to a very high standard.
As above, the fATPL was never the bar, it's just these days you won't find a funded rating. Some airlines however do still offer a bonded system, where you put some cash upfront and they pay you back.
Did you do any research before you commenced training? I had a list of likely airlines, as well as plenty of contacts, by the end of my instructing career.
Why didn't you budget instructing or something else into your original plan? It's a great way into the industry which many airlines respect, and develops your flying and people skills to a very high standard.
As above, the fATPL was never the bar, it's just these days you won't find a funded rating. Some airlines however do still offer a bonded system, where you put some cash upfront and they pay you back.
Did you do any research before you commenced training? I had a list of likely airlines, as well as plenty of contacts, by the end of my instructing career.
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 560
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From: gashbag
There are a number of people on here who have been preaching the truth for some time. Unfortunately, starry eyed teenagers don't want to hear the truth, instead relying on the glossy brochure they got from the flying school to which they are about to hand £100k!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 734
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From: @ some hotel far away from everything
To add it up for those who are easily blinded by stats and/or glossy brochures handed to them;
You pay more for your initial training, and you pay yet again to land a contract job (they didn`t tell you that, now did they?) - unless you are among the lucky few who actually have your TR paid by your employer (fulltime of course). Unfortunately, luck runs out, and, maybe you`ve guessed it - you pay again! And when you`ve paid a mindboggling amount of money to fly commercial aircraft, you actually get paid peanuts to sit there for a steadily increasing number of hours (EASA FTLs - look `em up!). But what about job security, you ask? What security? Just sit down, shut up, don`t fuss about anything and maybe you will get your 6 month contract renewed. If you don`t, then you have some spare time to sort out your taxes.
Is flying fun? Absolutely! The feeling of flight is awesome!
Is flying for a living fun? I find myself asking that question a bit too often...
Are waterparks fun? You bet!
Is being flushed down the drain, TC - wise, fun?
You pay more for your initial training, and you pay yet again to land a contract job (they didn`t tell you that, now did they?) - unless you are among the lucky few who actually have your TR paid by your employer (fulltime of course). Unfortunately, luck runs out, and, maybe you`ve guessed it - you pay again! And when you`ve paid a mindboggling amount of money to fly commercial aircraft, you actually get paid peanuts to sit there for a steadily increasing number of hours (EASA FTLs - look `em up!). But what about job security, you ask? What security? Just sit down, shut up, don`t fuss about anything and maybe you will get your 6 month contract renewed. If you don`t, then you have some spare time to sort out your taxes.
Is flying fun? Absolutely! The feeling of flight is awesome!
Is flying for a living fun? I find myself asking that question a bit too often...
Are waterparks fun? You bet!
Is being flushed down the drain, TC - wise, fun?
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 215
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From: Hertfordshire
Are there any airlines out there employing low houred guys, except RYR?!
I'm not necessarily interested in how type ratings are gained (paid up front or bonded over a contract) but would be curious to know in addition if low it's possible for low houred guys to find permanent positions, or if it is only going to be short term contracts through the likes of Parc, CTC etc?
(PS by 'low houred' I mean fATPL and under 500 hours TT)
I'm not necessarily interested in how type ratings are gained (paid up front or bonded over a contract) but would be curious to know in addition if low it's possible for low houred guys to find permanent positions, or if it is only going to be short term contracts through the likes of Parc, CTC etc?
(PS by 'low houred' I mean fATPL and under 500 hours TT)
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
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yes Beazel but unless there was two self financed pilots for everyone of them the schools wouldn't be able to continue.
And the method of training which certain airlines prefer wouldn't be available.
The airlines won't pay for that style of training so they have to rely on the marketing of the schools and people like your self to pull the mugs in.
And the method of training which certain airlines prefer wouldn't be available.
The airlines won't pay for that style of training so they have to rely on the marketing of the schools and people like your self to pull the mugs in.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 83
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From: Around and about
Yea I knew the situation and went modularly with no debts.
Then have enough for a TR with FR if needed.
For me the risk of another 50k strapped to my parents house was too much for me to bear to then earn 1200 a month and again ask for them to pay for my living expenses.
Anyone that can justify paying 2x the cost to then be in the same boat as those that spent half is simply an idiot. And they have no business sense.
I'm not saying its wrong to have attrition in an industry but when it's 95% of the time linked to the size of your wallet rather than actual ability or dedication it is wrong. Not even lawyers have this much financial expense as the get govt help.
Why industry allows trainees to lose potential up to 80k or have to pay again because it's not regulated. Why is it?
In the next 2-3 years I think we will see a decline of entrants into the system followed by more collapsing training organisations. Purely because young people will no longer be interested if things continue to spiral, I have seen the next generation in the education system and they are very different. Largely product of the last labour government but that's a whole new topic!
Then have enough for a TR with FR if needed.
For me the risk of another 50k strapped to my parents house was too much for me to bear to then earn 1200 a month and again ask for them to pay for my living expenses.
Anyone that can justify paying 2x the cost to then be in the same boat as those that spent half is simply an idiot. And they have no business sense.
I'm not saying its wrong to have attrition in an industry but when it's 95% of the time linked to the size of your wallet rather than actual ability or dedication it is wrong. Not even lawyers have this much financial expense as the get govt help.
Why industry allows trainees to lose potential up to 80k or have to pay again because it's not regulated. Why is it?
In the next 2-3 years I think we will see a decline of entrants into the system followed by more collapsing training organisations. Purely because young people will no longer be interested if things continue to spiral, I have seen the next generation in the education system and they are very different. Largely product of the last labour government but that's a whole new topic!
Joined: Nov 2011
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 749
Likes: 6
From: Somewhere close to me
"For me the risk of another 50k strapped to my parents"
Are you serious? I mean you only discover this now, after you just discovered that you have acquired fATPL, sorry, you have CPL / MEIR!
Why did you not do your research before you started your training?
I guess you did, but ignored it, because you did not like the numbers you saw, and knew it would have been impossible to convince your parents for even more money!
So you took a gamble, a long shot! And it did not pay off!
It's not rocket science! It's simple basic maths! You, me, all, think they are the lucky chosen ones, but guess what, the odds are heavily against you and all of us!
I will tell you another thing, you get your TR, you will think before, oh yes, after TR I will be good!!! Nope you will not, still after passing your TR test, you know nothing, your skills are almost worthless, until you get experience flying the beast!
And so the story goes on, never-ending story!
"Why industry allows trainees to lose potential up to 80k or have to pay again because it's not regulated. Why is it?"
Again, are you serious? I mean, where you want to live? In old communist Russia? Where Big Brother tells you what to do, and not to do! I am sure you would have cried foul, if you had been told you would not be able to follow your dream, and train to be a pilot!
Nobody is going to hold your hand, you over 18, you are an adult, and you are supposed to take decisions yourself, I mean you want to be able to fly a big shiny jet, but you do not want to have responsibility for the decisions you have made for yourself?
Man up! You are young, got time on your side, go do some instructing, enjoy some basic flying for a while, don't worry about tomorrow yet! Get some experience, and sooner or later you will get a chance, and you will have experience that you will be happy for!
but when it's 95% of the time linked to the size of your wallet rather than actual ability or dedication it is wrong.
Well with some of your questions, you have not actually convinced to many about ability, as you was seriously lacking in basic Air Law knowledge!
I am still in my own process, and I can promise you one thing, the step up from fATPL to the next Airline level, it will be like you have been hit in the head by Concorde, so steep is the learning curve, knowledge requirement, and maybe because my head is a little bit older and slower, but I averaged 95% on my ATPL's, had 100% in Gen Nav and Met, but compared to what the airlines require, that was NOTHING!
Real life is not multiple choice options waiting for you to at least have a 50/50 chance, it was a 15 minutes detailed explanation about the Fuel Planning, Hold and 4 performance segments, and when I say detailed, I mean word perfect from the text books, memorizing alone, would not have been good enough!
I was stunned, still am actually, only thanks to a few good friends, that gave me extremely good advice along the way, did I manage to keep up the motivation, study and continued working hard to try to get close to my goal!
Jugs, this is not to knock you down, but make you understand, if you think you have had it hard until now, wait, it will get much worse, before I hope it starts getting better!
Me and a friend went with a very experienced TRE (friend), for him to give us some sim training to brush up on IR skills, after 6 hours in the sim, my friend on the way back home told me he was going to quit flying, so hard had we been pushed by the TRE (who was a friend), that he said to me, no way I will ever be good enough, he was almost crying!
Today he is flying for an airline as a first officer!
Are you serious? I mean you only discover this now, after you just discovered that you have acquired fATPL, sorry, you have CPL / MEIR!
Why did you not do your research before you started your training?
I guess you did, but ignored it, because you did not like the numbers you saw, and knew it would have been impossible to convince your parents for even more money!
So you took a gamble, a long shot! And it did not pay off!
It's not rocket science! It's simple basic maths! You, me, all, think they are the lucky chosen ones, but guess what, the odds are heavily against you and all of us!
I will tell you another thing, you get your TR, you will think before, oh yes, after TR I will be good!!! Nope you will not, still after passing your TR test, you know nothing, your skills are almost worthless, until you get experience flying the beast!
And so the story goes on, never-ending story!
"Why industry allows trainees to lose potential up to 80k or have to pay again because it's not regulated. Why is it?"
Again, are you serious? I mean, where you want to live? In old communist Russia? Where Big Brother tells you what to do, and not to do! I am sure you would have cried foul, if you had been told you would not be able to follow your dream, and train to be a pilot!
Nobody is going to hold your hand, you over 18, you are an adult, and you are supposed to take decisions yourself, I mean you want to be able to fly a big shiny jet, but you do not want to have responsibility for the decisions you have made for yourself?
Man up! You are young, got time on your side, go do some instructing, enjoy some basic flying for a while, don't worry about tomorrow yet! Get some experience, and sooner or later you will get a chance, and you will have experience that you will be happy for!
but when it's 95% of the time linked to the size of your wallet rather than actual ability or dedication it is wrong.
Well with some of your questions, you have not actually convinced to many about ability, as you was seriously lacking in basic Air Law knowledge!
I am still in my own process, and I can promise you one thing, the step up from fATPL to the next Airline level, it will be like you have been hit in the head by Concorde, so steep is the learning curve, knowledge requirement, and maybe because my head is a little bit older and slower, but I averaged 95% on my ATPL's, had 100% in Gen Nav and Met, but compared to what the airlines require, that was NOTHING!
Real life is not multiple choice options waiting for you to at least have a 50/50 chance, it was a 15 minutes detailed explanation about the Fuel Planning, Hold and 4 performance segments, and when I say detailed, I mean word perfect from the text books, memorizing alone, would not have been good enough!
I was stunned, still am actually, only thanks to a few good friends, that gave me extremely good advice along the way, did I manage to keep up the motivation, study and continued working hard to try to get close to my goal!
Jugs, this is not to knock you down, but make you understand, if you think you have had it hard until now, wait, it will get much worse, before I hope it starts getting better!
Me and a friend went with a very experienced TRE (friend), for him to give us some sim training to brush up on IR skills, after 6 hours in the sim, my friend on the way back home told me he was going to quit flying, so hard had we been pushed by the TRE (who was a friend), that he said to me, no way I will ever be good enough, he was almost crying!
Today he is flying for an airline as a first officer!
Last edited by truckflyer; 16th October 2012 at 04:03.
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
From: outside the box
I like your words TF .. specially these about the learning curve!
However, you don't have to brag about your theory exams .. We all know that if you had a very good understanding of the subject and stayed 2 nights with bristol a 100% was possible! Not that you would be incapable of a 100% score without it but rather unlikely because of some wicked questions in the database..
But I understand you did this to show the relative difference between atp-theory level and airline training level! Good posting!
However, you don't have to brag about your theory exams .. We all know that if you had a very good understanding of the subject and stayed 2 nights with bristol a 100% was possible! Not that you would be incapable of a 100% score without it but rather unlikely because of some wicked questions in the database..
But I understand you did this to show the relative difference between atp-theory level and airline training level! Good posting!