Any REAL difference between ME CPL or SE CPL
Educated Hillbilly
A combined CPL/ME is cheaper than doing a SE CPL and MEP providing you pass first time in not too much over minimum hours. You are saving an examiners fee (although an MEP fee is only 150 or so, not a full CAA charge of 600+).
A combined CPL/ME course is infact 28 hours training, where as a SE CPL + an MEP will be a minimum of 25 + 7 hours (32 hours).
A combined CPL/ME course is infact 28 hours training, where as a SE CPL + an MEP will be a minimum of 25 + 7 hours (32 hours).
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"portsharbourflyer" - Excuse me but how can you get that CPL/ME is cheaper than SE CPL & MEP ?????
Just the hour costs for each CPL SE and CPL ME would be for SE £6500 and for MEP £9800. Both would need to pay their CAA fees, landing fees etc, so that would not be a difference on either, only the £150 extra for ME to add to the CPL SE.
Will defiantly not be cheaper to do your CPL in a ME!!
Just the hour costs for each CPL SE and CPL ME would be for SE £6500 and for MEP £9800. Both would need to pay their CAA fees, landing fees etc, so that would not be a difference on either, only the £150 extra for ME to add to the CPL SE.
Will defiantly not be cheaper to do your CPL in a ME!!
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Rang today and they can put it on the CPL no problem. The examiner was obviously wrong, have to say it didnt help him saying that before we went and did the test.
For what its worth I had 10 hours off the course since I had an IR. If you get the CPL first then the IR is 50 hours as supposed to 55.
Might as well add, don't budget to do a 15 hour course on the CPL if you have the IR. You are exempt from the 10 hours instrument time but I'm sure instructors like to throw in some nav/upper air work/emergencies in this time. You might need more than 15 hours to be comfortable for the test. I did.
For what its worth I had 10 hours off the course since I had an IR. If you get the CPL first then the IR is 50 hours as supposed to 55.
Might as well add, don't budget to do a 15 hour course on the CPL if you have the IR. You are exempt from the 10 hours instrument time but I'm sure instructors like to throw in some nav/upper air work/emergencies in this time. You might need more than 15 hours to be comfortable for the test. I did.
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The people I came across who did the IR first found it tough going back to CPL VFR after spending so much time looking inside on the IR. CPL then IR seems more logical to me.
I opted to do my CPL in a ME aircraft. Cost me more but I found the IR MUCH easier and very enjoyable as I had more capacity available to focus on the IR aspect rather than learning to fly the aircraft.
Whatever you choose I wish you all the best. Enjoy it! Flying everyday is much more fun than the endless job hunting that will follow shortly after!
Cheers
2W2R
I opted to do my CPL in a ME aircraft. Cost me more but I found the IR MUCH easier and very enjoyable as I had more capacity available to focus on the IR aspect rather than learning to fly the aircraft.
Whatever you choose I wish you all the best. Enjoy it! Flying everyday is much more fun than the endless job hunting that will follow shortly after!
Cheers
2W2R
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MEIR saving first maybe more than marginal if you do it in cheaper aircraft. I did mine in a Tecnam P2006T here in Poland. Superb aircraft, brand new(it was 2 month old at the time I did it in July) with Garmin suite and almost as cheap as a good single.
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Dont see the point in SE/IR if your wanting a commercial airline job you wont be eligible so went the ME/IR route , i also have no time constraint as i have about 34 months on my exams to go 
, i suppose its cost whichever way you look at it if you need it one day , second the Bonus quote , they certainly seem a good crowd.
, i suppose its cost whichever way you look at it if you need it one day , second the Bonus quote , they certainly seem a good crowd.
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Downwind24 -
SEIR fulfills the requirement for the ATPL theory. That is half the point. You will sleep the sleep of the just knowing that is done and that you can maintain it.
The other half is to look at the market and judge whether or not you are likely as a low hour entrant to see a commercial job posting let alone an offer in the next two years minimum!
I still feel you are better off maintaining a SEIR until the market picks up.
I am trying to maintain a very expensive ME habit - should've taken up crack cocaine...
SEIR fulfills the requirement for the ATPL theory. That is half the point. You will sleep the sleep of the just knowing that is done and that you can maintain it.
The other half is to look at the market and judge whether or not you are likely as a low hour entrant to see a commercial job posting let alone an offer in the next two years minimum!
I still feel you are better off maintaining a SEIR until the market picks up.
I am trying to maintain a very expensive ME habit - should've taken up crack cocaine...
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Yeah , i have a friend who is determined that he will have a job before the THIRD renewal this July so i hear you with the cost. At least if the job/opportunity comes along you will be ready , that potentially could put you ahead of some with an SEP/IR. I always try to be positive 
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First renewal is in the sim.
Also to maintain currency, book few sim sessions, around £100 an hour with IR instructor + this will get your currency tested regularly.
Also to maintain currency, book few sim sessions, around £100 an hour with IR instructor + this will get your currency tested regularly.
, I wish you all the best!
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SE/IR
Hi all,
Following on with the SE/IR line.
What is the consensus from potential employers and pilots who have completed a SE/IR then done a MEP conversion.
Ive been told you have to redo the asymmetric work and approaches only lasting possibly an hour. Although its another test you would have already got the big initial test out the way in the single so the second time round wont be that much of a worry.
Do you think the costs could be significantly reduced if you did everything in a single and only when you see the right time complete the 6 hours and do a MEP conversion and 1 hour IR asymetric test?
Thoughts?
Following on with the SE/IR line.
What is the consensus from potential employers and pilots who have completed a SE/IR then done a MEP conversion.
Ive been told you have to redo the asymmetric work and approaches only lasting possibly an hour. Although its another test you would have already got the big initial test out the way in the single so the second time round wont be that much of a worry.
Do you think the costs could be significantly reduced if you did everything in a single and only when you see the right time complete the 6 hours and do a MEP conversion and 1 hour IR asymetric test?
Thoughts?
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Aston240 - Your SE/IR conversion to ME/IR would probably be a full IR test. I am not 100% sure, but I can't see how you would have a reduced test on the ME/IR. It would not just be adding a visual ME, to do the ME/IR you must already have a ME rating, you would probably have to do a full ME/IR skills test, not just assymetric flight.
You would have to do the departures, maybe you would avoid airways, but that would probably be the only bit, you would have general handling bit, assymetric tracking + hold and approach.
Not sure if you would save much money total, as the assymetric part is probably the hardest part of the IR test.
You would have to do the departures, maybe you would avoid airways, but that would probably be the only bit, you would have general handling bit, assymetric tracking + hold and approach.
Not sure if you would save much money total, as the assymetric part is probably the hardest part of the IR test.
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Aston240 - you will have to do the full test, the regulation is as follows:
LASORS 2008, LAS E1.2, page E3
For my money, I would rather have done this. I would keep my SEIR currency by flying an old jalopy with IR fit at £80 per hour and practice my arse off; when it comes to asymmetric stuff I would cross that hurdle as and when; the hardest part of the IR test is the instrument stuff - equally hard whether ME or SE.
When you have the MEIR you will, hopefully have a job that allows you to practice 'on the job' - ie doing it for real.
SE IR(A) to ME IR(A)*
a. 5 hours instrument time under instruction in ME
aeroplanes, which may include (b);
b. 3 hours in FNPT II or Flight Simulator if approved by
CAA;
c. Pass a ME IR(A) Skill Test with a UK CAA Staff
Flight Examiner.
* The holder of a SE IR(A) wishing to upgrade to ME IR(A)
shall either hold a multi-engine type/class rating, or have
at least completed an approved course of training for the
ME class rating.
a. 5 hours instrument time under instruction in ME
aeroplanes, which may include (b);
b. 3 hours in FNPT II or Flight Simulator if approved by
CAA;
c. Pass a ME IR(A) Skill Test with a UK CAA Staff
Flight Examiner.
* The holder of a SE IR(A) wishing to upgrade to ME IR(A)
shall either hold a multi-engine type/class rating, or have
at least completed an approved course of training for the
ME class rating.
For my money, I would rather have done this. I would keep my SEIR currency by flying an old jalopy with IR fit at £80 per hour and practice my arse off; when it comes to asymmetric stuff I would cross that hurdle as and when; the hardest part of the IR test is the instrument stuff - equally hard whether ME or SE.
When you have the MEIR you will, hopefully have a job that allows you to practice 'on the job' - ie doing it for real.
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Just to go back to the original question for a moment.
In my experience it would be better to do the CPL on a single first.
SE CPL 25hrs min
ME CPL 28hrs min
You have to do 6hrs training for the MEP (circuits, asymmetric, Vmca) within that 28hrs and i think it's an additional 4hrs after that to make 10hrs on a complex aircraft for the ME CPL.
Problem occurs when things don't go to plan e.g weather and you lose continuity. The MEP test is done as part of the CPL test so if you require some flight time to keep continuity your paying for the twin aircraft + an instructor to go with you because you've not got your MEP rating yet, in turn costs start adding up considerably and you still book it as P/UT.
With the SE CPL you do 15hrs in the single eg a PA28 then after that 10hrs in a complex single eg an Arrow in which you can self hire and book as P1. Additional benefits are less to do on your test although you have to do a PLF instead.
Take the MEP course straight after the CPL course separately and you've got both done with the same outcome.
I agree with a previous statement that the more twin hours you've got, the easier you will get on with the ME/IR. It would be better if you can gain the hours P1 self hire and without the pressure of having to pass a ME/CPL test at the same time.
This time of year you might struggle with continuity which is a big thing so try to help yourself out as much as you can and also try to keep your costs down.
Good luck
In my experience it would be better to do the CPL on a single first.
SE CPL 25hrs min
ME CPL 28hrs min
You have to do 6hrs training for the MEP (circuits, asymmetric, Vmca) within that 28hrs and i think it's an additional 4hrs after that to make 10hrs on a complex aircraft for the ME CPL.
Problem occurs when things don't go to plan e.g weather and you lose continuity. The MEP test is done as part of the CPL test so if you require some flight time to keep continuity your paying for the twin aircraft + an instructor to go with you because you've not got your MEP rating yet, in turn costs start adding up considerably and you still book it as P/UT.
With the SE CPL you do 15hrs in the single eg a PA28 then after that 10hrs in a complex single eg an Arrow in which you can self hire and book as P1. Additional benefits are less to do on your test although you have to do a PLF instead.
Take the MEP course straight after the CPL course separately and you've got both done with the same outcome.
I agree with a previous statement that the more twin hours you've got, the easier you will get on with the ME/IR. It would be better if you can gain the hours P1 self hire and without the pressure of having to pass a ME/CPL test at the same time.
This time of year you might struggle with continuity which is a big thing so try to help yourself out as much as you can and also try to keep your costs down.
Good luck
Last edited by Intrepidaviator; 18th Nov 2010 at 21:08.
Doing a SE/IR is cheaper and I beleive you could start it earlier as you only need 50 hours PIC to start the IT but 70 for the ME rating. From my research you do also have a reduce test when you do the ME/IR if you have an SE/IR as there is no enroute section. The other benefit is that your 3 years deadline to do the IR will be met by the SE/IR but if you have just done the exams that won't be a concern.
The problem I see is that when you apply for jobs you will have to say you have an SE/IR. Even if you are fully intending to convert once the market picks up I fail to see how you can say you meet the requirements most airlines ask for and your CV may well end up going straight in the bin. There will be many applicants for each job with the ME/IR in the bag already.
As for doing the CPL & IR at the same school, there are airlines that like this as it shows continuity which helps the potential employer determine your ability to pass the type rating etc. I would say it will become less & less important though as the ability to pay for your TR and therefore take that risk on yourself seems to be the way forward.
I would also suggest that all this talk of what school is best should be taken with a big pinch of salt. Many people only have experience of one school. Also from my research you can go to the best school in the world but if you don't maintain that skill afterwards you will lose it. Someone that did the IR the cheapest route possible and then after the test flies with some experienced pilots, gains confidence and regularly flies themselves IR SE or ME will be a better IR pilot than someone that paid a fortune to go to the best school possible, but doesnt do any other instrument flying until the revalidation is due.
The problem I see is that when you apply for jobs you will have to say you have an SE/IR. Even if you are fully intending to convert once the market picks up I fail to see how you can say you meet the requirements most airlines ask for and your CV may well end up going straight in the bin. There will be many applicants for each job with the ME/IR in the bag already.
As for doing the CPL & IR at the same school, there are airlines that like this as it shows continuity which helps the potential employer determine your ability to pass the type rating etc. I would say it will become less & less important though as the ability to pay for your TR and therefore take that risk on yourself seems to be the way forward.
I would also suggest that all this talk of what school is best should be taken with a big pinch of salt. Many people only have experience of one school. Also from my research you can go to the best school in the world but if you don't maintain that skill afterwards you will lose it. Someone that did the IR the cheapest route possible and then after the test flies with some experienced pilots, gains confidence and regularly flies themselves IR SE or ME will be a better IR pilot than someone that paid a fortune to go to the best school possible, but doesnt do any other instrument flying until the revalidation is due.
Hi
I use to work at the CAA issuing licences, and most of what is said on this thread is correct.
Not sure where some people are getting 6.3 or 7 hours for a MEP course from however.
Anyone want some more advice, feel free to PM me, and I'll give you my number and a good time to call (free of charge )
It's been two years since I was there, but still remember all that nonsense.
For the record after obtaining my JAR PPL I did a FAA IR on a single. I did this because it counted towards my 150 hour building (I thought those hours were more valuable then simply burning holes in the sky). It knocks off 10 hours of the 25 hour CPL course, and reduces the IR course to a minimum of 15 hours. The FAA IR is cheaper then the hours you saved on the conversions so in my opinion well worth doing- although don't expect to do the conversions in minimum hours. I did CPL is 19, and IR in 30.
All the best
VJW
I use to work at the CAA issuing licences, and most of what is said on this thread is correct.
Not sure where some people are getting 6.3 or 7 hours for a MEP course from however.
Anyone want some more advice, feel free to PM me, and I'll give you my number and a good time to call (free of charge
)It's been two years since I was there, but still remember all that nonsense.
For the record after obtaining my JAR PPL I did a FAA IR on a single. I did this because it counted towards my 150 hour building (I thought those hours were more valuable then simply burning holes in the sky). It knocks off 10 hours of the 25 hour CPL course, and reduces the IR course to a minimum of 15 hours. The FAA IR is cheaper then the hours you saved on the conversions so in my opinion well worth doing- although don't expect to do the conversions in minimum hours. I did CPL is 19, and IR in 30.
All the best
VJW
