Go around from Non-Precision Approach
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Go around from Non-Precision Approach
Scenario.
Single-engine turboprop approach, NDB / DME. MDA of 410' feet. Chart states missed approach point at LCTR. I would fly this as follows. Level out and fly at 410' at just over a mile out and track to LCTR, maintaining 410'. If not visual, go-around at LCTR.
I am being told by an instructor I must initiate Go-around immediately upon reaching MDA, and not continue to MAP on chart, which is at LCTR. (That is what I always did on initial IR...)
Am I missing something?
Single-engine turboprop approach, NDB / DME. MDA of 410' feet. Chart states missed approach point at LCTR. I would fly this as follows. Level out and fly at 410' at just over a mile out and track to LCTR, maintaining 410'. If not visual, go-around at LCTR.
I am being told by an instructor I must initiate Go-around immediately upon reaching MDA, and not continue to MAP on chart, which is at LCTR. (That is what I always did on initial IR...)
Am I missing something?
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The not so new way of airline ops is to fly a persudo ILS with continuous decent and go around when you get to MDA. FLy the lateral profile of the go-around, so do still continue to the MAPt before changing your heading.
EU ops has banned dive and drive for all commercial operations.
EU ops has banned dive and drive for all commercial operations.
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Thanks MAD JOCK. Gulp.... Thank god I asked. Just to reiterate, treat all MDA on NDB approaches as a DH and get the hell out of there???
(Are there publications stating this?)
Do you fly to the Shetland islands etc by any chance?
(Are there publications stating this?)
Do you fly to the Shetland islands etc by any chance?
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Not really.
EU-ops will have it in somewhere.
It is also normal to turn the MDA into a DH by adding something sensible onto to it depending on the type 30-50 ft for TP's.
Yes I have flown into shetland and the other islands a reasonable amount but not currently.
EU-ops will have it in somewhere.
It is also normal to turn the MDA into a DH by adding something sensible onto to it depending on the type 30-50 ft for TP's.
Yes I have flown into shetland and the other islands a reasonable amount but not currently.
Last edited by mad_jock; 26th Aug 2012 at 13:06.
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A DA has an allowance for sink below the actual DA. Most airlines add 50' to an MDA when flying a pseudo 3 degree path so that the aircraft does not go below the MDA in the event of a go around.
Last edited by 763 jock; 26th Aug 2012 at 13:38.
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Of course all this is just a nicety for noise abatement etc. If the weather is rubbish and you need to get in the I'd be inclined to drop to MDA and truck in until I see the lights.
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767 is correct and sorry for not using the correct term DA as they have done.
Its not its due to the high number of aircraft that have had major incidents with coming in completely unstablised approaches by diving and driving.
There is also the issue that in a vast majority of NPA's the MAPt is in a position that it is impossible to get to the runway from.
The more momentum you have the more hairy the approach from close in.
Yes when your flying a 2 ton light aircraft doing 70knts to a 2000m runway its not much of a concern. 10tons plus doing 140knts fully configured it gets ropey as hell.
Of course all this is just a nicety for noise abatement etc
There is also the issue that in a vast majority of NPA's the MAPt is in a position that it is impossible to get to the runway from.
The more momentum you have the more hairy the approach from close in.
Yes when your flying a 2 ton light aircraft doing 70knts to a 2000m runway its not much of a concern. 10tons plus doing 140knts fully configured it gets ropey as hell.
Last edited by mad_jock; 26th Aug 2012 at 13:33.
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Don't have to tell me that, I fly a 70 tonner Maybe all these non-precision approaches hark from a time when pilots were regularly hand flying approaches using the needles and had a better sense of when to go for it and when not to.
I like to think that the MAPt is merely the point where you begin the Missed Approach Procedure rather than the last point where you can get it in, you shouldn't need a MAPt to know that you're probably not going to get it in at say 0.5nm at 600ft
I like to think that the MAPt is merely the point where you begin the Missed Approach Procedure rather than the last point where you can get it in, you shouldn't need a MAPt to know that you're probably not going to get it in at say 0.5nm at 600ft
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Originally Posted by kharmael
I like to think that the MAPt is merely the point where you begin the Missed Approach Procedure rather than the last point where you can get it in, you shouldn't need a MAPt to know that you're probably not going to get it in at say 0.5nm at 600ft
I agree, it doesn't make a sense to make a go-around at DA in 2 ton MEP or even lighter SEP, if you can increase your chances of getting to runway by flying a level segment to MAPt, but it's a no-no in a larger turbine-powered aircraft, where you'll most likely become unstable (thrust, ROD).
Originally Posted by kharmael
Of course all this is just a nicety for noise abatement etc. If the weather is rubbish and you need to get in the I'd be inclined to drop to MDA and truck in until I see the lights.
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I fly a Turboprop, and we (used to) fly NP approaches in the intermediate configuration of 50% flap with the gear down which means you can fly at a neutral deck angle, then you'd take full flap at the last minute, or just land at 50% flap taking into account the extra LDR. Obviously if you're tight on LDA or limiting speeds then you'd have to think about it but then you're into diversion territory
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"I agree, it doesn't make a sense to make a go-around at DA in 2 ton MEP or even lighter SEP, if you can increase your chances of getting to runway by flying a level segment to MAPt,"
There are often no performance figures for dragging in for long periods with flaps and gear down....
There are often no performance figures for dragging in for long periods with flaps and gear down....
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Originally Posted by paco
There are often no performance figures for dragging in for long periods with flaps and gear down....
And after all, we're talking level flight in landing configuration from VDP to MAPt - which is maximum 2 or 3 miles, not from London to New York
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Wasn't there a big thing at BHX that used the wrong DME that dragged it in for 10miles at MDA on the NDB onto 33 when the pile of soil meant the ILS was out.
Crew jumped on a company aircraft and legged it and the AAIB got involved and pulled all the boxes.
Crew jumped on a company aircraft and legged it and the AAIB got involved and pulled all the boxes.
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Scenario.
Single-engine turboprop approach, NDB / DME. MDA of 410' feet. Chart states missed approach point at LCTR. I would fly this as follows. Level out and fly at 410' at just over a mile out and track to LCTR, maintaining 410'. If not visual, go-around at LCTR.
I am being told by an instructor I must initiate Go-around immediately upon reaching MDA, and not continue to MAP on chart, which is at LCTR. (That is what I always did on initial IR...)
Am I missing something?
Single-engine turboprop approach, NDB / DME. MDA of 410' feet. Chart states missed approach point at LCTR. I would fly this as follows. Level out and fly at 410' at just over a mile out and track to LCTR, maintaining 410'. If not visual, go-around at LCTR.
I am being told by an instructor I must initiate Go-around immediately upon reaching MDA, and not continue to MAP on chart, which is at LCTR. (That is what I always did on initial IR...)
Am I missing something?
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Sorry, didn't make myself clear enough (thinking in shorthand again):
There is the temptation of a dirty dart for the runway if you see it, without really being in a position to cope with the situation—you are in a high drag landing configuration, and likely have been for some time. There are no performance figures for go-arounds under those conditions.
There is the temptation of a dirty dart for the runway if you see it, without really being in a position to cope with the situation—you are in a high drag landing configuration, and likely have been for some time. There are no performance figures for go-arounds under those conditions.
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Another one worth reading here:
Air Accidents Investigation: BN2A MK III-2 Trislander, G-FTSE
‘EU OPS 1.430(d)2. All non-precision approaches shall be flown using the continuous descent final approaches (CDFA) technique unless otherwise approved by the Authority for a particular approach to a particular runway.’
Air Accidents Investigation: BN2A MK III-2 Trislander, G-FTSE
‘EU OPS 1.430(d)2. All non-precision approaches shall be flown using the continuous descent final approaches (CDFA) technique unless otherwise approved by the Authority for a particular approach to a particular runway.’