Line training: the debate

[170to5]

Seeing as countless people who come onto these forums now seem to be asking about line training programs, I thought it would be useful for them to be able to read the opinions on these schemes of actual operating pilots, not just of the people who do them but of the damage they do to the flying industry.

I hope this will begin to open people's eyes on the status these pay-to-fly persons are given, both good and bad (I suspect there will be more one than the other), and they will actually consider the fact that they are being told how they will be seen by the wider pilot body. Which is in reality a very, very small community, and is comprised of the people who will one day be interviewing you for a job when the question 'so I see here that you had your first 150 hours with [insert company name]...what's that all about?' arises. Glad I never had to answer that one with my pilot recruiter.

I would start but I'm eating my lunch.

Discuss.

[hollingworthp]

SSTR is a shame but generally unavoidable in the current market conditions - it is hard to ignore the volume of flying you will get with RyanAir and the pay is good assuming you get the right roster.

However, paying for line-training is just plane (see what I did there?) wrong IMHO.

Is it a career (i.e. where they pay you) you are looking for or just the world's most expensive playground ride (where you pay them)?

[170to5]

some would say, yes a playground. But you pay them and they ride you.

[student88]

I am not a operating pilot however I fear that this will soon become the norm unless action is taken by groups like BALPA.

If a facebook petition can stop the X-Factor finalist reaching the Christmas number one then us as a pilot community can do something, even if it's to educate wannabe pilots.

It's just knowing what to do Ideas anyone?

Anyway, I'm off to Bluewater - it's been nice knowing you.

S88

[EI-CON]

I think the airlines who do these programs are partly to blame aswell as the individuals who sign up to them. They are making a mock of the profession and of the individuals involved.

To add to the latest Easyjet one I have also heard Farnair are running a similar program.

[170to5]

I've just copied my reply to a thread about line training which gives my opinion in a brief manner, which is most unlike me:

Personally, I'd happily avoid giving someone a name, and preaching. I would then go on the inform said person of the existence of those other threads, and hence they would realise why people won't give them a name.

Paying for line training is taking a job from someone. And those who undergo these programs thinking 150 hours will help at a time when there are thousands of people out of a job are not only misled, but foolish.

The rot in this industry is driven by the realisation that people are willing to pay for what would otherwise be someone's living. That management boards have realised not only that they can abuse pilots, but can actually make some people pay for the 'privilege' of flying commercially, is disastrous for those of us who want a career in this industry. Commercially, by which I mean FLYING FOR A LIVING.

[ab33t]

not only are they ridding us but we pay them for the privilage

[Torque Tonight]

I won't make any comment on the 'what other people think of you' aspect, as I don't think that is always a reliable yardstick. What I will say though, is that the whole point of line training is to indoctrinate a new pilot into a particular company's SOPs. Therefore, undertaking line training independently or at an airline that will not provide employment after completion of training is utterly pointless and any 'graduate' of such schemes stands almost no chance of gaining employment, especially in the current market.

[Cirrus_Clouds]

The pilots who I know who fly jets were lucky enough to have the airline fund the TR as a bond and one of those was Easyjet and they were all modular - times sure have changed.

It sounds like the airlines just hard/tight for cash like everyone and most businesses and the best way to minimise the risk is to get the pilots to carry the burden on their shoulder with even more debt and the airline still wins. ... until pilots decide to stop paying!!!

I'm still progressing with my training but if airlines keep on doing this I have a feeling I may just give up rather than "paying" an employer to give me a job. We'll no doubt see extra costs on top of a TR for the pilot to pay and will become no doubt the norm (line training) .. in short, the career isn't worth pursuing at all, whilst all the time your expected to pay more and more, not guranteed a job or could loose it on the click of the finger if you *** up your medical! There are some who may sell their home to live in a Caravan or shed to try and make it work!

There will become a point that trainees from e.g. CTC, OAA etc will start seeing that being massively in debt and being pilled with more and more debt is just ... but hey, some learn the hard way

I'm actually glad I didn't get accepted by CTC, I think they did me a favour in many ways and let others get massively in debt, with even more debt potenially from the sounds of things, thanks

There is more to life than just being bankcrupt and helping keep a business in business with your own money! lol

Right that's that out of my system! Can't believe how this industry is developing!!

[Artie Fufkin]

When I signed up for flight training, I was advised (correctly) that I should understand that I would need to be able to do whatever it takes to land my first job, be that working at the wrong end of the country, sacrifice relationships, maybe even pay for a type rating (if a firm job offer was attached) etc.

But paying for line training, especially now, is not "whatever it takes".

Firstly, the airline you pay will typically give you enough hours to pass a line check. In the same way that you only start to learn to drive after you pass your driving test, you only start to learn properly how to fly jets / airline style flying once you are line checked and let loose to terrorise the airline's line captains. This is of course the point where pay-to-fly pilots are cut loose. You'll be rough as a badgers arse and airline recruiters know it.

Secondly, there are no jobs currently available. Throwing money at the problem will not work. You'll pay for your line flying up to check ride and then join the dole queue of all the other out of work pilots, all of whom are much more employable than you. It is an absolutely insane idea.

[SinBin]

Guys, my airline does line training, and to be honest these 'pay as you go types' are all treated like outcasts, so much so they don't even come into the crewroom any more as they'll be linched. The reason, over 100 of us properly employed pilots are due to be laid off, with these idiots doing our flying and no stopping to it, lots of very bitter feeling now, understandably. When you are in my situation you will realise what a pointless and dreadful exercise this is. It really is killing this once respectable profession, and that is a fact. No-one is recruiting low hours guys, even the PAYG cadets. DON'T DO IT, IT IS COMPLETELY POINTLESS, 150 HOURS ON TYPE IS USELESS, wait your turn it will come, even if it is 2-3 years, the industry is in the worst downturn ever, FACT.

[riciardi]

Paying for flying, flying prostitutes etc..

In the old days the airlines would pay from zero to hero!

Now-a-days those of you who have paid for the fronzenATPL are as prostitutes as those who pay for line training. The difference is on the bank account. Those who can´t afford the fronzen ATPL think the same about those who can..

[170to5]

And you'll earn a lot of respect from the guys you end up working with because you took that route!

And I didn't even realise that people were paying to fly commercial single seat!

[hollingworthp]

Can you even log time in the RHS of a single-pilot rated aircraft?

[Anne.Nonymous]

Having looked at some of his previous posts it appears that I work for the same airline as SinBin but, as this is a debate about the whole scheme, perhaps we should have the facts.

• We do have PAYG F/Os.
• It is CAA approved scheme
• They are there with BALPA agreement.
• They generate income and retain training posts that would otherwise go
• There is no reduction in manning levels due to PAYG F/Os - there IS a redundancy package in place due to the overall restructuring of the airline and the subsequent reduction in routes and frequency of some flights.

The only loss to the other F/Os is the loss of allowances because we will be either at home on 'stand-by' or on airport stand-by in which case we get lower allowances.

The AOC issued by the CAA requires the airline to be fully manned with trained pilots - otherwise the Flt Ops inspector would have a ball!

One other fact is that £10,000 for 150 hours flying is only £67 per hour - very cheap hour building that includes on the airline experience! Like it or not it is here to stay.

Certainly not management but just want to get the facts straight.

Anne

[Torque Tonight]

£67/hr is a bargain - you couldn't rent a clapped out Cessna 150 for that. But then again maybe not such a bargain when you consider that £67/hr is perhaps £150/hr more expensive than being a professional pilot undertaking line training once was. Once upon a time airlines used to pay the pilots to operate revenue flights, not the other way round. I'll tell my kids but they'll never believe it! Merry Christmas to bmi shareholders etc.

[Photon85]

There seems to be a way, yes

[Superpilot]

Indeed £10k and even £15k is an absolute bargain for 150 hours of hour building in a multi crew twin jet aircraft. However despite the bargain that it appears to be when compared to hour building in a C152 or PA-28, ask yourself what the airline is gaining. Essentially, these airlines are doing away with the need of ever hiring First Officers. All they need to do is hire and pay a bunch of experienced training captains to sit in the left seat.

Hence, each and every one of us who take up such offers, we are actually quite directly putting in another nail into our own coffins. As by offering line "training" these very airlines who would ordinarily be looking to hire us will have no such openings in months and years to come. Why? they would much rather take on a new batch of cadets just churned out by flight schools all ready and eager to work for free for 3-6 months.

The regulators of European aviation are asleep and the unions pathetically scared to do anything about it. The choice is clear. Every single person contemplating line training without a firm job offer must reject and forget this idea.

[Kirks gusset]

Can I start a discussion on " line training, the backlog" whilst there is plenty of referrence to the topic and morality of these programs, has anyone actually considered the backlog of applicants in the system? As a TRI I am shocked to see guys appearing for recurrent training that signed up to these programs nearly a year ago..maybe the deal should include a recurrent check if you get side lined! The Airlines may give you an OCC and LPC, but what happens in the mean time, the months of waiting, sitting in distant lands at your cost. These companies depend on the enthusiasm of the student and the bottomless pockets of the parents, relatives and banks. Rather than question the morals, and let's face it, these schemes will continue, perhaps some form of regulation, escrow bonding should be in place.. just a thought. Seasonal greetings!

[wanabe2010]

"The choice is clear. Every single person contemplating line training without a firm job offer must reject and forget this idea"

they won't, the temptation to fly a passenger jet is too big. They will do anything to get the job.
When you have spent so much money for your commercial training, you can not stop. We became "drug addicted".

Then, there is the problem to not to loose face.What my friends& family will say after I have spent all my money for nothing? Waiting or going on these ripp off schemes.
After type rating, line training, easyjet will soon sell blocktime on their bus. 500h or 1000h on jet will become soon a "new standard"in this industry and many schools will offer these schemes after the MCC and the type rating to stay competitive.

Aviation will become the most expensive training in the world.
In the future, we may see a drop of applicants, but there will be always enough young wanabes looking for the gig on jets airplanes.
There will be two trainingpaths, the one for flight instructor, seaplane, etc and the one for the "lines".