Guys, Don't Do it.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
=WWW: a decade ago I was a wannabe
= CABUS: pleanty of other chaps out there who would dream of doing the job and I really reckon some of them would do it to a higher standard
Supercharged PPRuNer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Doon the watter, a million miles from the sandpit.
Posts: 1,183
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At the risk of repeating myself, I have met guys in training who were in it for the ray bans and the chance to impress girlies. I'd be amazed if some of them even made it to an airline, let alone managed a career out of it. I have also met professional pilots who have done nothing else in their lives and would frankly benefit from a spell in the real world. They are a small minority, however. The vast majority of pilots I've met - from students to 30 year captains - are as passionate about flying as I am. Hell, I fly with one chap who has 23,000hrs and started flying before I was born - and who goes home to fly an Extra 300 at the weekends.
And that's my point - you need that passion. It's what keeps you motivated, whether you're a teenager doing GCSEs and dreaming of a far-off career, a student studying mind-numbing ATPL subjects, or a 200hr CPL holder wondering how the hell you'll ever get a job. And you'll certainly need it once you do find work - trust me, there are more downsides to commercial flying than I'd ever imagined, and I thought I'd done my homework. And before we get into a 'my job's worse than yours' contest, I know how lucky I am, but I can't think of many other careers where your competence is tested every six months and failure can mean suspension or dismissal.
I respect people who decide this game isn't for them, because I've been there and nearly made that decision myself - the pros and cons were always very finely balanced. In the end though, it was a love of flying that got me here, and is what keeps me motivated now. I had a horrible journey to work yesterday; nearly two hours to do 50 miles, followed by a mad dash to the crew room to print off the paperwork, then join a long queue to get felt up by 'security'. And then it all changed. Someone gave me the controls of a £20 million bus, we sat at the holding point for nearly half an hour, and I got to plane-spot and build hours and get paid for it. Then we went flying, and I managed a decent approach and landing onto a short, wet runway, in a gusting crosswind that a few months ago would have seen me handing control to the other bloke. And I was as happy as a pig in you-know-what.
For me it boils down to a very simple question - how much do you love flying?
And that's my point - you need that passion. It's what keeps you motivated, whether you're a teenager doing GCSEs and dreaming of a far-off career, a student studying mind-numbing ATPL subjects, or a 200hr CPL holder wondering how the hell you'll ever get a job. And you'll certainly need it once you do find work - trust me, there are more downsides to commercial flying than I'd ever imagined, and I thought I'd done my homework. And before we get into a 'my job's worse than yours' contest, I know how lucky I am, but I can't think of many other careers where your competence is tested every six months and failure can mean suspension or dismissal.
I respect people who decide this game isn't for them, because I've been there and nearly made that decision myself - the pros and cons were always very finely balanced. In the end though, it was a love of flying that got me here, and is what keeps me motivated now. I had a horrible journey to work yesterday; nearly two hours to do 50 miles, followed by a mad dash to the crew room to print off the paperwork, then join a long queue to get felt up by 'security'. And then it all changed. Someone gave me the controls of a £20 million bus, we sat at the holding point for nearly half an hour, and I got to plane-spot and build hours and get paid for it. Then we went flying, and I managed a decent approach and landing onto a short, wet runway, in a gusting crosswind that a few months ago would have seen me handing control to the other bloke. And I was as happy as a pig in you-know-what.
For me it boils down to a very simple question - how much do you love flying?
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: up a gumtree
Age: 53
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When supply outstrips demand for jobs should the experienced guy (which I'm not) tell it how it is at risk of sounding like they are trying to scare off the newguys, afterall we are all competing for the jobs at the moment, and there are only a few months difference between someone with 500hrs on a jet and someone with 300hrs straight out of flight school. Or is it more a case of helping to stop them getting into crippling debt when probability is against them? Perhaps a bit of both if people are being honest.
Whether people started the course for the 'the right reasons' or not isn't really relevant once they are £40-70k down the line. I think most Pilots enjoy the flying side whether their first taste of it was on an integrated course, or uncle bobs flying club down the road. If they don't, then there are plenty of opportunities to bow out during training and plenty of reasons in the current climate.
I did a while in commercial flying, then went back to instructing for various reasons. If I was thinking about going through training now I'd probably hold off doing the ground school, if I'd done the ground school I would hold off the flying training as long as the ground school time limit allowed. But I certainly wouldn't ditch my plans entirely, and I wouldn't waste any money on an FI course without a job agreed before hand.
Whether people started the course for the 'the right reasons' or not isn't really relevant once they are £40-70k down the line. I think most Pilots enjoy the flying side whether their first taste of it was on an integrated course, or uncle bobs flying club down the road. If they don't, then there are plenty of opportunities to bow out during training and plenty of reasons in the current climate.
I did a while in commercial flying, then went back to instructing for various reasons. If I was thinking about going through training now I'd probably hold off doing the ground school, if I'd done the ground school I would hold off the flying training as long as the ground school time limit allowed. But I certainly wouldn't ditch my plans entirely, and I wouldn't waste any money on an FI course without a job agreed before hand.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
and there are only a few months difference between someone with 500hrs on a jet and someone with 300hrs straight out of flight school.
Jabbejokker - maybe this flying lark is not for you - I flew a visual approach into Nice yesterday, no autopilot, flight director, autothrottle; scenery was amazing and I was being paid for it. - Awesome -
I then had to do the walkround, sunning myself in 27deg blistering heat, getting off on all the playboy biz jets and VIP Airbus' on the remote stands; not to mention the departure, turning at 500ft over the sea, climbing through the overhead, looking out towards Nice, Monaco and the mountains - best office in the world
Of course the industry has issues - find me an industry that doesn't have its own issues and stresses but be gratetful you have a job -
If you don't like it go and find your ideal job and free the seat up for someone who appreciates it.
Last edited by TurboJ; 15th Jul 2009 at 10:50.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
working conditions
I think those pilots who moan about working conditions, work hours etc should try a real job for a while - they will race back.
By the way by "real job" I don't mean 9-5, a lot of people in my position would kill for a 9-5. I don't actually know of any of my grad friends who have the luxury of working just 40 hours a week.
To give you an idea of other options out there, I work in an intense commercial enviroment in the city. My work hours are typically 9-9, 5 days a week. The longest I have worked is a 23 hour day, followed by 4 hours of sleep, then a 12 hour day on top. (and we don't have the luxury of planned rosters, you don't know how you daya will pan out until it is over).
On top of that you have to deal with intense commercial pressure, messed-up office politics, and the fact that in the 12 months you have been here 20% of your colleagues have been fired for not making the grade. And you could be next.
Oh yes, and the pay per hour is crap. This is after studying hard for 3 years in an intense university course (and no, I did not study at Wigan Polytechnic!)
I tell my friends at work I am saving up to be a pilot and they all envy me, even if the pay is not as great and you get treated like a child. Still, it is a dream job, not what is used to be, but can you think of anything else you would rather do? 80 hours of flying a month for an average starting salary of £25k, probably averaging £60k a year over the course of a career? I would think that is worth the investment in the flying course, maybe not today, but in the next 5 years definitely.
The grass is pretty brown on this side.
By the way by "real job" I don't mean 9-5, a lot of people in my position would kill for a 9-5. I don't actually know of any of my grad friends who have the luxury of working just 40 hours a week.
To give you an idea of other options out there, I work in an intense commercial enviroment in the city. My work hours are typically 9-9, 5 days a week. The longest I have worked is a 23 hour day, followed by 4 hours of sleep, then a 12 hour day on top. (and we don't have the luxury of planned rosters, you don't know how you daya will pan out until it is over).
On top of that you have to deal with intense commercial pressure, messed-up office politics, and the fact that in the 12 months you have been here 20% of your colleagues have been fired for not making the grade. And you could be next.
Oh yes, and the pay per hour is crap. This is after studying hard for 3 years in an intense university course (and no, I did not study at Wigan Polytechnic!)
I tell my friends at work I am saving up to be a pilot and they all envy me, even if the pay is not as great and you get treated like a child. Still, it is a dream job, not what is used to be, but can you think of anything else you would rather do? 80 hours of flying a month for an average starting salary of £25k, probably averaging £60k a year over the course of a career? I would think that is worth the investment in the flying course, maybe not today, but in the next 5 years definitely.
The grass is pretty brown on this side.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 30W
Age: 40
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
****ing brilliant,
. Did your FTO tell you this?
. Did your FTO tell you this?
We all know every airline is crying out for 200 hour pilots to replace their current gash crews with their high standards and £80 0000 loans?
Nothing more I can really say to that other than I hope for your sake you have got a chip the same size on the other shoulder!For those who love flying and are working hard to get started in this great career, keep going its well worth it. As previously mentioned you get to spend your days at work watching the world go by flying aircraft into some cool airports and some busy airports and doing some great flying, see some fantastic weather and sometimes some fantastic beaches and intersting bars (senior frogs) Its a career that has a huge amount to offer! Just from time to time you have to fly with guys who mona lot for 11hrs a day!
Cabus
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Where its at
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TurboJ, I find your post is pretty much in keeping with many others who take the opposite view from Jabbejokker.
First there's an explanation of something you enjoy in the job, you mention enjoying doing the visual into Nice.
Secondly comes the advice to be humble, "be grateful you have a job".
And last, the resentment and indignation (paraphasing here..) - sod off if you don't like what we do, and let someone else in who's more like us.
Jabbejokker doesn't think this is what's for him, what suits him. That's fair enough wouldn't you say? If you offered somebody something you eat or drink that they didn't like and they declined it, you wouldn't take offense and tell them to get lost would you?
If I were to reply in a similar manner, perhaps suggesting that your trip to Nice was pretty much nothing more than you could've got from a computer game then walking round a car park for a couple of minutes, that wouldn't be very flattering would it?
That the best office in the world would've been one where your punters ended up going, to then enjoy a 35 hour working week, paid lunches, two weeks guaranteed holiday at the height of summer - enjoying watching you soar off into the azure, eating cack out of a foil packet, a privilege you have to fight to keep, doing 50% more work than they, in a high altitude, dry and carcinogenic environment - and that all summer, because surprise, there's no leave when you want it - and no, there's nothing we can do about it.
Perhaps that you're the one who's grateful he has a job because it's frightening to think what an out of work pilot would do, or have to do to retrain. Perhaps that even though you're not naked, JJ is pointing out that the Emperors clothes aren't as fine as he might think had he looked in other shops. Perhaps that if you're happy in a job that is largely unstimulating, although occasionally not so, doing things by rote with personal initiative limited to how many times you take a piss on the turnround or whether you take mercy on the poor sod next to you and not brief him for the 10th time this week on his home airfield - then perhaps you're the limited one and don't like it that Jabbejokker might have highlighted some uncomfortable truths?
First there's an explanation of something you enjoy in the job, you mention enjoying doing the visual into Nice.
Secondly comes the advice to be humble, "be grateful you have a job".
And last, the resentment and indignation (paraphasing here..) - sod off if you don't like what we do, and let someone else in who's more like us.
Jabbejokker doesn't think this is what's for him, what suits him. That's fair enough wouldn't you say? If you offered somebody something you eat or drink that they didn't like and they declined it, you wouldn't take offense and tell them to get lost would you?
If I were to reply in a similar manner, perhaps suggesting that your trip to Nice was pretty much nothing more than you could've got from a computer game then walking round a car park for a couple of minutes, that wouldn't be very flattering would it?
That the best office in the world would've been one where your punters ended up going, to then enjoy a 35 hour working week, paid lunches, two weeks guaranteed holiday at the height of summer - enjoying watching you soar off into the azure, eating cack out of a foil packet, a privilege you have to fight to keep, doing 50% more work than they, in a high altitude, dry and carcinogenic environment - and that all summer, because surprise, there's no leave when you want it - and no, there's nothing we can do about it.
Perhaps that you're the one who's grateful he has a job because it's frightening to think what an out of work pilot would do, or have to do to retrain. Perhaps that even though you're not naked, JJ is pointing out that the Emperors clothes aren't as fine as he might think had he looked in other shops. Perhaps that if you're happy in a job that is largely unstimulating, although occasionally not so, doing things by rote with personal initiative limited to how many times you take a piss on the turnround or whether you take mercy on the poor sod next to you and not brief him for the 10th time this week on his home airfield - then perhaps you're the limited one and don't like it that Jabbejokker might have highlighted some uncomfortable truths?
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That is class!
Alas we have 3 camps.
1) The realists. Largely enjoy the job but realise that bills have to be paid and demand a certain quality of life. Will only put up with so much cr*p before moving onto pastures new.
2) The aeros*xuals. Anything aviation related sets their world on fire. Can be found hanging around flying clubs or lurking at the edge of carparks adjoining airfields on their days off listening into a scanner. Will happily fly for free and believe that the auto pilot and an ILS is the work of the devil.
3) The wannabes. Too inexperienced at this stage to determine whether they will hop into group 1 or 2 after securing their first job. Will never listen to the likes of The Realists.
Alas we have 3 camps.
1) The realists. Largely enjoy the job but realise that bills have to be paid and demand a certain quality of life. Will only put up with so much cr*p before moving onto pastures new.
2) The aeros*xuals. Anything aviation related sets their world on fire. Can be found hanging around flying clubs or lurking at the edge of carparks adjoining airfields on their days off listening into a scanner. Will happily fly for free and believe that the auto pilot and an ILS is the work of the devil.
3) The wannabes. Too inexperienced at this stage to determine whether they will hop into group 1 or 2 after securing their first job. Will never listen to the likes of The Realists.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jabbejokker doesn't think this is what's for him, what suits him. That's fair enough wouldn't you say?
If I were to reply in a similar manner, perhaps suggesting that your trip to Nice was pretty much nothing more than you could've got from a computer game then walking round a car park for a couple of minutes, that wouldn't be very flattering would it?
Perhaps that you're the one who's grateful he has a job because it's frightening to think what an out of work pilot would do, or have to do to retrain.
Perhaps that if you're happy in a job that is largely unstimulating, although occasionally not so, doing things by rote with personal initiative limited to how many times you take a piss on the turnround or whether you take mercy on the poor sod next to you and not brief him for the 10th time this week on his home airfield - then perhaps you're the limited one and don't like it that Jabbejokker might have highlighted some uncomfortable truths?
As I have posted in other threads, I have worked in different jobs, in all weathers, serving an ungrateful master, at great cost to my own personal safety, where the politics and issues are more than whether the company serves you breakfast !
For all the people who moan about flying and the issues in their company, I have yet to hear what alternative careers these people have in mind?
