Arrrghhh (FAA to JAA)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Arrrghhh (FAA to JAA)
Hello All,
Just wanting to vent a bit after months of study for my impending 14 conversion exams to a JAA ATP. Although I am confident I can pass them, I have to ask - WHY?!
As in, why are these test so obnoxiously in-depth?! Why do I need to know that Chlong x sin Lat origin = X? Or that the Bourdon tube is contained in xxx instrument? I have two type ratings - E145 and B747-400, have flown all over the world, and not once have I ever needed to call upon 90% of the information I am to be tested on!!!
I think this is the perfect example of people thinking it is more important to know how to find the square root of a banana, than to know how to actually peel one........
2 words - Practical Application. There is little, and it is much needed and used in the real world.
Okay, I feel better now. Please chaps, reassure me that you all hit the dump button as soon as the last test is passed...?! Okay back to General Nav...........
Just wanting to vent a bit after months of study for my impending 14 conversion exams to a JAA ATP. Although I am confident I can pass them, I have to ask - WHY?!
As in, why are these test so obnoxiously in-depth?! Why do I need to know that Chlong x sin Lat origin = X? Or that the Bourdon tube is contained in xxx instrument? I have two type ratings - E145 and B747-400, have flown all over the world, and not once have I ever needed to call upon 90% of the information I am to be tested on!!!
I think this is the perfect example of people thinking it is more important to know how to find the square root of a banana, than to know how to actually peel one........
2 words - Practical Application. There is little, and it is much needed and used in the real world.
Okay, I feel better now. Please chaps, reassure me that you all hit the dump button as soon as the last test is passed...?! Okay back to General Nav...........
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please chaps, reassure me that you all hit the dump button as soon as the last test is passed.
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Neither Here Nor There
Posts: 1,121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you may find the words 'job', 'protection', 'perks', 'grossly', 'over-inflated', 'salaries', 'final', 'salary' (again), 'pension' and 'scheme' all in the same sentence..........but don't let my tainted opinion blur your own viewpoint!!! 
There are pointless exams (Separate VFR / IFR Comms exams????
) and in some countries at least, the examination system is a revenue creating gravy train, with extortionately priced exams.
The EU is slowly (very slowly) adopting the US way of doing things but with the speed of a striking slow-worm, and we may one day see a unified examination, probably just in time for the Organisation of European United Federations (OEUF - run by the French of course) Commercial Air Transportation Pilot Inter-Stellar Shuttle (CATPISS) Licence with Mars Rating. Don't worry, folks, they'll probably c
k that up as well.
There are pointless exams (Separate VFR / IFR Comms exams????
) and in some countries at least, the examination system is a revenue creating gravy train, with extortionately priced exams. The EU is slowly (very slowly) adopting the US way of doing things but with the speed of a striking slow-worm, and we may one day see a unified examination, probably just in time for the Organisation of European United Federations (OEUF - run by the French of course) Commercial Air Transportation Pilot Inter-Stellar Shuttle (CATPISS) Licence with Mars Rating. Don't worry, folks, they'll probably c
k that up as well.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Okay, I feel better now. Please chaps, reassure me that you all hit the dump button as soon as the last test is passed...?!
On a positive note:
The more you learn, the more you can forget afterwards.
I truly miss the "hands-on" approach they have in the US. In these JAR ATPL books they take a
15 pages to explain how to fly a turn. WTF 
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I second all your points and thanks for your encouragement. Had I not been furloughed I may have been a little closer to that 1500 747 PIC......to bad the 1000 PIC on an E145 doesn't count......
It truly is amazing that there is very little in the way of memory aids for the zero time/ low time guys who are new to all this. For example the Mag compass errors - ANDS/UNOS. Nah, much better to remember another bloody equation!
It truly is amazing that there is very little in the way of memory aids for the zero time/ low time guys who are new to all this. For example the Mag compass errors - ANDS/UNOS. Nah, much better to remember another bloody equation!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Neither Here Nor There
Posts: 1,121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ANDS and UNOS are still flavour of the month as are many other mnemonics and Rules of Thumb.
It's not all lengthy equations but that's very much a case of 'horses for courses', dependent on which country you do your exams. Some countries seem to be more inclined towards the more theoretical and some towards the more practical.
HTH
It's not all lengthy equations but that's very much a case of 'horses for courses', dependent on which country you do your exams. Some countries seem to be more inclined towards the more theoretical and some towards the more practical.
HTH
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: West London
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately some bits get stuck in your brain, and for me it is details of the Baluchistan low pressure area in Climatology...... Much of the detail is of little use to anybody but it generates revenue for those who train and test you. For that reason it will be a bold person who dares to cut back on the existing syllabus.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dark Africa
Age: 49
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is exactly why I decided to go to USA to finish my CPL. The flight training here is great but I opted to stop suffering with the useless theory that CPL students must learn in South Africa. Although there are 8 and not 14 exams the SA syllabus is pretty much the same as the JAA (calculate the square root of the banana). 
From a pilot point of view I am glad not having a European nationality.
From a pilot point of view I am glad not having a European nationality.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Plenty of other people have managed them, without having them dumbed down to suit their own perceptions. Given the current levels of supply and demand perhaps they should revert back to the pre multiple choice days, and make them more difficult.
Perhaps another aspect should be considered (as are the US congress,) that an ATPL should be the minimum requirement for an Airline Transport pilot, no matter what their rank? Not frozen or part qualified, but held.
Perhaps another aspect should be considered (as are the US congress,) that an ATPL should be the minimum requirement for an Airline Transport pilot, no matter what their rank? Not frozen or part qualified, but held.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: in a van down by the river
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So you are going to take all the 14 JAA ATPL exams and then what? So what, you may have 10,000 hours in the G5, Challenger, B744 and the NASA Space Shuttle but all that doesn't mean jack in the ol JAA-land. You are then going to have to do the ATPL skills test in a Sim reprensentative of a JAR part 25 aircraft. So, you say to yourself "gee I can do that at FlightSafety in the USA at a fraction of the cost compared to Europe"....but wait young Skywalker...the JAA force is strong! Flightsafety and the others may say they are certified for JAA training, and they are....but who is going to issue that JAR ATPL license? Do you think somebody in the USA can print you that license...that would be funny. So now you have to go to a participating JAA country's authority (you see each country can still and still does interpets the JAA rules as they see fit) and say hey I did the type rating with an examiner who had an FAA and JAA certification, but they now tell you that certain maneuvers have to be done in the actual jet. So you charter out an empty jet for a couple of hours and take yet another check-ride. So, now you have the ATPL license....but guess what the 100th airline in Europe just filed bankruptcy and put all their pilots on the street. Take a number, homey because you suddenly went to the back of the line. Oh and even if you do have the legal ribght to live and work in Europe...I bet you do not have an EU passport...gotcha! Guess what, you aint flying! (Please forgive me if you are European and do have the Passport....but you will still have to join the queue).
Honestly, though I do wish you luck. Calculating wavelength and frequency have never been so much fun. Sorry to sound so bitter, but this industry makes you want to tear your hair out!!!!!
Honestly, though I do wish you luck. Calculating wavelength and frequency have never been so much fun. Sorry to sound so bitter, but this industry makes you want to tear your hair out!!!!!
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Recently? All over the place.... but mostly somewhere between Europe and the UK....
Age: 36
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh man...I'm feeling with you....god save the JAA
Seriously though there are some (!!) useful things I learned during this whole "conversion" (8 months...yeah right whatever...) ordeal, a bit more on Met and PoF wouldn't hurt the us system....
But apart from that I completely agree with what you're saying....
And here's the best thing, many of the folks that did all of their training in Europe under JAA are actually completely and utterly convinced by the absolute superiority of their system
what's it called again....oh yeah "bigoted" is the word I was looking for.... It's the old "Oh you've got an FAA license huh? I heard it's pretty easy to get those tickets..."
I'm going to throw myself a bit in the line of fire here; is it me or can anyone get the atpl theory these days? Just click through Bristol 8 hours a day for 3 weeks and hey presto, there's your pass...
Sorry chaps don't get me wrong here I'm not talking about those actually trying to understand pof, met and agk etc. but those who just blindly click through databases till they know every bloody question by the choice of answers given.... I mean those databases are great tools to learn the way the jaa formulate their questions but not to "learn" the subject....
Sorry guys I just had to moan a bit but I'm done now, promised
Seriously though there are some (!!) useful things I learned during this whole "conversion" (8 months...yeah right whatever...) ordeal, a bit more on Met and PoF wouldn't hurt the us system....
But apart from that I completely agree with what you're saying....
And here's the best thing, many of the folks that did all of their training in Europe under JAA are actually completely and utterly convinced by the absolute superiority of their system
what's it called again....oh yeah "bigoted" is the word I was looking for.... It's the old "Oh you've got an FAA license huh? I heard it's pretty easy to get those tickets..."I'm going to throw myself a bit in the line of fire here; is it me or can anyone get the atpl theory these days? Just click through Bristol 8 hours a day for 3 weeks and hey presto, there's your pass...
Sorry chaps don't get me wrong here I'm not talking about those actually trying to understand pof, met and agk etc. but those who just blindly click through databases till they know every bloody question by the choice of answers given.... I mean those databases are great tools to learn the way the jaa formulate their questions but not to "learn" the subject....
Sorry guys I just had to moan a bit but I'm done now, promised
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, thank you 'lpokijuhyt' for your reply...I appreciate the honesty. And believe me, I am bitter too - I am converting my licence to double my slim chances of finding a job in this market! Contrary to what you said however, I am a fully fledged UK citizen and have been from birth. Went all through the British education system (back when it was hard), and even passed and joined a certain Hong Kong airline, so I have been educated on the 'your kidding, right?' level, both academically and professionally....
That being said, now that I have been around the flying block a time or two, and now am residing on furloughed street, I cannot but think these exams are bizarre at best - and moronic at worst. Granted, there are some very good reasons to actually learn the subject - and I somewhat disagree with the FAA 1/2 a day study technique - but there has to be a happy medium. From where I sit (behind my desk with a CRP-5 and a scientific calculator) this has not yet been met on an international level, and speaks more to the glaring differences between the FAA/JAA, than all the 'integration' talk we hear of endlessly.
Like I have stated already, I am confident that I can pass, and indeed am endlessly grateful for the thousands of hours I have notched up, as no doubt this is the reason for my confidence. But I feel for those that are new, and have no "been there, seen that, broke that" foundation to draw on. But the government is happy, as are the flight schools - as it means more cash for them.
No studying tonight. A night off is needed...!
That being said, now that I have been around the flying block a time or two, and now am residing on furloughed street, I cannot but think these exams are bizarre at best - and moronic at worst. Granted, there are some very good reasons to actually learn the subject - and I somewhat disagree with the FAA 1/2 a day study technique - but there has to be a happy medium. From where I sit (behind my desk with a CRP-5 and a scientific calculator) this has not yet been met on an international level, and speaks more to the glaring differences between the FAA/JAA, than all the 'integration' talk we hear of endlessly.
Like I have stated already, I am confident that I can pass, and indeed am endlessly grateful for the thousands of hours I have notched up, as no doubt this is the reason for my confidence. But I feel for those that are new, and have no "been there, seen that, broke that" foundation to draw on. But the government is happy, as are the flight schools - as it means more cash for them.
No studying tonight. A night off is needed...!
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
oh yeah "bigoted" is the word I was looking for.
Cheers
Whirls
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Feel your pain mate, been there done that, got the t-shirt but it all worked out in the end.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Austria
Age: 52
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...I bet you do not have an EU passport...gotcha! Guess what, you aint flying! (Please forgive me if you are European and do have the Passport....but you will still have to join the queue).
I rather enjoyed them - but I'm a masochist who did a PhD in aerospace engineering as a part time hobby.
But you're absolutely right, the level of information required has it's roots rather more in 1930s military flight training than it does in any necessary level for operating aeroplanes. I personally use the material I learned a lot and still have all the notes on the shelf - but I work as an aviation boffin who flies occasionally, and the flying part of my identity rarely uses the material.
With the odd exception to be fair - FP&P & GNAV I'd not change but air-law and operational procedures would be much more sensible open book since who in their right mind would trust to memory for any of that material in the real world?
The only faintly sound justification I've seen for the JAA approach is that it's an effective pre-screener to ensure that you've got the determination and mental capacity to tackle professional flight training and then the joys of an operating company ops manual. But, that's a fairly tenuous justification and doesn't really hold water.
G
But you're absolutely right, the level of information required has it's roots rather more in 1930s military flight training than it does in any necessary level for operating aeroplanes. I personally use the material I learned a lot and still have all the notes on the shelf - but I work as an aviation boffin who flies occasionally, and the flying part of my identity rarely uses the material.
With the odd exception to be fair - FP&P & GNAV I'd not change but air-law and operational procedures would be much more sensible open book since who in their right mind would trust to memory for any of that material in the real world?
The only faintly sound justification I've seen for the JAA approach is that it's an effective pre-screener to ensure that you've got the determination and mental capacity to tackle professional flight training and then the joys of an operating company ops manual. But, that's a fairly tenuous justification and doesn't really hold water.
G