What is wrong with everyone?
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What is wrong with everyone?
Hi.
I've been reading through these forums for the past few years on and off, and each time i do i tend to find myself thrown into a world of unbelievable resentment towards the airline industry, and, anyone about to enter into it.
You don't have to be a genius to work out that the industry has suffered, and is still suffering hard from the recession; and that odds of employment a couple of years ago sharply dropped to a figure which would make anyone who entered into flight training in 2007/2008 lose a fair deal of sleep over their future employment prospects.
You also don't have to be a genius to realise that £80,000 is alot of money to "invest" into ones future ,and I'm not denying it is a huge financial risk entering into training without a guaranteed job at the end. Obviously everyone is different; some people will have the money to put upfront, others will have to secure it to a property etc. but for god sake, have some respect for them. It seems to me that the people replying to alot of the threads are either people who wern't able to make it onto a course, or who cannot qualify for the amount needed to fund their training, and it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't make it due to their cynicism and general bad attitude towards the industry itself.
it's no secret that FTO's are out there to take your money, they're a business, but not everything they do is a conspiracy against you.
I suppose my overall point is fairly simple. If you want to become a pilot, then do it. work hard and take the risk. I weighed the options, and decided to go ahead with my training. If you don't want to become a pilot, then don't train, and certainly don't go around the 'wannabe' forums complaining about the costs and conspiracies of FTO to steal you of time and money, because it's a waste of everyones time.
Thanks.
I've been reading through these forums for the past few years on and off, and each time i do i tend to find myself thrown into a world of unbelievable resentment towards the airline industry, and, anyone about to enter into it.
You don't have to be a genius to work out that the industry has suffered, and is still suffering hard from the recession; and that odds of employment a couple of years ago sharply dropped to a figure which would make anyone who entered into flight training in 2007/2008 lose a fair deal of sleep over their future employment prospects.
You also don't have to be a genius to realise that £80,000 is alot of money to "invest" into ones future ,and I'm not denying it is a huge financial risk entering into training without a guaranteed job at the end. Obviously everyone is different; some people will have the money to put upfront, others will have to secure it to a property etc. but for god sake, have some respect for them. It seems to me that the people replying to alot of the threads are either people who wern't able to make it onto a course, or who cannot qualify for the amount needed to fund their training, and it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't make it due to their cynicism and general bad attitude towards the industry itself.
it's no secret that FTO's are out there to take your money, they're a business, but not everything they do is a conspiracy against you.
I suppose my overall point is fairly simple. If you want to become a pilot, then do it. work hard and take the risk. I weighed the options, and decided to go ahead with my training. If you don't want to become a pilot, then don't train, and certainly don't go around the 'wannabe' forums complaining about the costs and conspiracies of FTO to steal you of time and money, because it's a waste of everyones time.
Thanks.
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I have to agree to an extent, I've never wanted to do anything but fly and i've worked hard over the years to save the money to allow me to go and do my flight training which i had always thought would be an integrated course.
Although due to the wealth of experience and knowledge of some of the guys on here i decided there was no rush to spend 100k on a 14 month course based on the current climate but to go ahead at a slower pace with a modular course with the intention of being ATPL'd up in 2012 with no debt and maybe some tokens left over for a type rating if i'm lucky enough.
So i agree with you from the point of view that if you want it go for it but i'm greatful for the points of view and advice of so many on the site which helped me make my overall decision.
Although due to the wealth of experience and knowledge of some of the guys on here i decided there was no rush to spend 100k on a 14 month course based on the current climate but to go ahead at a slower pace with a modular course with the intention of being ATPL'd up in 2012 with no debt and maybe some tokens left over for a type rating if i'm lucky enough.
So i agree with you from the point of view that if you want it go for it but i'm greatful for the points of view and advice of so many on the site which helped me make my overall decision.
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I apply the philosophy that you treat other people how you would want treated yourself.
So as I want people to tell me if there is a high chance of me screwing up my life financally for years to come I will continue putting my view forward.
So as I want people to tell me if there is a high chance of me screwing up my life financally for years to come I will continue putting my view forward.
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most pilots will be out of the rat race after 2-3 years when they will discover they have to:
relocate for a job, look for a job for 1-2 years, pay to work, build time, give up 9-5 jobs, no family life, pay more money for training, rating, pay for selection tests, pay more and more to stay current, have a bad life, wake up at 3 am, fly at night, fly in the cold,...
did you know that 50% of privat pilot give up flying after 4-5 years!
how many give up with a CPL?
relocate for a job, look for a job for 1-2 years, pay to work, build time, give up 9-5 jobs, no family life, pay more money for training, rating, pay for selection tests, pay more and more to stay current, have a bad life, wake up at 3 am, fly at night, fly in the cold,...
did you know that 50% of privat pilot give up flying after 4-5 years!
how many give up with a CPL?
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Totally agree, with mad_jock
WWW described wannabe's recently as a Wannabe Zombie Army. Its very fitting. A few of us on here post with experience, I myself started training in 2000 and when 9/11 collapsed the industry in 2001, I will never forget having to be honest and putting the 'brakes on' both my enthusiasm and my chosen future and returning to a day job that 18 months previous, had decided I was ready to move on from!
In 2010, I have been made redundant from a large UK airline - along with 120 other B757/B767 and B737 rated pilots, most of us with all types. I've been very lucky, I found employment very quickly and as a wake up to wannabes, i'm joining a UK airline that already has a hold pool of pilots that have passed the selection process, but who are inexperienced and untype-rated! They are all still in the hold-pool!
I wouldn't want to step on anyones dream but realism has to play a huge part, the training world in itself is a mine field and on these pages you have access to people such as myself and mad_jock who are doing the job on a daily basis and are more aware than the average wannabe and flight training organisation's commercial department what the scoop is. The fact is Scoot43, at the moment, you will hear the stark reality of what is going on and wannabe's don't like it!
I've proved it - there is no place in the present industry for zero experienced frozen ATPL holders (unless you want to pay even more...), but the Wannabe Zombie Army keep marching on...
JB
WWW described wannabe's recently as a Wannabe Zombie Army. Its very fitting. A few of us on here post with experience, I myself started training in 2000 and when 9/11 collapsed the industry in 2001, I will never forget having to be honest and putting the 'brakes on' both my enthusiasm and my chosen future and returning to a day job that 18 months previous, had decided I was ready to move on from!
In 2010, I have been made redundant from a large UK airline - along with 120 other B757/B767 and B737 rated pilots, most of us with all types. I've been very lucky, I found employment very quickly and as a wake up to wannabes, i'm joining a UK airline that already has a hold pool of pilots that have passed the selection process, but who are inexperienced and untype-rated! They are all still in the hold-pool!
I wouldn't want to step on anyones dream but realism has to play a huge part, the training world in itself is a mine field and on these pages you have access to people such as myself and mad_jock who are doing the job on a daily basis and are more aware than the average wannabe and flight training organisation's commercial department what the scoop is. The fact is Scoot43, at the moment, you will hear the stark reality of what is going on and wannabe's don't like it!
I've proved it - there is no place in the present industry for zero experienced frozen ATPL holders (unless you want to pay even more...), but the Wannabe Zombie Army keep marching on...
JB
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Zombies keep marching on
Dont they just - and most of them think they will be lucky and land the dream job - its unbelievable. I know that the lottery says you have to be in it to win it but all that money and effort will not open doors for you. Sadly the current climate means a distinct lack of jobs and I know of one airline that has two thousand cv's!! Its a very long queue.
Last edited by PPRuNeUser0173; 21st Mar 2010 at 19:04.
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I could not agree more with this post, there is also plenty of bitter procrastination on these forums which causes things to seem even more grim! However there is much truth on these forums, but I often feel that you need to work in the industry in some capacity to differentiate the bs from the truth. If you want to trainand become a Pilot sit down and figure out a way to do it, its still acheievable to a hard working individual without getting into stacks of debt. The European labour courts, a future national scandal along with supply and demand will see an end to the madness eventually or so we hope!
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No it is not negativity, it is reality!
I think some of the "negative" posts are just to make people aware - it is a long and hard road, and maybe you should consider a cheaper option then the £100.000 Zero to Bankrupt Hero, as to many people are naive, and without proper foundation for what they start.
Be prepared to keep your ratings, do other work for few years, and maybe dont expect the golden gates to open straight away.
Have a sober plan, still this will not secury you anything, but at least it can help you to avoid complete ruin!
For me it seems to many want to get into a shiny jet straight away, maybe more should lower they initial expections a bit more, and maybe get some more life experience first!
Be prepared to loose the money the training will cost you, and the money to keep yourself current! And maybe the upturn will come in the end, maybe it won't, we never know.
But now all can see, nothing around! Maybe next year!
I think some of the "negative" posts are just to make people aware - it is a long and hard road, and maybe you should consider a cheaper option then the £100.000 Zero to Bankrupt Hero, as to many people are naive, and without proper foundation for what they start.
Be prepared to keep your ratings, do other work for few years, and maybe dont expect the golden gates to open straight away.
Have a sober plan, still this will not secury you anything, but at least it can help you to avoid complete ruin!
For me it seems to many want to get into a shiny jet straight away, maybe more should lower they initial expections a bit more, and maybe get some more life experience first!
Be prepared to loose the money the training will cost you, and the money to keep yourself current! And maybe the upturn will come in the end, maybe it won't, we never know.
But now all can see, nothing around! Maybe next year!
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I respect this forum greatly for the insight it provides into the current state of the market, but the way it often descends into infant school tit for tat simply highlights the maturity of those contributing and for me, thats what i don't understand about this forum especially as its for wannabe pilots.....
Everyone knows its rubbish out there, but there is a way to discuss this in a mature manner, there is no need for personal, overtly blunt sentiments. Yes be direct but also be respectful of people's individual situations.
Yes anyone who blindly signs up to a £100k training contract in the current market clearly hasn't researched enough and is a fool but thats their own stupidity.
However, for those that still want to do this as a career contributors should have faith that they will go about their training in a calm, financially controlled manner. If they don't, based on all that they read on here, then they are naive beyond belief.
All i'm saying is yes its negative at the moment, but some positivity wouldn't go a miss from time to time. And before anyone jumps down my throat in saying there 'isn't anything to be positive about', lets all just remember that this is and always has been a cyclical industry. And if people are mature enough to post on here, meet them with mature replies.
All the best to all.
Regards
Concorde 14.
Everyone knows its rubbish out there, but there is a way to discuss this in a mature manner, there is no need for personal, overtly blunt sentiments. Yes be direct but also be respectful of people's individual situations.
Yes anyone who blindly signs up to a £100k training contract in the current market clearly hasn't researched enough and is a fool but thats their own stupidity.
However, for those that still want to do this as a career contributors should have faith that they will go about their training in a calm, financially controlled manner. If they don't, based on all that they read on here, then they are naive beyond belief.
All i'm saying is yes its negative at the moment, but some positivity wouldn't go a miss from time to time. And before anyone jumps down my throat in saying there 'isn't anything to be positive about', lets all just remember that this is and always has been a cyclical industry. And if people are mature enough to post on here, meet them with mature replies.
All the best to all.
Regards
Concorde 14.
Last edited by Concorde14; 23rd Mar 2010 at 10:30.
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So you don't have a problem with what we say now. Just the way we say it?
So we now have to be fluffy feely and respect your thin skin?.
Once your flying the line your not going to get that.
Whats this bollocks these days with youngster that if they don't like what your saying to them they say your not respecting them and your being immature. Is it a deflection method which is taught at school. Just face facts we don't respect you, couldn't give a toss if your ego is bruised.
So if you read a post which disagrees with your opinion and you feel disrespected. Dry your eyes nobody really gives a toss.
So we now have to be fluffy feely and respect your thin skin?.
Once your flying the line your not going to get that.
Whats this bollocks these days with youngster that if they don't like what your saying to them they say your not respecting them and your being immature. Is it a deflection method which is taught at school. Just face facts we don't respect you, couldn't give a toss if your ego is bruised.
So if you read a post which disagrees with your opinion and you feel disrespected. Dry your eyes nobody really gives a toss.
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I think a stark realisation is needed. Not just on this thread, but all over this place (apart from the Flight Testing section - no one seems to be bothered there)
You're talking to someone who is going through training as we speak, and I admit this is NOT and in NO WAY NEAR the time to start training further than a PPL.
I had a choice to go to university AND train, don't go to university train or don't train at all. At the time, the first option was the most appealing - and I bit into that apple...
Nearly two years into the course and I hold a PPL and have done my ATPLs, due to start CPL in June. At this relaxed pace, I should hold a fATPL and a BA(Hons) near the end of 2011.
Do I really think this will get me right hand seat? Maybe in a car.
I don't think, within the next 4 years, that any of this is going to change. Yes, I will hold a degree and all the necessary licences - but no airline will give a
. I'm a low hours pilot, so what?
Back to my point. People like WWW need to say what they're saying. If not, half the wannabes on this forum (like me) would be lulled into a false sense of security. I've heard it all before, "By the time we're finished, the market will be gagging for new pilots" Yeah...whatever... I probably could afford the rest of my training if I had a penny for every time someone has said that one to me!*
After all, if none of us noobs were around to start these "OMG OMG OMG!!! there's a light at the end of the tunnel!!" threads, then people such as mad-jock and WWW would have no need to tell us the grim truth of this industry.
I honestly think that they're trying to help us, and anyone who decides against their advice could be classed as a fool.
But hey! Eventually somebody, somewhere will need a pilot!
*Obviously I couldn't. Unless, of course, the training cost me like...8 of these so called pennies...
You're talking to someone who is going through training as we speak, and I admit this is NOT and in NO WAY NEAR the time to start training further than a PPL.
I had a choice to go to university AND train, don't go to university train or don't train at all. At the time, the first option was the most appealing - and I bit into that apple...
Nearly two years into the course and I hold a PPL and have done my ATPLs, due to start CPL in June. At this relaxed pace, I should hold a fATPL and a BA(Hons) near the end of 2011.
Do I really think this will get me right hand seat? Maybe in a car.
I don't think, within the next 4 years, that any of this is going to change. Yes, I will hold a degree and all the necessary licences - but no airline will give a
. I'm a low hours pilot, so what?Back to my point. People like WWW need to say what they're saying. If not, half the wannabes on this forum (like me) would be lulled into a false sense of security. I've heard it all before, "By the time we're finished, the market will be gagging for new pilots" Yeah...whatever... I probably could afford the rest of my training if I had a penny for every time someone has said that one to me!*
After all, if none of us noobs were around to start these "OMG OMG OMG!!! there's a light at the end of the tunnel!!" threads, then people such as mad-jock and WWW would have no need to tell us the grim truth of this industry.
I honestly think that they're trying to help us, and anyone who decides against their advice could be classed as a fool.
But hey! Eventually somebody, somewhere will need a pilot!
*Obviously I couldn't. Unless, of course, the training cost me like...8 of these so called pennies...
Lt. Goose - I'd be interested if you expanded slightly on the education/flight training route you are on. It sounds interesting and I'd like to learn more about this growing route.
Its commentary and Private Messages like this which keeps me performing this role over the years. There is a relentless and well funded propaganda machine spinning a pro-training message to Wannabes. The Flight Training Industry and the Employers all have a vested interest in keeping an oversupply of new pilots. Against this slick, funded wall of spin there's not much outside of PPRuNe that is willing to tell Wannabes the truth without spin.
Hence in 2005 I was on here telling Wannabes that this was a Golden Age for Wannabes and that CTC was the mutts nuts and Integrated was the best way to grab a jet job fast! But by summer 2007 I was being labelled a gloom and doom monger armchair economist pessimist for warning of a house price crash, major recession and airline bankruptcy. When the facts change then so does my opinion. The 'industry' though will ALWAYS tell you its the ideal time to train. They're bastards like that.
You are a commodity to these people. Wannabes are often young (under 30) and haven't (sorry to patronise) had many lessons in how the big bad world actually works. That. And that alone is what sparks me into pumping out posts here. Trust me, it doesn't make me popular, make my life easier or gain me anything other than the occasional word of thanks.
At the moment I'm turning more bearish than I have been for the past 3 months. I think Greece is going to turn into a contagion, UK credit rating is going to loose its AAA status and a double dip is in the pipeline.
The Olympics could be quite a low key affair next time.
WWW
Back to my point. People like WWW need to say what they're saying. If not, half the wannabes on this forum (like me) would be lulled into a false sense of security. I've heard it all before, "By the time we're finished, the market will be gagging for new pilots" Yeah...whatever... I probably could afford the rest of my training if I had a penny for every time someone has said that one to me!*
After all, if none of us noobs were around to start these "OMG OMG OMG!!! there's a light at the end of the tunnel!!" threads, then people such as mad-jock and WWW would have no need to tell us the grim truth of this industry.
I honestly think that they're trying to help us, and anyone who decides against their advice could be classed as a fool.
After all, if none of us noobs were around to start these "OMG OMG OMG!!! there's a light at the end of the tunnel!!" threads, then people such as mad-jock and WWW would have no need to tell us the grim truth of this industry.
I honestly think that they're trying to help us, and anyone who decides against their advice could be classed as a fool.
Its commentary and Private Messages like this which keeps me performing this role over the years. There is a relentless and well funded propaganda machine spinning a pro-training message to Wannabes. The Flight Training Industry and the Employers all have a vested interest in keeping an oversupply of new pilots. Against this slick, funded wall of spin there's not much outside of PPRuNe that is willing to tell Wannabes the truth without spin.
Hence in 2005 I was on here telling Wannabes that this was a Golden Age for Wannabes and that CTC was the mutts nuts and Integrated was the best way to grab a jet job fast! But by summer 2007 I was being labelled a gloom and doom monger armchair economist pessimist for warning of a house price crash, major recession and airline bankruptcy. When the facts change then so does my opinion. The 'industry' though will ALWAYS tell you its the ideal time to train. They're bastards like that.
You are a commodity to these people. Wannabes are often young (under 30) and haven't (sorry to patronise) had many lessons in how the big bad world actually works. That. And that alone is what sparks me into pumping out posts here. Trust me, it doesn't make me popular, make my life easier or gain me anything other than the occasional word of thanks.
At the moment I'm turning more bearish than I have been for the past 3 months. I think Greece is going to turn into a contagion, UK credit rating is going to loose its AAA status and a double dip is in the pipeline.
The Olympics could be quite a low key affair next time.
WWW
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Sure thing!
It's basically run between Cabair, that reputable training organisation and Bucks New University (not my first choice uni, but the only one to run this type of course at the time).
As quoted from the university:
"The degree in air transport is designed for those students who wish to obtain a recognised degree in air transport management with a view to pursuing a career in the airline and airport industry. It is particularly aimed at those wishing to qualify as commercial pilots. The BA (Hons) Air Transport with Commercial Pilot Training degree reflects the changes inherent in the dynamic aviation industry and prepares students with the skills and knowledge required to work within the aviation field."
I think they're beating around the bush. If you can't get a job as a pilot, do something in the industry to bide your time is what I think they mean!
. I'm not sure how well this will ACTUALLY work though, but that's life.
To break the course down, you spend the first year at university campus in High Wycombe... Doing assignments as well as training for your PPL (15hrs only). At the end of that year you buzz off to Florida for a month to complete your PPL. The next year is spent at Cabair's Bournemouth or Cranfield locations for your ATPLs for 6 months - pretty boring stuff. Then, once again you're shipped off to the US of A to hours build as so many do before returning to Wycombe Air Park or Bournemouth to gain your CPL. By this time it's two years after starting your course and you're going back to uni to do the serious work!
After that year, you do your IR and MCC in the summer with Cabair and voilą you've got a job! (Or so they say)
Back to the point of the thread... ummmm....likee....err.... I hope the economic situation gets better? Yeah. That'll do.
It's basically run between Cabair, that reputable training organisation
and Bucks New University (not my first choice uni, but the only one to run this type of course at the time).As quoted from the university:
"The degree in air transport is designed for those students who wish to obtain a recognised degree in air transport management with a view to pursuing a career in the airline and airport industry. It is particularly aimed at those wishing to qualify as commercial pilots. The BA (Hons) Air Transport with Commercial Pilot Training degree reflects the changes inherent in the dynamic aviation industry and prepares students with the skills and knowledge required to work within the aviation field."
I think they're beating around the bush. If you can't get a job as a pilot, do something in the industry to bide your time is what I think they mean!
. I'm not sure how well this will ACTUALLY work though, but that's life. To break the course down, you spend the first year at university campus in High Wycombe... Doing assignments as well as training for your PPL (15hrs only). At the end of that year you buzz off to Florida for a month to complete your PPL. The next year is spent at Cabair's Bournemouth or Cranfield locations for your ATPLs for 6 months - pretty boring stuff. Then, once again you're shipped off to the US of A to hours build as so many do before returning to Wycombe Air Park or Bournemouth to gain your CPL. By this time it's two years after starting your course and you're going back to uni to do the serious work!
After that year, you do your IR and MCC in the summer with Cabair and voilą you've got a job! (Or so they say)
Back to the point of the thread... ummmm....likee....err.... I hope the economic situation gets better? Yeah. That'll do.
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Concorde
TBH, I think there is a class of people who just like baiting other individuals for the sake of it. They like lighting the the blue touch paper and retiring. Pesonally I enjoy watching a good online scrap taking place, and these pages provide ample opportunities to do it. Some of the blunt comments directed at individuals have me in stitches, yes I know the p in pprune stand for professional but some of the some are real classics. Keep up the good work boys.
TBH, I think there is a class of people who just like baiting other individuals for the sake of it. They like lighting the the blue touch paper and retiring. Pesonally I enjoy watching a good online scrap taking place, and these pages provide ample opportunities to do it. Some of the blunt comments directed at individuals have me in stitches, yes I know the p in pprune stand for professional but some of the some are real classics. Keep up the good work boys.
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bit of oil in to the fire
I'm not posting very often - usually when I need to ask something as you would expect from someone doing his/her ATPLs...
... yes industry is not in great shape (I work in it last six years)
... yes everyone wants to be pilot
... yes prospects are not great
... but it seems to me that all these negative comments are coming from "want to be FO" trying scare away any possible competition
... from FOs who spent fortune for their training (as I am doing) and are too worried of any possible competition as they do not feel secure in their current position...
cheers FrankO
... yes industry is not in great shape (I work in it last six years)
... yes everyone wants to be pilot
... yes prospects are not great
... but it seems to me that all these negative comments are coming from "want to be FO" trying scare away any possible competition
... from FOs who spent fortune for their training (as I am doing) and are too worried of any possible competition as they do not feel secure in their current position...
cheers FrankO
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I think what people are trying to say is, based on experience - sure go for it, but don't expect to be get a job straight away as an FO on a big shiny jet.
Make sure you can manage to survive for few years after you have your CPL and IR, because it migth take you 3 - 5 years before you even get a sniff at a proper job.
On the other hand, if you have more money then sense, you probably would not be on these boards seeking advice anyway!
There will be jobs, but not to many for low hours newbies, but where there is a will there is a way.
I have seens flight schools, where the instructors are still working after few years now, that is a bad sign for jobs, as they normally are regulary fed to airlines as they improve their experience and hours. Just not happening now, thats not scaring anyone, thats a fact.
Accept that you might not be able to work as a professional full time pilot for a few years after finished training, if you can survive that, I guess you will be fine! If you have to much debts, you will not be around when the upturn comes, because you will not have been able to stay current, or /and not able to pay for TR if required with job offer!
WWW does not need to fear any of us newbies, nothing for him to gain by BS everybody!
Pretty paranoid to believe there is a conspiracy on PPRUNE to scare away potenial newbie threaths, think you might have been watching to much X - files!
Make sure you can manage to survive for few years after you have your CPL and IR, because it migth take you 3 - 5 years before you even get a sniff at a proper job.
On the other hand, if you have more money then sense, you probably would not be on these boards seeking advice anyway!
There will be jobs, but not to many for low hours newbies, but where there is a will there is a way.
I have seens flight schools, where the instructors are still working after few years now, that is a bad sign for jobs, as they normally are regulary fed to airlines as they improve their experience and hours. Just not happening now, thats not scaring anyone, thats a fact.
Accept that you might not be able to work as a professional full time pilot for a few years after finished training, if you can survive that, I guess you will be fine! If you have to much debts, you will not be around when the upturn comes, because you will not have been able to stay current, or /and not able to pay for TR if required with job offer!
WWW does not need to fear any of us newbies, nothing for him to gain by BS everybody!
Pretty paranoid to believe there is a conspiracy on PPRUNE to scare away potenial newbie threaths, think you might have been watching to much X - files!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: london
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Mad Jock
You do seem pretty bitter about the industry but all industries are ****** right now. If you dont like it go do something else and stop whining. WWW it is good to warn people against the marketing bs but same again stop bleating on about it. Perhaps you didnt do as well as you hoped because of your whiney attitude and inability to cope in a crisis
You do seem pretty bitter about the industry but all industries are ****** right now. If you dont like it go do something else and stop whining. WWW it is good to warn people against the marketing bs but same again stop bleating on about it. Perhaps you didnt do as well as you hoped because of your whiney attitude and inability to cope in a crisis