no job for the next 10 years
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
From: West Mids
ILS,
I hear what you are saying, however the way I read Scroggs post I believe he is saying that plenty of people gain the coveted FATPl but go no further due to lack of aptitude for a modern jet, poor attitude, arrogance etc...
No matter how much money you throw at it the high school dumbo will stay just that.
Cheers and good luck all.
TBL
edited for spelling, hope its not me who's the school dumbo!
I hear what you are saying, however the way I read Scroggs post I believe he is saying that plenty of people gain the coveted FATPl but go no further due to lack of aptitude for a modern jet, poor attitude, arrogance etc...
No matter how much money you throw at it the high school dumbo will stay just that.
Cheers and good luck all.
TBL
edited for spelling, hope its not me who's the school dumbo!
Last edited by The Boy Lard; 20th April 2002 at 21:27.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Chicago
piperindian,
"i got a JAR ATPL, 500 TT, have been waiting already almost 2 years for an interview, sent lotz of cvs. Know many guys in the same boat"
Well, with only 500 hours you can't really expect to get your dream-job right of the bat... If you wanted this really bad, why don't you try and build some hours, working as an instructor etc.?????
"i got a JAR ATPL, 500 TT, have been waiting already almost 2 years for an interview, sent lotz of cvs. Know many guys in the same boat"
Well, with only 500 hours you can't really expect to get your dream-job right of the bat... If you wanted this really bad, why don't you try and build some hours, working as an instructor etc.?????
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,503
Likes: 1,845
From: England
Yes but in the UK 500hrs is quite a lot comparatively. There are no instructor jobs available. As an illustration the UK's largest school has put all Instructors on notice for redundancy - amongst them a range of highly experienced and qualified professional instructors...
The upturn in recruitment is coming. I reckon 2 years from now the airlines will be scratching around a bit and low time will no longer be a problem as it wasn't pre Sept 11th.
In the meantime its tricky to know what to do with your new CPL. There are very few Air Taxi type positions, the large airlines don't need staff and the low costs are seeking either an Unfrozen ATPL, Boeing 737 experience or membership of a particular school on the continent and a wheelbarrow full of cash...
The trick is not to get rusty. Preferably this is done by graduating at the time that things are picking up for low time guys. Otherwise its connections, flexibility and the ability to work for very very little. Perhaps returning to a previous profession and using the money to keep curency is the only viable option for many. Heartbreaking as that move is.
WWW
The upturn in recruitment is coming. I reckon 2 years from now the airlines will be scratching around a bit and low time will no longer be a problem as it wasn't pre Sept 11th.
In the meantime its tricky to know what to do with your new CPL. There are very few Air Taxi type positions, the large airlines don't need staff and the low costs are seeking either an Unfrozen ATPL, Boeing 737 experience or membership of a particular school on the continent and a wheelbarrow full of cash...
The trick is not to get rusty. Preferably this is done by graduating at the time that things are picking up for low time guys. Otherwise its connections, flexibility and the ability to work for very very little. Perhaps returning to a previous profession and using the money to keep curency is the only viable option for many. Heartbreaking as that move is.
WWW
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Chicago
WWW,
Point taken.
But what about moving outside the UK? If a person is able to relocate then I would consider instructing in the US for a year or two while waiting for the marked in Europe to pick up. A person could easily build up 1000-2000 hours, and be better qualified for jobs back home. I know of a few people that moved to Africa and flew there for a short period of time, before returning to Europe...
Point taken.
But what about moving outside the UK? If a person is able to relocate then I would consider instructing in the US for a year or two while waiting for the marked in Europe to pick up. A person could easily build up 1000-2000 hours, and be better qualified for jobs back home. I know of a few people that moved to Africa and flew there for a short period of time, before returning to Europe...
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
From: Surrey
Lard,
Point taken. I realise that it takes buckets of skill, intelligence, hard work and not to mention luck to become an airline pilot.
Just seems sometimes to be the case; although we really know its not!!
It would be interesting to find out some numbers (oh no talking about statistics again ) to see how many CPLs/IRs are issued each year compared to airline jobs (in a good year).
Point taken. I realise that it takes buckets of skill, intelligence, hard work and not to mention luck to become an airline pilot.
Just seems sometimes to be the case; although we really know its not!!
It would be interesting to find out some numbers (oh no talking about statistics again
) to see how many CPLs/IRs are issued each year compared to airline jobs (in a good year).
Moderator
Joined: Dec 1997
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,929
Likes: 6
From: Suffolk UK
As things stand, I believe the UK may well be the best place to be over the next couple of years. The US airlines were far harder hit by the post-Sep 11th fallout than we were, and that means there are many, many airline pilots over there trying to get employment wherever they can - obviously including flight schools, for the appropriately qualified. Europe was also hit badly by the failures of Sabena and Swissair, and the generally less-encouraging economic picture on the continent will delay recovery longer than here.
In UK, the low-cost sector is absolutely on a roll, and looking to expand both here and in mainland Europe. As they are based, and recruit, in UK (or Eire), this is probably the best place o be to catch the recovery. The IT and long-haul airlines here are also beginning to look beyond the immediate horizon towards future expansion.
It's not here yet, but recovery throughout the UK industry isn't that far away. As WWW says, in two years' time the UK airlines may be struggling to fill their pilot seats!
In UK, the low-cost sector is absolutely on a roll, and looking to expand both here and in mainland Europe. As they are based, and recruit, in UK (or Eire), this is probably the best place o be to catch the recovery. The IT and long-haul airlines here are also beginning to look beyond the immediate horizon towards future expansion.
It's not here yet, but recovery throughout the UK industry isn't that far away. As WWW says, in two years' time the UK airlines may be struggling to fill their pilot seats!
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
From: UK
What I do not understand is the following.
I have flown on the following trips recently:
BA to Bangkok - Aircraft full
BA to Sydney, return via Singapore - Aircraft full to Singapore 75% load to Sydney
BA to Johanessburg - Aircraft full
BA to Bahrain - Aircraft 90%
BA to Cairo - Full
Buzz to Paris - Full
BA to Munich - Full
GO to Edinburgh - Full
So what's all this nonesense about people not travelling anymore, or business class travellers not doing business (the above were all in business or first, so I had a good indication)? At the end of day, you still need to meet customers/potential customers face-to-face.
Business is picking up, there's no doubt about it - my industry is beginning to recover. We had the last 12 months being pretty bad, but since Feb, things have picked up dramatically.
I have not gone back on the Atlantic recently, but I believe BA loads are farily respectable.
Add to this the coming summer months, and things should be well back on track for many.
I have flown on the following trips recently:
BA to Bangkok - Aircraft full
BA to Sydney, return via Singapore - Aircraft full to Singapore 75% load to Sydney
BA to Johanessburg - Aircraft full
BA to Bahrain - Aircraft 90%
BA to Cairo - Full
Buzz to Paris - Full
BA to Munich - Full
GO to Edinburgh - Full
So what's all this nonesense about people not travelling anymore, or business class travellers not doing business (the above were all in business or first, so I had a good indication)? At the end of day, you still need to meet customers/potential customers face-to-face.
Business is picking up, there's no doubt about it - my industry is beginning to recover. We had the last 12 months being pretty bad, but since Feb, things have picked up dramatically.
I have not gone back on the Atlantic recently, but I believe BA loads are farily respectable.
Add to this the coming summer months, and things should be well back on track for many.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Joined: Feb 1997
Posts: 4,910
Likes: 184
From: Duit On Mon Dei
People are travelling but they aren't paying what they used to. There fore the airlines aren't making as much money. It's called yield management. At the moment, the airlines are trying to stimulate demand to get people moving. In the retail game, it's known as a "loss leader".
Moderator
Joined: Dec 1997
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,929
Likes: 6
From: Suffolk UK
no sponsor
The problem is that the cabins are full of passengers on promotional fares, which don't make money but fill seats(and, remember, there are considerably fewer aeroplanes - thus seats - than there were last summer). Business and first class full-fare passengers are conspicuously absent at the moment, but those seats are being filled with economy upgrades. So, while the aeroplanes are full, there's no profit - yet. You'll start to see fares edging up as the bookings increase - in fact that's already happening. Once yields (ie profit) are getting close to where they were in 2001, you'll see capacity increases on the routes affected after 9/11. Indeed, BA and Virgin have announced some service re-introductions to take place later in the year, but it's a slower proces than you might think.
The problem is that the cabins are full of passengers on promotional fares, which don't make money but fill seats(and, remember, there are considerably fewer aeroplanes - thus seats - than there were last summer). Business and first class full-fare passengers are conspicuously absent at the moment, but those seats are being filled with economy upgrades. So, while the aeroplanes are full, there's no profit - yet. You'll start to see fares edging up as the bookings increase - in fact that's already happening. Once yields (ie profit) are getting close to where they were in 2001, you'll see capacity increases on the routes affected after 9/11. Indeed, BA and Virgin have announced some service re-introductions to take place later in the year, but it's a slower proces than you might think.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
From: UK
From a charter/IT point of view, I can see things picking up towards the end of the year or the beginning of 2003.
Currently, we are short of Airbus crew and, despite management saying so, short of Boeing crew. Our working lives are pretty miserable in terms of quality of life because, although the jobs are there, the company is just not prepared to make the financial investment in training at the moment. We are, simply, understaffed.
As we all reach our allotted monthly and yearly hours, the airline is going to be in a bind, notice that all the flights are full and we're doing pretty well thankyouverymuch, and the hiring will begin.
Not on a mammoth scale, but heavy jet seats attract turbo-prop pilots who in turn leave jobs for newly qualified CPLs. Most charter companies train in the quiet(er) winter season, so keep chipping away at them.
I don't know anything about scheduled carriers, and from the snippets I pick up, it always seems as though they're in some restructuring/downsizing/expanding/whatever program ! More difficult to predict, for me anyway.
There are (nearly) always jobs for experienced pilots with a type-rating. Unfortunately, the ratio of jobs available to those who want them for 500 hour CPLs is much, much lower.
Only a guess, but a positive one - I wouldn't be surprised if the sponsorships started appearing again slowly next year. Sponsorships are generally a good deal for an airline but I also wouldn't be surprised if you needed a bit more than zero hours and a lot of enthusiam. (see Astreus !)
As always, good luck.
Currently, we are short of Airbus crew and, despite management saying so, short of Boeing crew. Our working lives are pretty miserable in terms of quality of life because, although the jobs are there, the company is just not prepared to make the financial investment in training at the moment. We are, simply, understaffed.
As we all reach our allotted monthly and yearly hours, the airline is going to be in a bind, notice that all the flights are full and we're doing pretty well thankyouverymuch, and the hiring will begin.
Not on a mammoth scale, but heavy jet seats attract turbo-prop pilots who in turn leave jobs for newly qualified CPLs. Most charter companies train in the quiet(er) winter season, so keep chipping away at them.
I don't know anything about scheduled carriers, and from the snippets I pick up, it always seems as though they're in some restructuring/downsizing/expanding/whatever program ! More difficult to predict, for me anyway.
There are (nearly) always jobs for experienced pilots with a type-rating. Unfortunately, the ratio of jobs available to those who want them for 500 hour CPLs is much, much lower.
Only a guess, but a positive one - I wouldn't be surprised if the sponsorships started appearing again slowly next year. Sponsorships are generally a good deal for an airline but I also wouldn't be surprised if you needed a bit more than zero hours and a lot of enthusiam. (see Astreus !)
As always, good luck.
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
From: UK
I somewhat disagree, when I look at my own circumstances.
I travel full fare in business, since promotional fares are pretty useless, as you don't have the flexibility you need when meetings change, or you need to catch different flights due to unforeseen circumstances, which is a must on nearly all trips I do.
Sure, BA offer some promotional offers, but usually I get deals when I've committed to so much business full fare travel. Upgrades happen very rarely to people, and only occur when a class is full. I have often travelled in Economy when on holiday, praying that the flight is full, so I can get upgraded, only to find economy has too many spare seats for them to upgrade you, (and I am considered a pretty valuable customer to BA).
Just pop into a business lounge at LHR on a Monday morning to see the amount of business travellers on Club tickets.
At the end of the day, the "there are no premium travellers anymore" story is more fiction than fact.
I travel full fare in business, since promotional fares are pretty useless, as you don't have the flexibility you need when meetings change, or you need to catch different flights due to unforeseen circumstances, which is a must on nearly all trips I do.
Sure, BA offer some promotional offers, but usually I get deals when I've committed to so much business full fare travel. Upgrades happen very rarely to people, and only occur when a class is full. I have often travelled in Economy when on holiday, praying that the flight is full, so I can get upgraded, only to find economy has too many spare seats for them to upgrade you, (and I am considered a pretty valuable customer to BA).
Just pop into a business lounge at LHR on a Monday morning to see the amount of business travellers on Club tickets.
At the end of the day, the "there are no premium travellers anymore" story is more fiction than fact.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
From: Alba sor
Its true that BA have cut fares on their domestic network, but not on their long haul flights. I have been checking out tickets for a trip to Oz and they are not any cheaper than normal, so economy yield is not an issue, and as others have said, business yield is improving. They have cut back on flights though which I guess is making the existing flights more busy, but they will have to increase flights sooner or later, lets hope sooner.
