Ryanair Scam!!
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Well, it may change in the near future (again) as I've just heard that Ryanair has just ordered 100 new aircraft with options for 75 more. I have no doubt that most of the people who are training for ATPL / CPL / Ir just now will be employed by airlines such as easyJet, Ryanair and Go (and possibly even bmiBaby, the new bmi low cost airline) in the near future
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pottsterI already have an airline job with which i got a FREE interview ,FREE sim ride and FREE type rating...Ok i am bonded which is and should be the norm for the time being until desperate guys like yourself ruin this. If other airlines adopt this scam which they will if they think pilots out there are willing to pay then guys like yourself are your own worst enemy.. .I assume you have worked hard and paid a lot of money to become a pilot so dont let airlines like this take the p***.. .You would be better to spend £50 on 3 mins in a seneca than to give your cash to Ryanair.. .Oh!!pottsterI'll have a big mac and large fries while you wait for your interview with Ryanair 
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No one is jumping the queue by taking a job with Ryanair, nor are they depriving others of a job. Ryanair's flirtation with their current unsavoury tactics will not last once they need pilots more than pilots need them - which could happen very soon! . .They will very quickly discover that those who joined under the current terms will leave when things get better elsewhere, as they will, and those that didn't apply then never will. With 800 new pilots required, that could give them a problem... .SkyGuy, get off your soapbox. Pottster hasn't done anything to affect your terms of service wherever you are lucky enough to work, and we all have to earn a crust. Just watch him and others queue up to leave in a couple of years' time.
Hmmm, I have mixed feelings about this whole thing. On the one hand its great that Ryan are expanding the actual market for aviation. It means more jobs for you and I.
On the other I dislike their fee based selection and training system. If I were a businessman though I guess it makes sense at the moment.
I actually doubt that they will get their fingers burnt over this - although a lot of people disagree with me who have a lot more experience in the industry... MOL very rapidly brought in the £25,000 type rating, reduced pay and pay for application/selection/sim/uniform etc. He could just as rapidly removed those costs.
There is very little corporate inertia in Ryan.
The moment applications start to wane MOL will be offering some stupendous deal such as the £100,000 Captains salary plus share options that was being trumpeted only 2 years ago. MOL gets great productivity out of pilots and the company earns serious money. If he needs to he has plenty of scope to put together great pilot pay packages.
The fact is at the moment he does not have to. Although the Ryan pay is pretty good when I look at friends pay packets who work for them...
Its a noble idea that the pilot community will remember the travesity of the current injustice with Ryan recruiting. I just feel that people have short memories, they like bases and lifestyle more than ethics, Ryans pay is fine and if they dangle a shiny new 738 NG in your face you will be hard pushed to turn them down.
The issue of lacking Captains is a valid point. FO's are ten a penny true enough but under IAA MOL only needs 3,000hrs and nearly all the low time guys will have this by the time they are in any position bond wise to leave FRA. Turn down an imminent command to go to the bottom of a FO seniority lise elsewhere? Probably not for a lot a people.
For the rest he can afford to pay big bucks from the money he has saved screwing people in the lean years (now).
Lets face it. 5 on 3 off in a 738 working for a successful airline on a total package of circa £100k IS going to get MOL a workable number of LHS chaps.
I don't like what MOL is doing, I do not wish to work for Ryan but I do think they know exactly what they are doing.
Perhaps IAA harmonisation with JAA will change the way FRA are allowed to operate and this will level the playing field somewhat. Nevertheless, full respect to a man and company that shifted immigrant Irish labour from SE England back home for a cheap price only to become the largest most successful fastest growing airline in Europe.
WWW
On the other I dislike their fee based selection and training system. If I were a businessman though I guess it makes sense at the moment.
I actually doubt that they will get their fingers burnt over this - although a lot of people disagree with me who have a lot more experience in the industry... MOL very rapidly brought in the £25,000 type rating, reduced pay and pay for application/selection/sim/uniform etc. He could just as rapidly removed those costs.
There is very little corporate inertia in Ryan.
The moment applications start to wane MOL will be offering some stupendous deal such as the £100,000 Captains salary plus share options that was being trumpeted only 2 years ago. MOL gets great productivity out of pilots and the company earns serious money. If he needs to he has plenty of scope to put together great pilot pay packages.
The fact is at the moment he does not have to. Although the Ryan pay is pretty good when I look at friends pay packets who work for them...
Its a noble idea that the pilot community will remember the travesity of the current injustice with Ryan recruiting. I just feel that people have short memories, they like bases and lifestyle more than ethics, Ryans pay is fine and if they dangle a shiny new 738 NG in your face you will be hard pushed to turn them down.
The issue of lacking Captains is a valid point. FO's are ten a penny true enough but under IAA MOL only needs 3,000hrs and nearly all the low time guys will have this by the time they are in any position bond wise to leave FRA. Turn down an imminent command to go to the bottom of a FO seniority lise elsewhere? Probably not for a lot a people.
For the rest he can afford to pay big bucks from the money he has saved screwing people in the lean years (now).
Lets face it. 5 on 3 off in a 738 working for a successful airline on a total package of circa £100k IS going to get MOL a workable number of LHS chaps.
I don't like what MOL is doing, I do not wish to work for Ryan but I do think they know exactly what they are doing.
Perhaps IAA harmonisation with JAA will change the way FRA are allowed to operate and this will level the playing field somewhat. Nevertheless, full respect to a man and company that shifted immigrant Irish labour from SE England back home for a cheap price only to become the largest most successful fastest growing airline in Europe.
WWW
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Agree with WWW.
MOL might not be the noblest of business men, but he is certainly shrewd.
Arrogant, cocky, flippant etc, but he knows the market. And like it or not, he holds the cards in what is currently (not always, but currently) a recruiters market. Fact of life.
We may not like it, but that is the reality at the moment. And at times like this, if Ryan are offering (potential) employment to pilots, then they can pretty much set the terms and conditions. If it was a choice between applying to Ryan (assuming you're not a timewaster) and going on the dole or a non-flying job, I think the vast majority would plump for Ryan, at least I would hope so.
It may stink, it may not be the way "things are done", but at this point in time, he can.
I also believe that this will not turn around and bite them on the ass in better times for the same reasons as WWW. Short memories, rising in seniority, inertia, comfort zone, call it what you will, you may get a few disgruntled guys moving on, but how is that different to not only other airlines, but any other employer you can think of ?
He ain't thick fellas, he is probably only too aware of the feelings amongst the pilot / wannabee communities, and when it suits, he will up the rewards / package to whatever it takes to maintain growth for Ryan, until then, it's their ball, they decide how to play.
For the record I don't like it but that's the reality.
MOL might not be the noblest of business men, but he is certainly shrewd.
Arrogant, cocky, flippant etc, but he knows the market. And like it or not, he holds the cards in what is currently (not always, but currently) a recruiters market. Fact of life.
We may not like it, but that is the reality at the moment. And at times like this, if Ryan are offering (potential) employment to pilots, then they can pretty much set the terms and conditions. If it was a choice between applying to Ryan (assuming you're not a timewaster) and going on the dole or a non-flying job, I think the vast majority would plump for Ryan, at least I would hope so.
It may stink, it may not be the way "things are done", but at this point in time, he can.
I also believe that this will not turn around and bite them on the ass in better times for the same reasons as WWW. Short memories, rising in seniority, inertia, comfort zone, call it what you will, you may get a few disgruntled guys moving on, but how is that different to not only other airlines, but any other employer you can think of ?
He ain't thick fellas, he is probably only too aware of the feelings amongst the pilot / wannabee communities, and when it suits, he will up the rewards / package to whatever it takes to maintain growth for Ryan, until then, it's their ball, they decide how to play.
For the record I don't like it but that's the reality.
ENTREPPRUNEUR
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I remember when I joined PPRuNe many years ago that it seemed am oasis of calm compared to the American bulletin boards where vitriol was flying about non-stop and the lingua franca was not English but Anglo-Saxon.
The main cause of this was PFT - Pay for Training.
Same sentiments - "Why are you all giving in???" "We'll get our revenge, one day" etc
As we have discussed before, this channel shows there are a lot of people who want to fly at any cost. If I owned an airline I would pay the pilots next to nothing.
Watch out it might easily get worse.
The main cause of this was PFT - Pay for Training.
Same sentiments - "Why are you all giving in???" "We'll get our revenge, one day" etc
As we have discussed before, this channel shows there are a lot of people who want to fly at any cost. If I owned an airline I would pay the pilots next to nothing.
Watch out it might easily get worse.
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Well said WWW. My main point is that we as pilots are on a slippery slope with this type of recruitment if other airlines see it to be working.. .I wish Ryanair luck esp in the current climate, but i have heard about lots of guys and gals paying for the application form and hearing nothing, is this just a licence to print money??
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<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> . .Pay for an application form!!!
Cannt be legal...???
This industry becomes more f@#*d up every week.. .Some people may admire his business skills but at the end of the day it comes down to one thing...he's a tw@t. And it will come round and bite him in the arse one day.
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: SOHCAHTOA ]</p>
Cannt be legal...???
This industry becomes more f@#*d up every week.. .Some people may admire his business skills but at the end of the day it comes down to one thing...he's a tw@t. And it will come round and bite him in the arse one day.
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: SOHCAHTOA ]</p>
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IVE JUST GOT ONE THING TO SAY TO YOU ALL. AND THAT IS STAY AWAY FROM RYANAIR. JUST DONT GO THERE BOYFRIEND AND GIRLFRIENDS.THEY ARE TAKING THE P*SS. WE ALL SHOULD SEND THEM REALLY NASTY EMAILS. ON WHY WE ARE NOT GOING TO INVOLVE ARE SELFS WITH THEM...AND ALSO LET THEM KNOW THAT WE WILL NOT TAKE THEIR CR*P, AND WILL BE INFORMING THE THE NEWS PAPERS, AND SHOWS LIKE. WATCHDOG WHICH MR RYANAIR LOVES TO HATE. JUST LET THE PUBLIC KNOW.. ARE YOU ALL WITH ME.
<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
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It looks like pprune agree with this type of recruitment just looking at the pop up at the top of the screen. COME ON PPRUNE WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!!!!!!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">
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Looks like liverbird had too much to drink that night. I think you'll find most pilots get their jobs with a free interview, although didn't British Midland charge an assessment fee for the initial psychometric testing at one stage? I could be wrong. Certainly had to pay nothing for the current job <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
It is morally wrong but MOL wouldn't have been able to do this this time last year.
Regarding earlier posts about what to do to gain experience, unfreeze ATPL's etc, is get flying anyway you can, instructing, aerotowing, photoship, whatever. You do not need a full ATPL to go RHS in a 2 crew aircraft. You should already have a frozen ATPL which is sufficient so what's the problem?
Spitfire747. .Fly for food. Really? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> That's not correct (or shouldn't be). You'll have spent a small fortune getting those ratings and I know that you want to fly for a living soooo soooo much. Been there myself. But I bet once you get your first airline job you'll be worrying about your pay, terms and conditions, rostering and all the other stuff attendant to airline flying that pilots whine about, despite it being the bestest job in the whole wide world. Why? Because it's human nature.. .You shouldn't sell yourself short.
Regards
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: climbs like a dog ]</p>
It is morally wrong but MOL wouldn't have been able to do this this time last year.
Regarding earlier posts about what to do to gain experience, unfreeze ATPL's etc, is get flying anyway you can, instructing, aerotowing, photoship, whatever. You do not need a full ATPL to go RHS in a 2 crew aircraft. You should already have a frozen ATPL which is sufficient so what's the problem?
Spitfire747. .Fly for food. Really? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> That's not correct (or shouldn't be). You'll have spent a small fortune getting those ratings and I know that you want to fly for a living soooo soooo much. Been there myself. But I bet once you get your first airline job you'll be worrying about your pay, terms and conditions, rostering and all the other stuff attendant to airline flying that pilots whine about, despite it being the bestest job in the whole wide world. Why? Because it's human nature.. .You shouldn't sell yourself short.
Regards
[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: climbs like a dog ]</p>
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'.......and they say the Irish are stupid?'
Must admit though, viewing figures for Watchdog would soar so to speak! But I really don't think the public would give two hoots about this, it's only us guys/gals that are concerned about it.
Must admit though, viewing figures for Watchdog would soar so to speak! But I really don't think the public would give two hoots about this, it's only us guys/gals that are concerned about it.
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It appears that Ryanair have started a trend, this is from the Astraeus advertisement.
There are some commitments we require from the final five candidates that successfully pass all the stages. As we stated earlier, the funding of the 737 type-rating comes from Astraeus paying our Training Company, Bond Aviation Solutions, a standard Junior First Officer six month's salary.
To protect ourselves from the cost of anyone being unable to complete the type-rating course we would expect the candidate to put up £6,000 of his or her own funds to be held in a separate account. After successfully completing the type rating course and having started line training the candidate will receive the £6,000 back at the rate of £1,000 a month into their bank account. In the unlikely event that a candidate fails to complete the type-rating course successfully they may be liable to forfeit some or all of the £6,000 on deposit.
After the completion of six months line flying, should the candidate not be offered a permanent contract of employment they will be free to take the qualification and experience elsewhere and will not owe anything for their training. This, we believe, is what makes the PPRuNe Career Development Scheme unique in our industry.
This initial strategy has minimum impact on the PPRuNe Fund and its limited resources enabling us to carry on with our plans for a broader Career Development Scheme aimed at those not yet fully qualified. We would therefore expect the successful candidates to put something back into the fund.
The successful candidate will have to agree that once they have a permanent contract of employment as a pilot they will pay back to the PPRuNe Fund, over a period of three years, a total sum of £3,000. This money will be put to use helping other wannabes to follow in their footsteps, acknowledging the first step on the pilot job ladder that the PPRuNe Fund gave them.
There are some commitments we require from the final five candidates that successfully pass all the stages. As we stated earlier, the funding of the 737 type-rating comes from Astraeus paying our Training Company, Bond Aviation Solutions, a standard Junior First Officer six month's salary.
To protect ourselves from the cost of anyone being unable to complete the type-rating course we would expect the candidate to put up £6,000 of his or her own funds to be held in a separate account. After successfully completing the type rating course and having started line training the candidate will receive the £6,000 back at the rate of £1,000 a month into their bank account. In the unlikely event that a candidate fails to complete the type-rating course successfully they may be liable to forfeit some or all of the £6,000 on deposit.
After the completion of six months line flying, should the candidate not be offered a permanent contract of employment they will be free to take the qualification and experience elsewhere and will not owe anything for their training. This, we believe, is what makes the PPRuNe Career Development Scheme unique in our industry.
This initial strategy has minimum impact on the PPRuNe Fund and its limited resources enabling us to carry on with our plans for a broader Career Development Scheme aimed at those not yet fully qualified. We would therefore expect the successful candidates to put something back into the fund.
The successful candidate will have to agree that once they have a permanent contract of employment as a pilot they will pay back to the PPRuNe Fund, over a period of three years, a total sum of £3,000. This money will be put to use helping other wannabes to follow in their footsteps, acknowledging the first step on the pilot job ladder that the PPRuNe Fund gave them.
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Mutt,
Nothing like taking things out of context eh.
The PPRuNe scheme is designed to allow a number of people to get a 737 rating and six months experience on type at no cost to the individual.
The Training bond is repaid, provided they successfully complete their course. Thats called risk sharing.
The quote you elected to put on this thread refers to the PPRuNe scheme.
Astraeus does not charge for online recruitment, interview or selection for permanent positions with the airline.
[ 28 January 2002: Message edited by: Hamrah ]</p>
Nothing like taking things out of context eh.
The PPRuNe scheme is designed to allow a number of people to get a 737 rating and six months experience on type at no cost to the individual.
The Training bond is repaid, provided they successfully complete their course. Thats called risk sharing.
The quote you elected to put on this thread refers to the PPRuNe scheme.
Astraeus does not charge for online recruitment, interview or selection for permanent positions with the airline.
[ 28 January 2002: Message edited by: Hamrah ]</p>
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Pottster. .Check the top of this page! This scheme is brand new, and has been produced after some very hard work by some of Pprune's senior folks who are now involved with Astraeus. The scheme is a tremendous way for Ppruners to get a shot at a 737 rating and the possibility of employment while contributing to the Pprune fund in order to help those who come after them.. .For those who would suggest thst this bears any relation to Ryanair's fleecing of Wannabes, don't let me hear you say that within my earshot. Your facial features may be substantially rearranged - at no financial cost to you!. .As for Ryanair's ads on Pprune - their tactics, while distasteful, are legal. At a time of extreme shortage of aviation employment opportunities, would it be fair of Pprune to deny folks the opportunity to judge Ryanair for themselves? Not to mention the fact that the charges for their ads help to keep this whole site here for your edification. It's your choice whether you click on the ads.....
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It seems on the face of it that the PPRuNe scheme is well intended by those at 'the towers'.
However, in the interests of equity, how do you justify saying: [quote]would it be fair of Pprune to deny folks the opportunity to judge Ryanair for themselves?<hr></blockquote> in almost the same breath as you threaten to rearrange the features of anyone suggesting there might be some comparison between the (apparently legal) actions of Ryanair and the PPRuNe/Astraeus scheme? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
It seems on the face of it that the PPRuNe scheme is well intended by those at 'the towers'.
However, in the interests of equity, how do you justify saying: [quote]would it be fair of Pprune to deny folks the opportunity to judge Ryanair for themselves?<hr></blockquote> in almost the same breath as you threaten to rearrange the features of anyone suggesting there might be some comparison between the (apparently legal) actions of Ryanair and the PPRuNe/Astraeus scheme? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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[b]Interested[/b}. .I don't understand your point. Are you suggesting that, though legal, we should censor Ryanair's ads? What would that achieve? And in what way is my (tongue-in-cheek) threat to those who would equate the Pprune scheme to Ryanair's 'inequitable'?. .To be fair (i.e. equitable) both schemes should be publicly available for Ppruners to scrutinise. If, having done so, you would find any similarities between the two schemes (other than that they involve 737 ratings), I, and others, would be intrigued to hear your reasoning <img src="eek.gif" border="0">