The True £Saving Of Modular Over Integrated
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The True £Saving Of Modular Over Integrated
Hello all,
Just looking for some confirmation really. I've read many posts on here and have done a lot of my own research into the subject, but could a few of you with experience in the field double check my figures please? I haven't seen anyone that summarises what I'm looking for yet.
I'm 18 and considering whether to go modular or integrated, so I've planned out the total, finalised cost of each. I've used the same FTO to make it a fair comparison, and also out of personal preference having been to many open days.
Integrated:
£250 - Skills Assessment
£79,800 - CAEOAA APPFO
£4,950 - Accomodation (UK, 11 months)
£8,000 - Living Expenses (UK/AZ, 16 months)
£27,500 - Type Rating with UK Airline
£341 - Class 1 Medical Initial
£150 - Class 1 Medical Renewal
Integrated Total: £120,991
Modular:
£9,450 - PPL (45 hours) at Local School
£14,175 - 105 Hours (Hour Building at Local School)
£4,800 - ATPL Theory Exams at CAEOAA
£35,000 - Waypoint Course (CPL/IR/ME) at CAEOAA
£2,000 - JOC at CAEOAA
£3,600 - Accomodation (UK, 8 months)
£4,050 - Living Expenses (UK/AZ, 9 months)
£27,500 - Type Rating with UK Airline
£341 - Class 1 Medical Initial
£150 - Class 1 Medical Renewal
Modular Total: £101,066
Total saving of Modular over Integrated: £19,925.
Would appreciate any thoughts/opinions on this, and how close I am to other people's estimates/actual costs.
Just looking for some confirmation really. I've read many posts on here and have done a lot of my own research into the subject, but could a few of you with experience in the field double check my figures please? I haven't seen anyone that summarises what I'm looking for yet.
I'm 18 and considering whether to go modular or integrated, so I've planned out the total, finalised cost of each. I've used the same FTO to make it a fair comparison, and also out of personal preference having been to many open days.
Integrated:
£250 - Skills Assessment
£79,800 - CAEOAA APPFO
£4,950 - Accomodation (UK, 11 months)
£8,000 - Living Expenses (UK/AZ, 16 months)
£27,500 - Type Rating with UK Airline
£341 - Class 1 Medical Initial
£150 - Class 1 Medical Renewal
Integrated Total: £120,991
Modular:
£9,450 - PPL (45 hours) at Local School
£14,175 - 105 Hours (Hour Building at Local School)
£4,800 - ATPL Theory Exams at CAEOAA
£35,000 - Waypoint Course (CPL/IR/ME) at CAEOAA
£2,000 - JOC at CAEOAA
£3,600 - Accomodation (UK, 8 months)
£4,050 - Living Expenses (UK/AZ, 9 months)
£27,500 - Type Rating with UK Airline
£341 - Class 1 Medical Initial
£150 - Class 1 Medical Renewal
Modular Total: £101,066
Total saving of Modular over Integrated: £19,925.
Would appreciate any thoughts/opinions on this, and how close I am to other people's estimates/actual costs.
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Have you looked at a modular course anywhere else?? You could easily save enough cash to pay for a TR down the line. (Hopefully by the time you finish training the industry will have sorted itself out and be paying for TRs!!)
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Whilst I am sure that your figures are broadbrush accurate, what are they based on? By that I mean what do you want to do then?
The "UK airline type rating" isn't some sort of passport into an airline career.
Most airlines are also TRTO's and have little problem type rating their own job candidates. For jobs that require a type rating, they usually also require commensurate experience (minimum 500 to 1000 hours on type.) Where the type rating is supplied by the airline, it is normally by way of a contract or "bonding" agreement. There are companies that will require an applicant to pay in full or in part, for their type rating training, but those companies are usually looking for experienced applicants in the first place.
For cadet programmes, it normally requires the applicant to have completed a recognised course of training at an affiliated training organisation. Those cadet programmes may or may not require an applicant to fund their own type rating.
How do these figures stack up for a cadet training course at a well know FTO specialising in these type of courses.
Training bond £69,000
Foundation course £10,000
Accomodation costs (included)
Living expenses £8,000
Misc insurances etc. £4,000
MCC + JOC (included)
A320 Type rating (included*) * Subject to placement airline
500 hours line experience as cadet (included and part remunerated by Airline and Training bond)
Contract of employment (depending on airlines requirements at that point.)
Total.... £91,000 and the good possibility of a placement and subsequent career with an airline at completion.
Something else to consider?
The "UK airline type rating" isn't some sort of passport into an airline career.
Most airlines are also TRTO's and have little problem type rating their own job candidates. For jobs that require a type rating, they usually also require commensurate experience (minimum 500 to 1000 hours on type.) Where the type rating is supplied by the airline, it is normally by way of a contract or "bonding" agreement. There are companies that will require an applicant to pay in full or in part, for their type rating training, but those companies are usually looking for experienced applicants in the first place.
For cadet programmes, it normally requires the applicant to have completed a recognised course of training at an affiliated training organisation. Those cadet programmes may or may not require an applicant to fund their own type rating.
How do these figures stack up for a cadet training course at a well know FTO specialising in these type of courses.
Training bond £69,000
Foundation course £10,000
Accomodation costs (included)
Living expenses £8,000
Misc insurances etc. £4,000
MCC + JOC (included)
A320 Type rating (included*) * Subject to placement airline
500 hours line experience as cadet (included and part remunerated by Airline and Training bond)
Contract of employment (depending on airlines requirements at that point.)
Total.... £91,000 and the good possibility of a placement and subsequent career with an airline at completion.
Something else to consider?
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I know you're talking about CTC Wings. I'm not sure why you still refer to the £69k as a 'training bond'.
Was it not originally referred to as such because it was repaid fully upon placement with an airline?
Knowing that proper employment and full bond repayment upon placement is a thing of the past where Wings is concerned (and that you're alluding to Flexi), how much of the bond is repaid as mentioned above?
Was it not originally referred to as such because it was repaid fully upon placement with an airline?
Originally Posted by Bealzebub
500 hours line experience as cadet (included and part remunerated by Airline and Training bond)
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I know you're talking about CTC Wings. I'm not sure why you still refer to the £69k as a 'training bond'
I wasn't referring to "flexi," and indeed different programmes utilize different arrangements. In the examples of which I am aware, I believe the sum is around 12% within six months, and the balance is discharged as mentioned above, once on an employment contract.
"Flexicrew" is discussed at much length on these forums, and may well employ different arrangements. Other people will have a greater knowledge of those arrangements than I do.
Last edited by Bealzebub; 24th Aug 2012 at 21:28.
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The price you have calculated for going Modular is quite excessive in my opinion! Im in the middle of modular training and have estimated that i will have spent ~€55,000 by the end of it.
PPL (Irish FTO) - €10,000
DL ATPL (Bristol) - €2,500
Hour Building, 100 hours (IRE, Spain, Florida) - €9,000
CPL/IR/MEP (FTE Jerez) - €27,500
Accomodation/Living Expences and air fares in Spain and Florida - €5,000
I'll worry about the MCC and TR when it comes to it
My advice is shop around, but don't just take the cheapest option! Best of luck
PPL (Irish FTO) - €10,000
DL ATPL (Bristol) - €2,500
Hour Building, 100 hours (IRE, Spain, Florida) - €9,000
CPL/IR/MEP (FTE Jerez) - €27,500
Accomodation/Living Expences and air fares in Spain and Florida - €5,000
I'll worry about the MCC and TR when it comes to it
My advice is shop around, but don't just take the cheapest option! Best of luck
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The flip side is the job prospects.
Wrongly, a modular guy seems to be usually passed over and I have a few friends who went modular who wish they had paid the extra for an integrated course, as they strongly believe they would be flying rather than CCing now.
Plus and Minuses for each way to go.
No job is ever guaranteed and you need a shed load of luck to find one, and even more lucky to find one quickly.
I was integrated, and extremely lucky to finish training and then one month later have an interview at the airline I now work for. I did pay for my own TR but I am very much "properly" employed with the airline now. My overall cost of training was just under 100k.
Wrongly, a modular guy seems to be usually passed over and I have a few friends who went modular who wish they had paid the extra for an integrated course, as they strongly believe they would be flying rather than CCing now.
Plus and Minuses for each way to go.
No job is ever guaranteed and you need a shed load of luck to find one, and even more lucky to find one quickly.
I was integrated, and extremely lucky to finish training and then one month later have an interview at the airline I now work for. I did pay for my own TR but I am very much "properly" employed with the airline now. My overall cost of training was just under 100k.
Last edited by i_like_tea; 25th Aug 2012 at 13:12.
For as long as OAA/CTC/FTE integrated students are graduating only to pay £30K or so on a type rating and job i.e. EZY/RYR - integrated training holds no benefit what so ever over modular.
When BA start recruiting non-tagged integrated graduates, then the value of the extra expense is restored and the integrated vs. modular debate can begin.
For now however, neither avenue holds much hope and only the very lucky/those with experience/those with enough money to pay for a TR and job will gain employment.
If you can't afford to 'buy a job', now is NOT the time to start training because you will be sorely disappointed.
When BA start recruiting non-tagged integrated graduates, then the value of the extra expense is restored and the integrated vs. modular debate can begin.
For now however, neither avenue holds much hope and only the very lucky/those with experience/those with enough money to pay for a TR and job will gain employment.
If you can't afford to 'buy a job', now is NOT the time to start training because you will be sorely disappointed.
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I think BA can only take "non-tagged" students from CTC from now on. However I think it less likely they would recruit "non-tagged" cadets with such large numbers on the FPP. FPP costs (incl living costs) are around £90-95k so this should be your first port of call together with other "tagged" schemes if airline flying is what you are aiming for.
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Originally Posted by student88
For as long as OAA/CTC/FTE integrated students are graduating only to pay £30K or so on a type rating and job i.e. EZY/RYR - integrated training holds no benefit what so ever over modular.
Well, why not enlighten me?
Lets face it, at the end of the day we're all looking for a job with a respectable airline, aren't we? Why should I spend £90K going to OAA when I could spend £50K at SFC, I know students from both schools who have recently graduated, ending up paying £30K for a MCC and TR with Ryanair.
Same job, same airline, one paid more than the other. Simples.
Lets face it, at the end of the day we're all looking for a job with a respectable airline, aren't we? Why should I spend £90K going to OAA when I could spend £50K at SFC, I know students from both schools who have recently graduated, ending up paying £30K for a MCC and TR with Ryanair.
Same job, same airline, one paid more than the other. Simples.
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There are jobs about - FACT.
I appreciate there is maybe not the pilot shortage to make it easy but there is movement.
Modular is not a poor alternative - FACT.
The majority of students completing courses with us are now now working is various airlines. All of them have obviously been Modular. We also have members who opted for Integrated who are still looking.
Airlines include Air Charter Scotland, Loganair, etc. Two guys who trained together with us were back helping us today with a charity event for Aviation without Borders; the fly with Jet2 and Ryanair.
It is not all doom and gloom!
I appreciate there is maybe not the pilot shortage to make it easy but there is movement.
Modular is not a poor alternative - FACT.
The majority of students completing courses with us are now now working is various airlines. All of them have obviously been Modular. We also have members who opted for Integrated who are still looking.
Airlines include Air Charter Scotland, Loganair, etc. Two guys who trained together with us were back helping us today with a charity event for Aviation without Borders; the fly with Jet2 and Ryanair.
It is not all doom and gloom!
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There are only four pillars of employment..stop debating...these are the facts.
1) You will get a job if you are a really good pilot (guaranteed)
2) You may get a job if you are very rich (although you might not keep it)
3) You might get a job if you are very lucky...although you might fail training, or IOE. prey you have a great IOE captain, or are really good!
4) You are very well connected...although as in option 3 you will get fired unless you are really good...
If you are really GOOD..you will get noticed eventually. In my airline, anything but 'really good' get's fired in week 3.
Don't worry about integrated, modular, yadda yadda yadda.. if you're any good you'll get a job. Cream always rises!
See the best of you on the line...not bitching on PPrune!
1) You will get a job if you are a really good pilot (guaranteed)
2) You may get a job if you are very rich (although you might not keep it)
3) You might get a job if you are very lucky...although you might fail training, or IOE. prey you have a great IOE captain, or are really good!
4) You are very well connected...although as in option 3 you will get fired unless you are really good...
If you are really GOOD..you will get noticed eventually. In my airline, anything but 'really good' get's fired in week 3.
Don't worry about integrated, modular, yadda yadda yadda.. if you're any good you'll get a job. Cream always rises!
See the best of you on the line...not bitching on PPrune!
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PPL in UK 6.5k to 7.5K depending where you go. You can get it cheaper in the US.
Hour building you can join a group you can get for 70 quid an hour wet or there are people who will hire you a plane dry for about 50 quid an hour (have to be a bit careful here we have had issues with advertising in the past) Or go to the US.
CPL IR
CPL with Airways for example £6100
IR either 15k if done first or £13300 if done after CPL.
MEP 3.5k
Only reason why I use them for an example is that I am very impressed with there product they are proberly not the cheapest but produce the goods.
Night if not done with PPL another 1.5k
MCC 2k
So your pricing is so so way off the mark.
If you are comparing doing the modular route at that particular school you are correct that its just as big waste of cash than self financing a intergrated course there.
Hour building you can join a group you can get for 70 quid an hour wet or there are people who will hire you a plane dry for about 50 quid an hour (have to be a bit careful here we have had issues with advertising in the past) Or go to the US.
CPL IR
CPL with Airways for example £6100
IR either 15k if done first or £13300 if done after CPL.
MEP 3.5k
Only reason why I use them for an example is that I am very impressed with there product they are proberly not the cheapest but produce the goods.
Night if not done with PPL another 1.5k
MCC 2k
So your pricing is so so way off the mark.
If you are comparing doing the modular route at that particular school you are correct that its just as big waste of cash than self financing a intergrated course there.
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Some answers are not to be found on Google.
Myself, along with several others I know, became hangar rats at our respective local airfields. Worked long and hard, got our hands dirty but earned favour and many free hours afterwards. Cheap PPLs and hours building, working 3 jobs (plus cleaning club aircraft, sweeping hangars etc) and you can get a fATPL for about £40k. You will make contacts who will be worth their weight in gold when you are qualified if you can make a good impression, the kind of opportunity you don't get at pilot factories.
Integrated, despite the marketing, offers no guarantees. Ryanair do not only take on Oxford's integrated students. I think ACKAIR's point is to with your attitude, both in the air and on the ground. If you have a good approach (no pun intended) to aviation and can keep your skills up, you will go places.
Good luck!
Myself, along with several others I know, became hangar rats at our respective local airfields. Worked long and hard, got our hands dirty but earned favour and many free hours afterwards. Cheap PPLs and hours building, working 3 jobs (plus cleaning club aircraft, sweeping hangars etc) and you can get a fATPL for about £40k. You will make contacts who will be worth their weight in gold when you are qualified if you can make a good impression, the kind of opportunity you don't get at pilot factories.
Integrated, despite the marketing, offers no guarantees. Ryanair do not only take on Oxford's integrated students. I think ACKAIR's point is to with your attitude, both in the air and on the ground. If you have a good approach (no pun intended) to aviation and can keep your skills up, you will go places.
Good luck!