Cheapest route to fATPL...

[Okavango]

Some mates were debating the lowest hour route possible for training. All being well (min hours courses), is this theoretically the lowest hour route to a fATPL?

PPL 45hrs (45hrs cumulative)
Hour Build 79.5hrs (124.5hrs cumulative), need >70hrs PIC, inc 50hrs XC to start MEIR.
MEIR 55hrs + 2 tests, total 3hrs (182.5hr cumulative)
CPL 15hrs + 2.5hrs test (200hrs cumulative)

CPL MEIR issued at 200hrs. My argument was that you wouldn't necessarily get any more P1 time in later training to be able to start the CPL (100hrs P1 required), so would need to have already got 20.5hrs P1 during PPL training. I appreciate the title is a bit misleading as it's not necessarily the cheapest as non of the 200 hours can be in a simulator. However, does this stack up and has anyone ever achieved it having done the entire MEIR in a/c?

[Okavango]

In fact, as I raised the issue - in terms of cheapest route (rather than lowest hours):

PPL + hour build to ~158hrs in a C152 or similar
MEIR 21hrs a/c + 35sim + 3hrs test (say)
CPL 15hrs + 2.5hrs test (say)

This 'should' be the cheapest route? 200hrs a/c and 35 simulator, so 235hrs all in, though allowing CPL issue. How does this stack up?

[potkettleblack]

Just an observation but it looks like you have based your calculations on getting through in minimum hours. I would say that is highly unlikely. In fact I will stick my neck out and say that there are any number of schools that use the CAA/ICAO minimums as just that. Any number of other factors such as the weather, airport/airway closures, navaid outages etc can all transpire against you and force you to go over hours. That is even before considering repeats during training or come test time.

From memory I think I went about 4 hours over on the CPL/IR. Gets expensive when your in a twin for both courses I can assure you. This was at a very reputable school down in Bournemouth and just about everyone that was there at the time went over. Some ended up effectively doing the course twice over but that is an aside and shouldn't be seen as the norm

[GearDownFlaps]

I to attended a very reputable school in the principality of bournemouth and i too went over by several hours as did pretty much everyone , thisis bound to happen unless you nail every learning point on the head every lesson without a hitch .
You also have to factor in possible test failure as the retest fee is just as silly as the initial plus hire of a/c , you can be the ace of the base but it only takes a wee brain fart on the day and youve partiallled there goes another 6-800 quid .
You dont need to factor two tests for the meir if you do the cpl in a twin as the cpl and mep test can be carried out together but this again is anotner cost issue .
At the end of your ppl you will have a minimum 10 hrs p1 not 20 unless you go significantly over , but this is likely to be dual time not p1

[moona]

A couple of idea's for Cheapest CPL/IR (not the best quality):

FAA/SA PPL
Non equity Share for hour building
CPL in Florida
ME/IR in spain
MCC in lower cost sim (not full motion)

[Okavango]

Thanks guys. Appreciate it's all hypothetical and completely understand the probability of more then min training hours required. However - in principal are those the optimum in theory? Regarding the last replies - what is important is that the IR needs to come before the CPL to shave 10hrs off the CPL training (15hrs rather than 25hrs required).

Moona's probably correct on the cheapest with the slight change:
FAA/SA PPL
Non-equity share for hour building
ME/IR in Spain
CPL in Florida
MCC in lower cost sim (not full motion)

What's the cost of a 15hr CPL in Florida?

Regarding the PPL hours - that was what I was trying to say - it being unlikely that many PPL's would get so much P1 time.

[GearDownFlaps]

IR before CPL is not that important 15 hrs is a MINIMUM it doesnt necessarily mean you will be ready at 15 hrs , you have to plan a contingency in here . The other thing to consider and I think im right , the IR is 50 hrs with a cpl 55 without and the ir must be done on a twin , so if you do secpl in fifteen hours you will then have an extra 5hrs to do in a twin for the ir and the twin is significantly more expensive . You also have to factor in the MEP at some stage , this does not form part of the 55 hour IR .
In short whatever you think hours or price wise this is gonna take ya add at least 10% minimum I would say , if you come out better off all the better , but do not budget to do everything in minimum time because on all likelihood you wont

[Okavango]

Thanks GDF - yes, as said above, appreciate minimums throughout are unlikely, just thought it was interesting to work out as so many permutations and thought one route might stand out. I think you're right on the 50ir 25cpl (against 55ir 15cpl), so really I guess it's the difference between 5hrs in a twin against 10hrs in a complex single. Splitting hairs on overall cost I guess so best to just go with whichever route is best for personal circumstances then. As a final point, it also seems to save ~£800 to do the cpl & me together rather than as separate modules due, to less hours (28 rather than 25 + 6) and one test fee.

[flyhighspeed300]

Okavango

It seem from looking at some of your other posts you are looking at the cheapest route to get a FROZEN ATPL Licence.

I have not come across any one yet with 200hrs on the dot to get a flying job. I could be wrong?

also if you fail to get a job within a year of the date of your IR-SPA-ME test you have to renew it again. Thats why over 90% of people do there IR last. Otherwise your wasting around 6 weeks or more, (weather permiting) off the time you have on the IR renewal date. - or + doing MCC or then JOC after finishing the course. That time can come around very quickly again to pay more money to renew the ratings again.

Also another thing: be careful not to do all your training at different places. Flybe, Easyjet, British Airways etc will not take you on if you did your training at several different places.

PPL Licence is fine to do anywhere
hour building is fun time for yourself.

however doing your ATPL ground school, CPL, Multi Engine and IR SPA ME all at different school could not get you at job becuase it shows your not willing to stay very long at one place at a time.

[Okavango]

Yeah, thanks - that's an understandable reason for doing the IR last. Really I was just figuring it all out for interest due to the number of possible routes. I understand the value of consistency in professional training (I don't count the ATPL's as necessarily within this as Bristol Ground School are obviously successful as an independent entity from any flight training organisations that also offer ATPL study).

Looking at Bristol Flying Centres prices, it's actually slightly cheaper (£1k) to do the IR before CPL (on weak assumption of min hours), though I think flyhighspeed's reasoning carries through, particularly in employers preference for currency and this is therefore probably false economy as it's a much more expensive rating to keep current (keeping in mind that the job market is unlikely to improve for some time).

Doing a MECPL first is therefore probably the best compromise for me, then I'll revalidate the ME rating during the IR training at a later date (and before my 3yrs ATPL credits are up!!). Hope this is of use to others researching in future.