Ryanair Scam!!
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Recreational pilots can hold ATPLs, can have bundles of flying experience, including hands-on IFR experience (you know, the sort airline pilots get before 1000 feet on climb out and occasionally at the minima on approach, oh, and on currency check and training). They can have thousands of hours, and are often aircraft owners and operators. Some, for perfectly sound reasons, may have turned down many an offer to join an airline, including offers based on simulator assessments and those made by close friends and colleagues in the airline industry.
Oh, and the ‘recreational pilot’ best known to me actually dived into this thread to uphold principles of fairness and equity in pilot selection and recruitment, not to ‘dump’ on the Pprune scheme. Apologies to all, then, including the Pprune team. I should have known better than to post on a wannabe site when I am not now, nor ever again will be, a wannabe. I long ago became an ‘am’, in aviation as well as in the sense derived from Descartes.
Oh, and the ‘recreational pilot’ best known to me actually dived into this thread to uphold principles of fairness and equity in pilot selection and recruitment, not to ‘dump’ on the Pprune scheme. Apologies to all, then, including the Pprune team. I should have known better than to post on a wannabe site when I am not now, nor ever again will be, a wannabe. I long ago became an ‘am’, in aviation as well as in the sense derived from Descartes.
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Interested. .I really don't understand your motivation here. We are discussing the criteria for a programme designed to help those who have already achieved a frozen ATPL, because that is what is on offer. Neither Pprune nor Astraeus are in a position to offer subsidised training to ATPL level, however wonderful such a scheme would be. Perhaps you are, and perhaps you would. If you did, I would be among the first to welcome it.. .However, we have to live in the real world as we find it, and this (so far) is the best we have been able to do. I'm sorry it doesn't reach your standards of equitablity, or right all the wrongs in aviation. That is just tough.. .Now, perhaps if I wish for world peace it'll happen overnight.....
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Scroggs ]</p>
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Scroggs ]</p>
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
interestedApology accepted, thank you. The rest of the logic in your generalisation about how the vast majority of airline pilots must be extremely privileged and of sufficient wealth if they have not been through the RAF is again seriously flawed. I will assume it comes from a lack understanding of what is really involved in making that leap from desire to commitment.
I can remember back to the time when I was 21, not long out of a 3 year stint as a soldier and working out how many hours I had to work as a motorcycle courier to be able to afford one hour of tuition and flying for my PPL. The thought of ever actually becoming an airline pilot was considered just a fantasy, one beyond anything I could possibly achieve. I mean, how could anyone with only a few 'O' Levels and a love of aviation have a chance at such a dream job? I wasn't even eligible to apply as aircrew for the RAF or a sponsorship with BOAC because my laziness at school meant that I had no 'A' Levels.
As a youngster in my early 20's the idea that I would ever actually become an airline pilot was just a dream and I resigned myself to the fact that I could at least get a PPL and enjoy some of the privileges that it allows. With no qualifications I made the effort to try and get jobs connected to or involved with aviation such as working as a line service technician or maintenance co-ordinator for an airline to name a few. All the time I was spending every hard earned penny on flying and building my hours and experience.
For four years I flew whenever I could and because I had spent so much time in the USA I flew as cheaply as I could. By the time I was booted out of the USA I had accumulated nearly 200 hours of flying time. The next hurdle was finding myself back in the UK, penniless and in desperate need of some income. A few months living with my sister and her husband until I found a job as a canvasser for a home improvement company and earning enough to put down key money for a dingy flat left me with the realisation that I had to give up any notion of ever becoming an airline pilot. I also gave up flying and let my PPL lapse. I had come to a similar conclusion to yours that only very privileged people can become airline pilots.
For the next 8 years I worked my way up from the bottom of the heap through several different jobs and eventually had a mortgage. All through those 8 years I still maintained my interest in aviation and regularly read various magazines and books to try and keep abreast of what was going on. My partner who I was living with knew about my childhood desire to be an airline pilot after I was taken to visit the cockpit of an Iberia Caravelle when I was about 7 years old. It was my partner who encouraged me to make a decision about my future or forever live with the regret of not having at least tried.
In December 1990 I was made redundant and would have had little problem finding another job in the computer industry but the thought of my 9 to 5 existence was beginning to get me down. I still had that desire to fly for a living. It had been 8 years since I last exercised the privileges of my PPL and I was asking myself would I ever fly again? Because I was living with my partner and she was earning enough to support us she suggested that I should look into how much equity I could raise if I remortgaged my flat, which I was renting out, and find out how much it would actually cost to get my professional licence.
Suffice it to say that I took the plunge in 1991 at the ripe old age of 36 and renewed my PPL and started on a 3 year plan to get my CPL. In between taking time out to build hours in the USA because of the pre JAA requirement to have at least 700 hours to be eligible to even sit the ATPL exams I worked when I could. I had to do all my written exam studies by correspondence course and I knew I had to try and pass everything the first time because a resit would push my budget off the rails. I was committed, had a supportive partner and a very limited budget. It was a huge risk as far as I was concerned, not unlike the kind of risk hundreds of thousands of people take every year when they start their own businesses and this is an analogy I think you should apply to your reasoning.
More businesses fail than succeed but raising the money with a good plan is not beyond the reach of most 'non-privileged' people. The analogy I prefer to use if we are going to compare the costs of raising enough money to study for a professional pilots licence is that of the small business owner. In my case I raised nearly Ł17K from my remortgage and I added to that over the two and a half years I spent on my studies and exams from part time jobs. It took another few years until I got my break and was on that bottom rung of the pilot job ladder. It was only a first officer position flying a small turboprop but I was 38 years old and had realised my dream. Anything else would be icing on the cake.
Overall I estimate it cost me around Ł50k gross and nearly 4 years of sacrifice and effort. My return on that investment was priceless. I may only have been earning a subsistence wage in my first piloting job but there is nothing more satisfying than doing something you love and enjoy and getting some recompense for it. In the long term I would aim to build up my experience and fathom out how I was going to actually make a living at it.
Now coming back to your belief that most people who have had to raise the Ł50K or whatever must therefore be privileged means that anyone who has had to raise a similar amount in order to start their own business must also be privileged even though most of those businesses are going to fail within a few years. The one thing that I have found from most of the pilots I have had the privilege to meet over the years is that almost all of them took some form of risk to raise the money and put so much on the line before they ever had their first flying job, never mind their job at the controls of a passenger jet.
Therefore, your 'belief' that most of us are privileged to have been able to get where we are is wrong and that anyone who has invested Ł50K or whatever in their career prospects will have budgeted that bit extra to keep their investment alive. How they do that is up to them but if they have decided that their priorities lie elsewhere then it is not for us at PPRuNe or Astraeus to move the goalposts just to accommodate them. The financial aspects are only one part of the investment you have to make when you have a real desire to earn your living by sitting in a fast moving office with an ever changing scene outside the window.
Nothing beats that first flight of the day. It is damp and miserable outside. Low overcast and drizzle. You have completed the paperwork and the check and you are lined up on the runway, the end barely visible through the mist and water droplets on the windscreen. You are cleared for take off, push the thrust levers forward and start your next flight. As soon as you are airborne you are enveloped in the low cloud and you are working very hard to follow your procedure and complete your checks. After a few minutes you break through the top of the clouds into glorious sunshine and the world appears to be a different place. To cap it off you know there's a coffee on the way and you are earning a living from all the enjoyment and satisfaction you get from doing your job and your hobby in a professional and safe manner.
We are privileged to be there but the vast majority of us did not get there because we were privileged... if you get my drift.
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]</p>
I can remember back to the time when I was 21, not long out of a 3 year stint as a soldier and working out how many hours I had to work as a motorcycle courier to be able to afford one hour of tuition and flying for my PPL. The thought of ever actually becoming an airline pilot was considered just a fantasy, one beyond anything I could possibly achieve. I mean, how could anyone with only a few 'O' Levels and a love of aviation have a chance at such a dream job? I wasn't even eligible to apply as aircrew for the RAF or a sponsorship with BOAC because my laziness at school meant that I had no 'A' Levels.
As a youngster in my early 20's the idea that I would ever actually become an airline pilot was just a dream and I resigned myself to the fact that I could at least get a PPL and enjoy some of the privileges that it allows. With no qualifications I made the effort to try and get jobs connected to or involved with aviation such as working as a line service technician or maintenance co-ordinator for an airline to name a few. All the time I was spending every hard earned penny on flying and building my hours and experience.
For four years I flew whenever I could and because I had spent so much time in the USA I flew as cheaply as I could. By the time I was booted out of the USA I had accumulated nearly 200 hours of flying time. The next hurdle was finding myself back in the UK, penniless and in desperate need of some income. A few months living with my sister and her husband until I found a job as a canvasser for a home improvement company and earning enough to put down key money for a dingy flat left me with the realisation that I had to give up any notion of ever becoming an airline pilot. I also gave up flying and let my PPL lapse. I had come to a similar conclusion to yours that only very privileged people can become airline pilots.
For the next 8 years I worked my way up from the bottom of the heap through several different jobs and eventually had a mortgage. All through those 8 years I still maintained my interest in aviation and regularly read various magazines and books to try and keep abreast of what was going on. My partner who I was living with knew about my childhood desire to be an airline pilot after I was taken to visit the cockpit of an Iberia Caravelle when I was about 7 years old. It was my partner who encouraged me to make a decision about my future or forever live with the regret of not having at least tried.
In December 1990 I was made redundant and would have had little problem finding another job in the computer industry but the thought of my 9 to 5 existence was beginning to get me down. I still had that desire to fly for a living. It had been 8 years since I last exercised the privileges of my PPL and I was asking myself would I ever fly again? Because I was living with my partner and she was earning enough to support us she suggested that I should look into how much equity I could raise if I remortgaged my flat, which I was renting out, and find out how much it would actually cost to get my professional licence.
Suffice it to say that I took the plunge in 1991 at the ripe old age of 36 and renewed my PPL and started on a 3 year plan to get my CPL. In between taking time out to build hours in the USA because of the pre JAA requirement to have at least 700 hours to be eligible to even sit the ATPL exams I worked when I could. I had to do all my written exam studies by correspondence course and I knew I had to try and pass everything the first time because a resit would push my budget off the rails. I was committed, had a supportive partner and a very limited budget. It was a huge risk as far as I was concerned, not unlike the kind of risk hundreds of thousands of people take every year when they start their own businesses and this is an analogy I think you should apply to your reasoning.
More businesses fail than succeed but raising the money with a good plan is not beyond the reach of most 'non-privileged' people. The analogy I prefer to use if we are going to compare the costs of raising enough money to study for a professional pilots licence is that of the small business owner. In my case I raised nearly Ł17K from my remortgage and I added to that over the two and a half years I spent on my studies and exams from part time jobs. It took another few years until I got my break and was on that bottom rung of the pilot job ladder. It was only a first officer position flying a small turboprop but I was 38 years old and had realised my dream. Anything else would be icing on the cake.
Overall I estimate it cost me around Ł50k gross and nearly 4 years of sacrifice and effort. My return on that investment was priceless. I may only have been earning a subsistence wage in my first piloting job but there is nothing more satisfying than doing something you love and enjoy and getting some recompense for it. In the long term I would aim to build up my experience and fathom out how I was going to actually make a living at it.
Now coming back to your belief that most people who have had to raise the Ł50K or whatever must therefore be privileged means that anyone who has had to raise a similar amount in order to start their own business must also be privileged even though most of those businesses are going to fail within a few years. The one thing that I have found from most of the pilots I have had the privilege to meet over the years is that almost all of them took some form of risk to raise the money and put so much on the line before they ever had their first flying job, never mind their job at the controls of a passenger jet.
Therefore, your 'belief' that most of us are privileged to have been able to get where we are is wrong and that anyone who has invested Ł50K or whatever in their career prospects will have budgeted that bit extra to keep their investment alive. How they do that is up to them but if they have decided that their priorities lie elsewhere then it is not for us at PPRuNe or Astraeus to move the goalposts just to accommodate them. The financial aspects are only one part of the investment you have to make when you have a real desire to earn your living by sitting in a fast moving office with an ever changing scene outside the window.
Nothing beats that first flight of the day. It is damp and miserable outside. Low overcast and drizzle. You have completed the paperwork and the check and you are lined up on the runway, the end barely visible through the mist and water droplets on the windscreen. You are cleared for take off, push the thrust levers forward and start your next flight. As soon as you are airborne you are enveloped in the low cloud and you are working very hard to follow your procedure and complete your checks. After a few minutes you break through the top of the clouds into glorious sunshine and the world appears to be a different place. To cap it off you know there's a coffee on the way and you are earning a living from all the enjoyment and satisfaction you get from doing your job and your hobby in a professional and safe manner.
We are privileged to be there but the vast majority of us did not get there because we were privileged... if you get my drift.
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]</p>
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Scroggsie
Let us put this matter to rest for good. I am becoming bored with it. What is it about the language I have used that is so difficult to understand?
I am not a great contributor to Pprune, as you will see from the number of posts I make. I am, however, a regular Ppruner in the sense that I value the site and log on frequently. It is a great source of current aviation news, and surely even keen recreational pilots are welcome here?
It is this simple, really. I have long held views on the limited opportunities in the airline industry for those who are, shall we say, without funds. When I saw the banner regarding the Pprune scheme, I was interested (that is, after all, my username). I accessed the site and, largely out of curiosity, I entered my details. I was shocked to discover that there is this absolute insistence upon a current IR. The rest has followed from that, really.
If you feel I have been attacking the scheme overall, then I have created entirely the wrong impression. I am not. I would applaud any scheme that creates opportunities for those whose horizons are limited by lack of funding.
Like you, I deplore the scheme devised by Ryanair for its callously opportunistic abuse of career aspirants. But we seem to differ on the Pprune scheme. I hold that it is admirable, but biased toward those with the dosh rather than those without. God knows that holding and maintaining a current IR is a bloody expensive exercise, especially for those who have fairly recently spent the thousands to obtain the ATPL. Partly for this reason, I have frequently loaned my aircraft to those of my acquaintance seeking to renew an IR at minimal cost.
From what I can gather, Hamrah is perfectly well qualified and experienced to judge applicants' performance, whether or not their IR is current, and to make the necessary allowance for the level of currency. Why will he not do, or not be permitted to do, that here?
Now, I will post no more on this topic. It seems I am merely getting up everyone's noses, including the boss (Lord help me!). I have tried to make my point (apparently unsuccessfully) and I have pleaded on behalf of those less financially fortunate than I (again without success). I am not happy with the outcome, but I am happy to accept that I am not in a position to influence beyond my feeble efforts here.
[Late edit. While I was punching out my post above (laboriously ... and with two fingers) the Skipper posted the above. I will now go back and read it to see if he has decided to ban me <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> )
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: interested ]</p>
Let us put this matter to rest for good. I am becoming bored with it. What is it about the language I have used that is so difficult to understand?
I am not a great contributor to Pprune, as you will see from the number of posts I make. I am, however, a regular Ppruner in the sense that I value the site and log on frequently. It is a great source of current aviation news, and surely even keen recreational pilots are welcome here?
It is this simple, really. I have long held views on the limited opportunities in the airline industry for those who are, shall we say, without funds. When I saw the banner regarding the Pprune scheme, I was interested (that is, after all, my username). I accessed the site and, largely out of curiosity, I entered my details. I was shocked to discover that there is this absolute insistence upon a current IR. The rest has followed from that, really.
If you feel I have been attacking the scheme overall, then I have created entirely the wrong impression. I am not. I would applaud any scheme that creates opportunities for those whose horizons are limited by lack of funding.
Like you, I deplore the scheme devised by Ryanair for its callously opportunistic abuse of career aspirants. But we seem to differ on the Pprune scheme. I hold that it is admirable, but biased toward those with the dosh rather than those without. God knows that holding and maintaining a current IR is a bloody expensive exercise, especially for those who have fairly recently spent the thousands to obtain the ATPL. Partly for this reason, I have frequently loaned my aircraft to those of my acquaintance seeking to renew an IR at minimal cost.
From what I can gather, Hamrah is perfectly well qualified and experienced to judge applicants' performance, whether or not their IR is current, and to make the necessary allowance for the level of currency. Why will he not do, or not be permitted to do, that here?
Now, I will post no more on this topic. It seems I am merely getting up everyone's noses, including the boss (Lord help me!). I have tried to make my point (apparently unsuccessfully) and I have pleaded on behalf of those less financially fortunate than I (again without success). I am not happy with the outcome, but I am happy to accept that I am not in a position to influence beyond my feeble efforts here.
[Late edit. While I was punching out my post above (laboriously ... and with two fingers) the Skipper posted the above. I will now go back and read it to see if he has decided to ban me <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> )
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: interested ]</p>
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Thank you P1. That eloquently saved me having to write chapter and verse to explain to Interested why I am a lowly 25 hour student, who considers himself very far from privileged, who will find a way through to an ATPL whatever it takes, and who believes this scheme to be the most honest attempt at giving newly qualified ATPLs a leg-up he has yet encountered.
I understand why the goalposts have been set where they are. I fully appreciate why a current IR is so important to the application, but I strongly believe that keeping it current has got less to do with Interested’s definition of privilege, and a lot more to do with bloody-minded determination.
I understand why the goalposts have been set where they are. I fully appreciate why a current IR is so important to the application, but I strongly believe that keeping it current has got less to do with Interested’s definition of privilege, and a lot more to do with bloody-minded determination.
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Ok, Skipper, I've read your post above and I am deeply moved by it. A wonderful post, which I have thoroughly enjoyed reading. Thank you for sharing those experiences with me.
You know, it probably won't surprise you to hear me say that I have heard many similar tales, each a testament to the 'aviation spirit', for want of a better phrase. Nonetheless, I would really ... really ... appreciate it if you took a moment to ponder just one moment in your own story and ask yourself if things may have turned out less happily for you in slightly different circumstance.
What if your partner had not been there for you and had not been so supportive?
The point I make is that her support may well have made the difference between your success and your failure. There may be many youngsters out here without that 'privilege'. Why not give them the chance you've had? If they have achieved their frozen ATPL (and I think an IR was an ATPL pre-requisite), why not allow those with recent IR currency a crack at your scheme. After all, Hamrah (and/or some of his colleagues) can surely exercise their skills to pick the worthy, irrespective of currency.
Again, thanks for the above post. Wonderfully well written. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
P.S. Sorry for the delay, but I had trouble getting back to the site. All's well now.
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: interested ]</p>
You know, it probably won't surprise you to hear me say that I have heard many similar tales, each a testament to the 'aviation spirit', for want of a better phrase. Nonetheless, I would really ... really ... appreciate it if you took a moment to ponder just one moment in your own story and ask yourself if things may have turned out less happily for you in slightly different circumstance.
What if your partner had not been there for you and had not been so supportive?
The point I make is that her support may well have made the difference between your success and your failure. There may be many youngsters out here without that 'privilege'. Why not give them the chance you've had? If they have achieved their frozen ATPL (and I think an IR was an ATPL pre-requisite), why not allow those with recent IR currency a crack at your scheme. After all, Hamrah (and/or some of his colleagues) can surely exercise their skills to pick the worthy, irrespective of currency.
Again, thanks for the above post. Wonderfully well written. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
P.S. Sorry for the delay, but I had trouble getting back to the site. All's well now.
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: interested ]</p>
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[quote] Nothing beats that first flight of the day. It is damp and miserable outside. Low overcast and drizzle. You have completed the paperwork and the check and you are lined up on the runway, the end barely visible through the mist and water droplets on the windscreen. You are cleared for take off, push the thrust levers forward and start your next flight. As soon as you are airborne you are enveloped in the low cloud and you are working very hard to follow your procedure and complete your checks. After a few minutes you break through the top of the clouds into glorious sunshine and the world appears to be a different place. To cap it off you know there's a coffee on the way and you are earning a living from all the enjoyment and satisfaction you get from doing your job and your hobby in a professional and safe manner. <hr></blockquote>
I will make it,I will make it, I will make it, I will make it!!!
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Rowley ]</p>
I will make it,I will make it, I will make it, I will make it!!!
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Rowley ]</p>
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
interested why on earth do you think I would ban you for your views? Surely I am a benevolent despot? Seriously though, I have enjoyed the level of discussion and as you say we are going around in circles. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
Thank you for your compliment on my feeble attempts to express my views, from whom I think is a writer by profession. You are a pilot and derive the same enjoyment from having achieved that skill whether you do it as a hobby or as a living and therefore you are of course entitled to put your point of view across on these forums. The fact that we are debating it shows you that we have been considering it.
Let me put it this way, if someone truly believes that they have what it takes to be considered for the PPRuNe Career Development Scheme they will get their application in. Part of the process involves being able to understand how to get there. If someone has the licence with the ink still fresh or a slightly faded one with a lapsed IR it will still not be enough. We are looking for the 'total' person. Privileged or underprivileged, it doesn't matter. You have to stand out from the crowd. Before you even get near the simulator you will have to have made an impression on us. We are offering five places and there are probably at least 500 people here in the UK alone who meet the minimum requirements we have set out, never mind all those other wannabes in a similar position in the EEC and they are applying too.
Of course I take time out to ponder what if my own circumstances had been different. It probably would only have taken the flap of a butterfly’s wing on the other side of the world to change the outcome for me but I had to play it as the cards fell and so do everyone else. We are human beings and we are at the top of our evolutionary tree because of our resourcefulness. Whatever ones beliefs there is a certain amount we can do to put or keep ourselves in a position to give us the advantage over someone else. The fatalistic approach is only a part of the equation. If I had not been with that partner at that time I may well not have been here to type this reply to post. Then again there may not have been a PPRuNe Career Development Scheme to argue the point on. There may not have been a PPRuNe! Who knows? Please don't think that we haven't pondered over the fate of some pilots who fall just short of our requirements.
Your philanthropy in loaning your aircraft to those in your acquaintance to help in keeping their costs down is commendable but surely you have to realise that the minimum requirements we have put in place are there to define the standard we require. If you were to publicise who you were I have no doubt that you may be inundated with requests to borrow your aircraft. We here at PPRuNe and the pilot management at Astraeus have all been through the difficult process of getting that first job as a pilot. Most of us are approachable and you will find us on here.
Finally, you stated "After all, Hamrah (and/or some of his colleagues) can surely exercise their skills to pick the worthy, irrespective of currency.". I think you will find it is his many years of experience conducting precisely this kind of assessment that has driven us to set that particular requirement. The main point is that it is not just the fact that you have passed the IR test but that you have one way or another maintained some sort of proficiency with those skills. I will repeat Hamrah's statement here so that we can all take the time to understand it: [quote]If, during the early phases of selection you could demonstrate that you have an IR, that you have been actively using the IR, and that you have booked a renewal, then it would be worth your time applying. However, if you have not been actively flying in Instrument conditions, the sim assessment would be a very difficult challenge indeed.<hr></blockquote> There are only a limited number of sim assessment places and as I mentioned earlier you have a lot to do to impress us before you are even considered to be in a position to prove your flying skills.
As an aside, one way to keep your instrument skills from getting rusty and to get a feel for what is involved in handling a jet why don't some of you arrange with Raw Data to use the Trident sim? I am not sure if he still runs the sim days but from what I can remember an hour in it was less than the cost of a night out on the town. Surely that doesn't keep the underprivileged out of the loop?
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]</p>
Thank you for your compliment on my feeble attempts to express my views, from whom I think is a writer by profession. You are a pilot and derive the same enjoyment from having achieved that skill whether you do it as a hobby or as a living and therefore you are of course entitled to put your point of view across on these forums. The fact that we are debating it shows you that we have been considering it.
Let me put it this way, if someone truly believes that they have what it takes to be considered for the PPRuNe Career Development Scheme they will get their application in. Part of the process involves being able to understand how to get there. If someone has the licence with the ink still fresh or a slightly faded one with a lapsed IR it will still not be enough. We are looking for the 'total' person. Privileged or underprivileged, it doesn't matter. You have to stand out from the crowd. Before you even get near the simulator you will have to have made an impression on us. We are offering five places and there are probably at least 500 people here in the UK alone who meet the minimum requirements we have set out, never mind all those other wannabes in a similar position in the EEC and they are applying too.
Of course I take time out to ponder what if my own circumstances had been different. It probably would only have taken the flap of a butterfly’s wing on the other side of the world to change the outcome for me but I had to play it as the cards fell and so do everyone else. We are human beings and we are at the top of our evolutionary tree because of our resourcefulness. Whatever ones beliefs there is a certain amount we can do to put or keep ourselves in a position to give us the advantage over someone else. The fatalistic approach is only a part of the equation. If I had not been with that partner at that time I may well not have been here to type this reply to post. Then again there may not have been a PPRuNe Career Development Scheme to argue the point on. There may not have been a PPRuNe! Who knows? Please don't think that we haven't pondered over the fate of some pilots who fall just short of our requirements.
Your philanthropy in loaning your aircraft to those in your acquaintance to help in keeping their costs down is commendable but surely you have to realise that the minimum requirements we have put in place are there to define the standard we require. If you were to publicise who you were I have no doubt that you may be inundated with requests to borrow your aircraft. We here at PPRuNe and the pilot management at Astraeus have all been through the difficult process of getting that first job as a pilot. Most of us are approachable and you will find us on here.
Finally, you stated "After all, Hamrah (and/or some of his colleagues) can surely exercise their skills to pick the worthy, irrespective of currency.". I think you will find it is his many years of experience conducting precisely this kind of assessment that has driven us to set that particular requirement. The main point is that it is not just the fact that you have passed the IR test but that you have one way or another maintained some sort of proficiency with those skills. I will repeat Hamrah's statement here so that we can all take the time to understand it: [quote]If, during the early phases of selection you could demonstrate that you have an IR, that you have been actively using the IR, and that you have booked a renewal, then it would be worth your time applying. However, if you have not been actively flying in Instrument conditions, the sim assessment would be a very difficult challenge indeed.<hr></blockquote> There are only a limited number of sim assessment places and as I mentioned earlier you have a lot to do to impress us before you are even considered to be in a position to prove your flying skills.
As an aside, one way to keep your instrument skills from getting rusty and to get a feel for what is involved in handling a jet why don't some of you arrange with Raw Data to use the Trident sim? I am not sure if he still runs the sim days but from what I can remember an hour in it was less than the cost of a night out on the town. Surely that doesn't keep the underprivileged out of the loop?
[ 29 January 2002: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]</p>
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A little off thread,but what does it take to keep "the average" pilot current with his or her IR.How many hours a month.All on aircraft or is a Sim just as good?. .DWW
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Capt Pprune,
Thanks for your excelent post! An authentic inspiration for all of us! You made my day!
After all, all this argument was worth it!
Thanks to Ryanair Scam!!! Just kiding <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Thanks for your excelent post! An authentic inspiration for all of us! You made my day!
After all, all this argument was worth it!
Thanks to Ryanair Scam!!! Just kiding <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Let's get back on track.Start another thread about I.R currency if you want.
What about this scam that MoL has dreamt up.Anyone had a reply after parting with fifty squids or even a sim' call up?
What about this scam that MoL has dreamt up.Anyone had a reply after parting with fifty squids or even a sim' call up?
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A good idea but let's not just theorize.
Start from the unpleasant reality of what really happened to someone during an assessment - go to this thread with your views.
<a href="http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=009050" target="_blank">http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=009050</A>
Sincere thanks to pjdj for the courage and good grace to allow others to learn from what happened to him.
Rob Lloyd
Start from the unpleasant reality of what really happened to someone during an assessment - go to this thread with your views.
<a href="http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=009050" target="_blank">http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=009050</A>
Sincere thanks to pjdj for the courage and good grace to allow others to learn from what happened to him.
Rob Lloyd
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A fantastic series of posts.
The point that I will make is that privilege can be earned.
I am paying for my own training, if this makes me privileged then so what? Like many others, I have worked extremely hard to achieve my current lifestyle, yes I’ve been lucky at times but I’ve also taken advantage of opportunities as they have presented themselves.
It doesn’t take money to work hard at school, attend university, attain excellent grades etc. It also doesn’t take money to make life-changing decisions at a later stage after recognizing earlier mistakes. It may take a little luck to get the breaks, but (and it’s an old truism) the harder I work the luckier I get. The ones who moan about not being able to achieve success have usually, in my experience, failed to get off their backsides to make their own luck.
There will always be those who have had it easier, for numerous reasons, but as you can’t change that why worry about it?
Best regards
The point that I will make is that privilege can be earned.
I am paying for my own training, if this makes me privileged then so what? Like many others, I have worked extremely hard to achieve my current lifestyle, yes I’ve been lucky at times but I’ve also taken advantage of opportunities as they have presented themselves.
It doesn’t take money to work hard at school, attend university, attain excellent grades etc. It also doesn’t take money to make life-changing decisions at a later stage after recognizing earlier mistakes. It may take a little luck to get the breaks, but (and it’s an old truism) the harder I work the luckier I get. The ones who moan about not being able to achieve success have usually, in my experience, failed to get off their backsides to make their own luck.
There will always be those who have had it easier, for numerous reasons, but as you can’t change that why worry about it?
Best regards
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This is for 'Interested' - a précis of the life and times of a another 'spoilt little rich kid' - NOT - who became an airline pilot.
My mother is from a very poor Irish family, e.g. my maternal Grandfather was a farm labourer, and Grandmother was fully occupied bringing up all of their 11 ( yes, eleven ! ) children - so to say that they were poor would be to understate it, e.g. as a child even I recall no running water, and an outside bog.. .My father grew up in an orphanage - so no family.
So my parents didn't exactly have the best start in life (certainly not from a financial standpoint) indeed they've had to struggle all their lives just to get-by because of it, and accordingly (out of necessity) my brother, sister, and I, were all brought up to have a strong work ethic, to be honest & decent people, and to always to help those who were more needy than yourself, i.e. to lend the helping hand ( hence why I love PPRuNe - it allows me to pay back some of my good fortune ).
I didn't exactly have the best education experience ( we were always the 'poor kids' in a school within a very 'well-to-do' neighbourhood - which probably explains a lot about how my sister, brother, and I turned out ) and so when I left school my very first job was in a cardboard-box factory ( seriously ! i.e. I used to have to put the cardboard through the roller & cutter machines ), whilst at night I went to night-school to better myself - but at least I was able to bring some extra money in to the house.
I was lucky and managed to earn and save enough to then allow myself to go to Technical College ( plus the fact that I had to continue to work evenings, weekends, and holidays - in pubs, factories, farms, building sites, trawlers, diving in crap filled harbours in winter, i.e. you name it and I did it, to make ends meet ).. .I did well at college, indeed managing to get good enough grades to go to university - I was the first person in all of my family tree to have ever made it that far in education - but whilst there I still had to work all the hours there were to feed and cloth myself - lectures all day, work all evening, study during the early hours of the morning - but I did it !
Now I'd always wanted to be an airline pilot - indeed one of my earliest childhood memories are of visiting one of my Aunties who then lived in Hounslow ( near Heathrow ) and when ever we went to visit I would insist on being taken to see the aeroplanes from the roof of one of the airport car parks - Tridents, VC10's, 707's DC8's etc (ah nostalgia) - and that was as close as I ever came to an aeroplane until my early 20's when I'd saved enough to have a flight in one - and from which point I was 100% hooked !!!
During the subsequent years ( whilst fortunately now working in the IT/Systems business ) I managed to pay for and do my PPL, as well as build hours, do the CPL written exams ( who else remembers penalty marking ? ) , the CAA GFT and IR.. .It was going quite well - given that it was all a huge risk - but I'd timed it all completely wrong ( I did say that it was a risk - but that's aviation ) by just getting my license at finish of the '91 Gulf War - need I say more ?
Over the next 6 years I stuck with it as best I could, tried to keep current (spent a small fortune doing so), did the ATPL exams, did a CRM/LOFT course, Perf'A, etc... but you name it and it went wrong........ but still I stuck at it.
Ultimately, and whilst the effort to get there nearly destroyed me, I finally got my break ( with Go, thanks to Hamrah ) at the age of 38 !
For the record, in my whole life I have had NO financial assistance by way of gift or grant, and a result of which is that I still live in very modest circumstances because of it
Though let me clear, I would not change any of it. Along the way I've learnt loads, eaten humble pie in huge amounts, been to hell and back, travelled and worked all over the world, met some fabulous people, and had a blast too - I could write a book, I really could ! ....... and it's not over yet !
But, 'Yes', the ride has often been a roller-coaster of emotion with many a moment of seemingly being so close, but yet so far...... but hard work, perseverance, and luck paid off in the end.
And Danny is right - nothing (yes, NOTHING) beats the rush you get when blasting out the top of the solid overcast into clear blue sky and bright sunshine at +400Kts, plus the knowledge that you're now - finally - getting paid to do this !
Ps. Perhaps the biggest joke of it all is that, when I was a young lad at primary school, my then headmaster one day pulled me aside and said "......you'll never amount to anything, because boys from families like yours never do !" - to which my reply now is: Hahahahahahaahaha - coz I've had the last laugh - or there again perhaps he did, e.g. maybe he saw something in me and knew how to ignite my fire ?!
My mother is from a very poor Irish family, e.g. my maternal Grandfather was a farm labourer, and Grandmother was fully occupied bringing up all of their 11 ( yes, eleven ! ) children - so to say that they were poor would be to understate it, e.g. as a child even I recall no running water, and an outside bog.. .My father grew up in an orphanage - so no family.
So my parents didn't exactly have the best start in life (certainly not from a financial standpoint) indeed they've had to struggle all their lives just to get-by because of it, and accordingly (out of necessity) my brother, sister, and I, were all brought up to have a strong work ethic, to be honest & decent people, and to always to help those who were more needy than yourself, i.e. to lend the helping hand ( hence why I love PPRuNe - it allows me to pay back some of my good fortune ).
I didn't exactly have the best education experience ( we were always the 'poor kids' in a school within a very 'well-to-do' neighbourhood - which probably explains a lot about how my sister, brother, and I turned out ) and so when I left school my very first job was in a cardboard-box factory ( seriously ! i.e. I used to have to put the cardboard through the roller & cutter machines ), whilst at night I went to night-school to better myself - but at least I was able to bring some extra money in to the house.
I was lucky and managed to earn and save enough to then allow myself to go to Technical College ( plus the fact that I had to continue to work evenings, weekends, and holidays - in pubs, factories, farms, building sites, trawlers, diving in crap filled harbours in winter, i.e. you name it and I did it, to make ends meet ).. .I did well at college, indeed managing to get good enough grades to go to university - I was the first person in all of my family tree to have ever made it that far in education - but whilst there I still had to work all the hours there were to feed and cloth myself - lectures all day, work all evening, study during the early hours of the morning - but I did it !
Now I'd always wanted to be an airline pilot - indeed one of my earliest childhood memories are of visiting one of my Aunties who then lived in Hounslow ( near Heathrow ) and when ever we went to visit I would insist on being taken to see the aeroplanes from the roof of one of the airport car parks - Tridents, VC10's, 707's DC8's etc (ah nostalgia) - and that was as close as I ever came to an aeroplane until my early 20's when I'd saved enough to have a flight in one - and from which point I was 100% hooked !!!
During the subsequent years ( whilst fortunately now working in the IT/Systems business ) I managed to pay for and do my PPL, as well as build hours, do the CPL written exams ( who else remembers penalty marking ? ) , the CAA GFT and IR.. .It was going quite well - given that it was all a huge risk - but I'd timed it all completely wrong ( I did say that it was a risk - but that's aviation ) by just getting my license at finish of the '91 Gulf War - need I say more ?
Over the next 6 years I stuck with it as best I could, tried to keep current (spent a small fortune doing so), did the ATPL exams, did a CRM/LOFT course, Perf'A, etc... but you name it and it went wrong........ but still I stuck at it.
Ultimately, and whilst the effort to get there nearly destroyed me, I finally got my break ( with Go, thanks to Hamrah ) at the age of 38 !
For the record, in my whole life I have had NO financial assistance by way of gift or grant, and a result of which is that I still live in very modest circumstances because of it
Though let me clear, I would not change any of it. Along the way I've learnt loads, eaten humble pie in huge amounts, been to hell and back, travelled and worked all over the world, met some fabulous people, and had a blast too - I could write a book, I really could ! ....... and it's not over yet !
But, 'Yes', the ride has often been a roller-coaster of emotion with many a moment of seemingly being so close, but yet so far...... but hard work, perseverance, and luck paid off in the end.
And Danny is right - nothing (yes, NOTHING) beats the rush you get when blasting out the top of the solid overcast into clear blue sky and bright sunshine at +400Kts, plus the knowledge that you're now - finally - getting paid to do this !
Ps. Perhaps the biggest joke of it all is that, when I was a young lad at primary school, my then headmaster one day pulled me aside and said "......you'll never amount to anything, because boys from families like yours never do !" - to which my reply now is: Hahahahahahaahaha - coz I've had the last laugh - or there again perhaps he did, e.g. maybe he saw something in me and knew how to ignite my fire ?!
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CrashDive,
Somehow this is the sort of posts I really enjoy reading in this board. This is the sort of posts that really help us all in fulfilling this and any other ambitions that are difficult to achieve. This makes me believe that however difficult it is to achieve something it is really up to us to make it happen.
So to Crashdive, Capt Pprune and many others (from memory I remember a few such as Pilot Pete, Scroggs, WWW, …) that told us their story, my sincere thanks.
Somehow this is the sort of posts I really enjoy reading in this board. This is the sort of posts that really help us all in fulfilling this and any other ambitions that are difficult to achieve. This makes me believe that however difficult it is to achieve something it is really up to us to make it happen.
So to Crashdive, Capt Pprune and many others (from memory I remember a few such as Pilot Pete, Scroggs, WWW, …) that told us their story, my sincere thanks.
