The True £Saving Of Modular Over Integrated
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I think your modular figures are way over and you could knock at least 20,000-25,000 off that figure if you shop around.
You didn't include exam fees in your planning for modular.
Sometimes they are included in integrated.
You didn't include exam fees in your planning for modular.
Sometimes they are included in integrated.
Don't forget you can work whilst doing the ATPL exams so comparing to the integrated course you would probably be in profit whilst doing this part of the training.
Look at doing the IR in Europe and you could do the IR for around £7000. Get a share in something you can do the PPL and hour building on and I think you could do the modular route far cheaper than some people seem to be suggesting.
You will also have the opportunity to meet many people in the industry and get your name known whilst doing the modular route as well. Its all about networking after all.
Look at doing the IR in Europe and you could do the IR for around £7000. Get a share in something you can do the PPL and hour building on and I think you could do the modular route far cheaper than some people seem to be suggesting.
You will also have the opportunity to meet many people in the industry and get your name known whilst doing the modular route as well. Its all about networking after all.
Join Date: May 2001
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Thats because there is a major part of the industry including the NAA who doesn't want the facts to be out there.
They don't want the number of pilots starting training known and they certainly don't want the number actually getting jobs known either.
There is also the the fact that often quoted facts are actually taken from projected sales reports, which are reports of wishfull thinking.
To be honest posters on here are never going to change the thoughts of a 17-25 year old who has never had to work. I am not talking bar jobs and part time stuff I am talking about hard graft normal jobs. The marketing is geared to such people and it does work. I can still remember being suckered in by similar marketing when that age.
For a number of years I have posted past the original posters, my posts are aimed at the people who are going to provide the credit garantee for the loans.
I wonder how many students have gone modular or haven't started at all because the owner of the family capital has seen through the marketing and refused to put the whole family into debt possibly due to posts on here.
Unfortaunately it means that we have to continually reply to these debates just as Beazel has to reply so its not that negative. If he didn't his prefered method of training would disappear.
If you are on a tagged job scheme go for it. If you are self financed unless your family can afford to loose the lot either earn the money before you start or earn the money while you are doing the training.
There are thousands of CPL's out there that will never earn enough to cover thier training costs using it. Thats both methods of training.
They don't want the number of pilots starting training known and they certainly don't want the number actually getting jobs known either.
There is also the the fact that often quoted facts are actually taken from projected sales reports, which are reports of wishfull thinking.
To be honest posters on here are never going to change the thoughts of a 17-25 year old who has never had to work. I am not talking bar jobs and part time stuff I am talking about hard graft normal jobs. The marketing is geared to such people and it does work. I can still remember being suckered in by similar marketing when that age.
For a number of years I have posted past the original posters, my posts are aimed at the people who are going to provide the credit garantee for the loans.
I wonder how many students have gone modular or haven't started at all because the owner of the family capital has seen through the marketing and refused to put the whole family into debt possibly due to posts on here.
Unfortaunately it means that we have to continually reply to these debates just as Beazel has to reply so its not that negative. If he didn't his prefered method of training would disappear.
If you are on a tagged job scheme go for it. If you are self financed unless your family can afford to loose the lot either earn the money before you start or earn the money while you are doing the training.
There are thousands of CPL's out there that will never earn enough to cover thier training costs using it. Thats both methods of training.
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Unfortaunately it means that we have to continually reply to these debates just as Beazel has to reply so its not that negative. If he didn't his prefered method of training would disappear.
You think if I didn't point out the realities the "method of training" would disappear? You are wrong, it wouldn't! British airways, Thomas Cook, Thomson airways, Monarch, easyjet, DHL etc. They don't consult me for advice on their cadet programmes, but they all use this training method for their cadet programmes.
The vast majority of would be aspirants will select the cheapest route they can towards their goal of a licence. That is an economic reality. The realisation for many (who don't otherwise drop out en-route,) comes after they achieve their licence, and come to terms with the reality that having a 40k,50k,60k (or whatever) debt, is not a great accolade when the reality is that they cannot achieve these same cadet opportunities, more than that, they can rarely find any kind of flying job. The stepping stones towards their real goals, are few and far between, with some dangerous and very fast flowing waters inbetween.
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Those airlines you have quoted don't require enough supply to keep even a fraction of the current training supply in your prefered method viable.
So although they wouldn't completely disappear they would be a fraction of the current over supply. And if there is another slump due to fuel price or some other global hit to aviation and those airlines stop the cadet schemes the future is grim for that part of the training industry.
Of course if the supply dropped to the current level of demand then there would be no capacity to ramp up production when they required more than the current.
We have no arguments about the cadet schemes if they can get on one go for it.
Its the self financing of the same training which needs to be highlighted as a poor investment of both time and money.
So although they wouldn't completely disappear they would be a fraction of the current over supply. And if there is another slump due to fuel price or some other global hit to aviation and those airlines stop the cadet schemes the future is grim for that part of the training industry.
Of course if the supply dropped to the current level of demand then there would be no capacity to ramp up production when they required more than the current.
We have no arguments about the cadet schemes if they can get on one go for it.
Its the self financing of the same training which needs to be highlighted as a poor investment of both time and money.
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In both my own company, and the even larger company that my wife works for, I know a significant number of colleagues who have children going through ab-initio training. Of the 6 that I can recollect, there isn't a single one not utilising one of the Big 3 FTO's. In some cases the courses are tied to placements (albeit with no guarantee of anything,) and in some they are simply integrated courses of training. In addition I know 5 in my company and 2 in my wifes who have children graduated from such training programmes and now in airline jobs.
Now to be fair, the demographic is families with high incomes and relative high net worth. Affordability is clearly less of an issue within this specific group. Nevertheless it is interesting that those with the experience and knowledge to form an educated opinion, are selecting this methodology. I doubt it is because they want to "waste 25K."
The truth is that the methodology is economically driven. I have said it before and am now repeating it, but if I were offering a fully paid scholarship via the route of an applicants choice, I would be amazed if tied integrated programme wasn't the first choice (by far) and full time integrated programme mopping up any stragglers. The truth is that it is only economic necessity that keeps the third choice viable, and just as well that the option exists. The reality is that the prime jobs at this level of (in)experience are subject to much the same criteria from airlines who benefit from the training but do not have to assume the financial risk. QED!
The classic self improver route was never a particularly easy path even in strong economic cycles. This was when a basic CPL needed 700 hours and an airline job usually demanded at least three times this level of experience. Now it is the modular (self improvers) who believe the "aerial work" 250 hour licence with the same name, buys them a short cut to the same route. It simply doesn't. Even the traditional stepping stone jobs of instructing, aerial work, bush flying, corporate, air taxi, third and second tier airline turboprop opportunities, are few and far between. Even then the 65% slash in licence experience requirements means that so many more people are able to compete for those few opportunities.
If you think the integrated training market creates a large oversupply (and it does,) it is but a fraction of the oversuppy created by a far larger modular training industry. In the case of the latter, there are even fewer opportunities and teaming hoardes of people fighting for them.
I always say to people "think what it is you want?" because the route will lie in that answer. Possibly saving thousands of pounds may well be sensible if all you want is a CPL/IR. However for many that is not the end goal, and for those people they need to seriously research the market and seriously consider their options.
Now to be fair, the demographic is families with high incomes and relative high net worth. Affordability is clearly less of an issue within this specific group. Nevertheless it is interesting that those with the experience and knowledge to form an educated opinion, are selecting this methodology. I doubt it is because they want to "waste 25K."
The truth is that the methodology is economically driven. I have said it before and am now repeating it, but if I were offering a fully paid scholarship via the route of an applicants choice, I would be amazed if tied integrated programme wasn't the first choice (by far) and full time integrated programme mopping up any stragglers. The truth is that it is only economic necessity that keeps the third choice viable, and just as well that the option exists. The reality is that the prime jobs at this level of (in)experience are subject to much the same criteria from airlines who benefit from the training but do not have to assume the financial risk. QED!
The classic self improver route was never a particularly easy path even in strong economic cycles. This was when a basic CPL needed 700 hours and an airline job usually demanded at least three times this level of experience. Now it is the modular (self improvers) who believe the "aerial work" 250 hour licence with the same name, buys them a short cut to the same route. It simply doesn't. Even the traditional stepping stone jobs of instructing, aerial work, bush flying, corporate, air taxi, third and second tier airline turboprop opportunities, are few and far between. Even then the 65% slash in licence experience requirements means that so many more people are able to compete for those few opportunities.
If you think the integrated training market creates a large oversupply (and it does,) it is but a fraction of the oversuppy created by a far larger modular training industry. In the case of the latter, there are even fewer opportunities and teaming hoardes of people fighting for them.
I always say to people "think what it is you want?" because the route will lie in that answer. Possibly saving thousands of pounds may well be sensible if all you want is a CPL/IR. However for many that is not the end goal, and for those people they need to seriously research the market and seriously consider their options.
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Yep, but now that as you put it the, only way to jets is the cadetship method which I fully agree is the way to go if you get one.
There really is no point paying the premium if your not on one.
I think the whole industry has missed to boat and shot themselves in the foot by going down the cadetship route.
At least when you had to have one method of training to even apply you could sell this is the only way to have a chance, now if you don't get into a cadetship you have zero chance with the big boys and your at a disadvantage for other jobs because your training isn't suited for that enviroment. You know jobs that require you to know how to trim an aircraft and land in more than 10knts of xwind and fly a DME arc without a box of tricks to do it for you.
And the second/third tier is alive and well thanks with mod pilots getting work. Have flown/trained getting on for 20 odd different mod trained FO's in the last 2 years starting out and known of another 30 odd all flying Jet A burning machines. Each one of those pilots will be taking 30k odd out of the big school system. Alot of them did their 500 multi crew then went off to bigger things. Thats 1.5 million lost revenue which could have been subidising the training of the airlines which prefer integrated.
You should have a look how many logan and a few others are recruiting these days. It ain't as much as the loco's but more than BA.
I also know similar number of parents that have payed the dosh and wouldn't repeat the exercise. 2 have had to postpone thier retirements and the others now have another 10 years of morgage to pay off. And I will admit that 4 of them, the kids do have a job but the simple economics of having less than 2k a month income means they can't service the loans. The jobs they are in arn't ring fenced to one form of training. There mates are on the same money flying the same hardware with under half the loan to service.
I have also flown with 5-6 intergrated pilots who would have never dreamed of flying the heap that I do in years past but anything with wings and a couple of engines will do these days. The record is 165k euros of debt with 200k payed. He has a very nice license it has a citation rating, B737NG rating and a crappy turboprop. Which I might add excluding the base check on 737 was the most expensive rating to do but it was the only one he could get a job with. And the sad thing is he is chuffed to bits doing 500 hours a year getting payed less than he would if he had a made a career out of MacDonalds and vastly less than if he had become a train driver. Don't think he is to chuffed though having to put the bungs in and put the aircraft to bed in the
rain and snow which apprently he had been taught was an engineering function.
If you are on a cadetship go for it with my full support.
If you are self financing and putting any of your familys capital online don't pay the premium.
There really is no point paying the premium if your not on one.
I think the whole industry has missed to boat and shot themselves in the foot by going down the cadetship route.
At least when you had to have one method of training to even apply you could sell this is the only way to have a chance, now if you don't get into a cadetship you have zero chance with the big boys and your at a disadvantage for other jobs because your training isn't suited for that enviroment. You know jobs that require you to know how to trim an aircraft and land in more than 10knts of xwind and fly a DME arc without a box of tricks to do it for you.
And the second/third tier is alive and well thanks with mod pilots getting work. Have flown/trained getting on for 20 odd different mod trained FO's in the last 2 years starting out and known of another 30 odd all flying Jet A burning machines. Each one of those pilots will be taking 30k odd out of the big school system. Alot of them did their 500 multi crew then went off to bigger things. Thats 1.5 million lost revenue which could have been subidising the training of the airlines which prefer integrated.
You should have a look how many logan and a few others are recruiting these days. It ain't as much as the loco's but more than BA.
I also know similar number of parents that have payed the dosh and wouldn't repeat the exercise. 2 have had to postpone thier retirements and the others now have another 10 years of morgage to pay off. And I will admit that 4 of them, the kids do have a job but the simple economics of having less than 2k a month income means they can't service the loans. The jobs they are in arn't ring fenced to one form of training. There mates are on the same money flying the same hardware with under half the loan to service.
I have also flown with 5-6 intergrated pilots who would have never dreamed of flying the heap that I do in years past but anything with wings and a couple of engines will do these days. The record is 165k euros of debt with 200k payed. He has a very nice license it has a citation rating, B737NG rating and a crappy turboprop. Which I might add excluding the base check on 737 was the most expensive rating to do but it was the only one he could get a job with. And the sad thing is he is chuffed to bits doing 500 hours a year getting payed less than he would if he had a made a career out of MacDonalds and vastly less than if he had become a train driver. Don't think he is to chuffed though having to put the bungs in and put the aircraft to bed in the
rain and snow which apprently he had been taught was an engineering function.If you are on a cadetship go for it with my full support.
If you are self financing and putting any of your familys capital online don't pay the premium.
Last edited by mad_jock; 1st Sep 2012 at 10:29.
