aerodynamics in MALAGA NOW.. what about?

[adam75]

hi everybody I m considering to go to AERODYNAMCIS in malaga for my MULTI/ IR I have read different posts in this site, but they are all very old 2006.. I really need to know how the school is running now. and in general if the things work as they are supposed to..
please if anybody of y can give some info or BETTETR if has been there recentrly let me know..
thank y in advance

[polohippo]

Aerodynamics

I know of 2 people that have been there. One left after a day because the place is a joke. The instruction in terrible they wouldn't let him land the aircraft.

I know another person that went recently to do the MEP rating, he didn't even do any ASYM and still passed.

As I understand, if you want your licence you WILL get it. However, you may be frowned upon for taking the EASY option and you may not have the skills required when it comes to getting a job.

I have not been there personally but I'm sure there will be someone that can comment.

There are better places, do not go for the cheapest option it will hurt you in the end.

[adam75]

ok so which school would y suggest in spain? I m not looking fot the cheepest one but not even for the most expensive. one. any idea??
I heard that AEROMADRID and AIEMED aro both going down. I have a friend that is now in airmed and he told me NOT TO COME!!
I really don t know what to do... I also looked ADENTIA but they did not reply when I wrote..

[GBB]

If the school doesnt bother to replay to your e-mail within a day or two dont even bother going there. (unless theres public holiday or weekend)
I will be doing IR/ME soon my self and the initial plan was to go to the US and convert but decied to find some info about some schools across JAA land and maybe find some good deals.
I wanted to find out about JAA IR/ME and conversion to one.
I sent e-mail a month-2 months back to schools in Croatia, Greece, Czech Republic, Lithuania, Poland and I think there was one in Spain and maybe Slovakia as well...
The best part is that NONE of them bother to answer me back.
I dont know, maybe some of them are "down" already but the websites are still there... If this is their customer service and care from day one, I can imagine how things would look like later on...

[ClintonBaptiste]

Have you tried Gestair/American Flyers in Madrid?

[adam75]

hi i m considering gestair. but I don t know anybody whi has been there.. and I did not know american flyers.? can y give me the website.? i only find the american school..

[Privatairdreaming]

Hello everyone,

I was out in Malaga a few weeks ago to renew my ME/IR and they organised it very well. I dont fully understand why people slag off aerodynamics, me and my friend went out there for out ME/IR and he is now flying for BMI and no one has said that he took the "easy" way out. I will be starting a 737NG TR within the next month and so far my IR precedures have been fine. I have even flown the sim better than a guy who trained for his IR at Mulitflight.
I did plenty of asymetric flying while out there and I know of plenty of people that have failed their flight tests out there.

the choice is yours but for those people who have never been there and think they are something special because they did their IR in the UK thats fine but dont bitch about other places.

[Rfortes]

Anyone

Anyone interested in creating a syndicate to go and do ME + IR ME conversion (From SE IR to an ME IR)?
If we approach an FTO to negotiate collectively in terms of price and conditions, than we may have a better deal…

I planning to do my around July/September.
Must be JAR approved, anywhere in Europe.
Ideally on DA42 (G1000) and FTO with FNTP II

PM if you are interested

RF

[Pace152]

Hi Adam75

I´m at Aerodynamics now and I´ve got to say so far I´ve been very impressed with the place. The setup with the simulator is really good and the standard of instruction has also been really good.

I dont have any problems with the place - yet

[BigGrecian]

the standard of instruction has also been really good.

Hhahahahahahha - what an absolute joke - some of the worst standards I have ever seen come from this school and Egnita in Greece

[GBB]

BigGrecian,

I dont know, you might of been very lucky to train at so many schools. You mentioned two and there must be at least few more that you can compare with these two.
Maybe you should tell us something more about Aerodynamics since you know so much about them? But if your info is from X friend that heard from his friend and so on... I dont think anybody here would wanna know about it.

[ClintonBaptiste]

RFortes


In response to you looking to do your IR in a DA42, I have some reservations. The flight school I currently work at has a DA42, but we don't predominantly use it for the IR, the main reason being that it is too easy to use.

I would recommend flying an older, steam powered type aircraft. Like the Seneca, Duchess, Cessna 310, even the GA7 Cougar. If you pass your ME/IR, then have a checkride at an air taxi company or regional airline - you will probably not be flying a glass cockpit aircraft and may find the simride/flight check very difficult indeed.

The DA42 even has a button to perform the ground check! No moving the prop controls yourself, a bloody computer does it. Horrible control stick in between your legs (wouldn't want a heavy landing!)Autopilot too, why bother teaching students to trim if you're going to use the autopilot. Plus having all that power in the older aircraft is much more fun, especially when the turbo's kick in. One of our senecas has almost 250HP in each engine and in assymetric flight has no problem maintaining altitude and even has a decent rate of climb.

I fly the G1000 C172 and the basic cessna too. The G1000 is fantastic for learning IFR flying and obviously like the DA42 is a nice new reliable plane, but for me I prefer the older planes, particularly the twins.

It's your choice, regardless of where you go and what you fly, I hope you have a great time and manage to find the right school for you.

All the best

[BigGrecian]

Made my opinions clear here - which summarises Spanish Training very well.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/331098-truth-about-spanish-irs.html

For the record I work at a UK registered JAA school and conduct CPL training. Quite often I come across students who have a Spanish IR who then have to complete 15 hours on the CPL instead of 25.
Shocking is the only word which covers the standard of training - nearly every student requires considerable remedial instrument training - just to pass CPL skills tests - and would never pass a UK IR.
Multiple students stating they have never done limited panel, unusual attitudes.
The testing procedure is atrocious - with some stating they never even flew a precision approach for their test, and would land visually. Approaches made up in flight. Skills Tests lasting less than an hour. I have started keeping track of how many students describe their test as a "joke"

Subsequently quite a few students spend more on remedial training than they do by getting an IR in Spain.

[LH2]

Oh well, here we go again

Made my opinions clear here - which summarises Spanish Training very well.

Sorry I must have missed the specific post in the thread you linked where you made your opinions clear, or where you summarise anything. All I can see is you've heard some Chinese whispers. Perhaps you would care to enlighten us regarding your factual experience training and flying in Spain?

The only reason I'm jumping in is because with the hindsight of experience (I trained in Spain, I fly here reasonably often, I know a few people in the training establishment, and have a number of pilot friends operating here), I really fail to correlate what I read here with what I see out there.

My only guess is that perhaps people who write here are basing their views on cultural misunderstandings or prejudice because from my point of view as a fluent Spanish speaker and long time resident, I have found them to be a knowledgeable and competent bunch as a whole.

Now, are there bad pilots and schools that take the mickey? Oh yes, of course there are--in my experience, they're not short of arrogant idiots, and I wouldn't go (again) anywhere near Cuatro Vientos (Madrid is a ****hole anyway--with apologies to any Madrileños reading this ) and the same can be said of at least some of the schools which operate in Sabadell (plus Barcelona is yet another ****hole--with apologies, etc.) On top of that I also have a few other dislikes that don't really concern the public in this forum, but all in all, I feel lucky to have made the decision to train and fly here, and especially as opposed to doing more training in the UK, where I haven't really learned anything much.

However, whereas my instrument and commercial training was purely a self-improvement exercise for me (I just wanted to be a better pilot, I don't care about flying commercially) and therefore I had reason to look for quality training that gave me a sense of satisfaction, if you on the other hand are simply looking for the bits of paper that entitle you to join the queue of flying wannabees, then I suggest you just train wherever it's more convenient for you, because as any line pilot will tell you (even in Pprune), it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference where and how you got your qualifications. I suggest instead you may want to spend your time and energy in getting to know the right people who can give you a job once you've got a licence of some description.

polohippo,

I understand that you work for a flying school in Southern Spain, is that correct? Perhaps you would want to state which one (and there are only two big-ish schools in the South) so people know where you're coming from. FWIW, I met an ex-instructor from Aerodynamics a few months ago who is now working at a different FTO, and I asked him for his opinion of his former workplace--he was full of positive things to say and had great respect for his ex-colleagues and management.

Anyhow, all the above based solely on my personal, first-hand, and (dare I say) culturally privileged experience. I hope it helps anyone.

Now going back to the subject of this thread, I will neither recommend nor advise against Aerodynamics, as I haven't been there for over a year now, and we all know how things can change (either way) in that space of time, especially in today's uncertain environment. I'd rather let speak those who are there now and anyone who has visited recently and decided against attending their courses.

[polohippo]

LH2

Yes I do work in southern Spain and I do not wish to state the school that I work for. The experiences that I talk about come from one of my colleagues who stated that having NO multi engine experience at all was put in the sim on his first day there without any briefing at all. In the climb out the instructor failed an engine on him and then started laughing at him when it all went horribly wrong.

The other was one of my students who went there to do his multi engine rating, he told me that there was no ASYM done at all. The entine course was spent flying between Malaga and La Aquaxia to do circuits and his instructor just told him how to deal with an engine failure without actually practicing one.

This is what these people told me directly. Based on this information and my first hand experience which includes the selection of a suitable school for my Multi Engine Instructor Rating, where one of the schools that I looked at in Spain told me that we could get it bashed out in a weekend (It subsequently took the best part of 2 weeks part time to complete it in the minimum hours) and the fact that I recently spoke with someone about an instructors job at another school outside of Spain. They told me in no uncertain terms that they did not hire people who had trained in Spain (which I did not) due to the poor quality of instruction received.

So this is just my opinion based on the information that I have received, maybe these were isolated cases and maybe not.

I think that it is so hard to find the best way to do your training, if I could go back to the start knowing what I know now there would be a million things that I would have done differently. In the end however, it has got me on the way to where I want to be and I've had a damn good time along the way, plus I don't have to sit in an office anymore selling mortgages and insurance which is a bonus!!

To the original poster: Good luck in whatever you choose and I hope you end up having as much fun as I do!!

[LH2]

Polo,

thanks for your reply. So to summarise, I understand that you have no first-hand experience of this particular school?


So far we've got two people who claim to be there or have been recently:

Privatairdreaming
Pace152

And two people who are instructors at other schools, who do not claim to have any direct, recent or past, experience with Aerodynamics:

polohippo
BigGrecian

Largely the same pattern repeats itself in other similar threads.


By way of example of why second-hand information is unreliable:

one of my colleagues who stated that having NO multi engine experience at all was put in the sim on his first day there without any briefing at all. In the climb out the instructor failed an engine on him and then started laughing at him when it all went horribly wrong.

The first sim "session" is just to get a feel for the sim itself, there is no instruction involved other than explain where things are in the sim and how it differs from the real aircraft (as it says in the training curriculum). Before this, your colleague would have had a full day's (or was it two days?) ME theory briefing and sat a quick exam, and before even that, likely he would have passed 14 ATPL subjects, including those dealing with ME flight and performance?

To me what this illustrates (whether it applies to your colleague or not) is that some people: a) do not pay attention, and b) want to be spoon-fed everything. That will not work in places such as Spain (and btw even less so in France) where you are expected to put your own effort into things.

So to repeat my earlier point to the original poster: just like when choosing any other service provider, you really need to go there yourself or at least have someone you know personally who has been there. I didn't follow my own advice for my first choice of IR school (Aerofan in LECU), and three days latter I was out of there like a bat out of hell.

I think that it is so hard to find the best way to do your training

I agree with that. I was fortunate enough not to have any kind of pressure on me (financial, time, or otherwise) so I could choose whichever route suited me best, and backtrack if I felt I had made a mistake (see above) but even so it wasn't easy to make those decisions.

To the original poster: Good luck in whatever you choose and I hope you end up having as much fun as I do

Seconded.

[selfin]

LH2,

Originally Posted by polohippo

Yes I do work in southern Spain and I do not wish to state the school that I work for.

Originally Posted by LH2

[T]o summarise, I understand that you have no first-hand experience of this particular school?

Are we on a witch hunt? Next you'll demand we all sign affidavits to support our statements on PPRuNe. Have some respect for his desire to remain anonymous. Or is that not how business is done in Spain?

------------------------

Originally Posted by polohippo

The experiences that I talk about come from one of my colleagues who stated that having NO multi engine experience at all was put in the sim on his first day there without any briefing at all. In the climb out the instructor failed an engine on him and then started laughing at him when it all went horribly wrong.

Originally Posted by LH2

The first sim "session" is just to get a feel for the sim itself, there is no instruction involved other than explain where things are in the sim and how it differs from the real aircraft (as it says in the training curriculum). Before this, your colleague would have had a full day's (or was it two days?) ME theory briefing and sat a quick exam, and before even that, likely he would have passed 14 ATPL subjects, including those dealing with ME flight and performance?

To me what this illustrates (whether it applies to your colleague or not) is that some people: a) do not pay attention, and b) want to be spoon-fed everything. That will not work in places such as Spain (and btw even less so in France) where you are expected to put your own effort into things.

First off the ATPL question-bank ceremonies do not effectively inculcate the depth of theoretical knowledge mandated under the JAR learning objectives (some of which do cover important topics ). Secondly the theoretical knowledge germane to asymmetric flight at the ATPL TKC level is unlikely to be so remembered as to expunge a comprehensive revision during an ME Class Rating course. I used to read on this forum comments about the PPL being a 'licence to learn', and I should like to offer up the 2nd postulate of PPRuNe's 'professional licensing' threads: the ATPL TKC is an introductory overview to aeroplane operations and, even if coupled with such a comprehensive ME ASYM ground lecture, does not obviate the critical requirement of in-flight practice. Have you read the comments above about students being given no in-flight ASYM practice?

I found, during an attendance last year, the level of theoretical knowledge held by some Aerodynamics instructors to be dangerously inadequate notwithstanding the assumption that an ATPL TKC would have provided a grounding. It is not surprising to me in the slightest that polohippo's colleague was given no pre-'flight' briefing.

The issue raised by polohippo, which you LH2 have ignored, is one of his colleague having been childishly mocked by an Aerodynamics instructor following a failure to demonstrate a level of non-existent practical skill. To propose such pusillanimous derision is acceptable is both insanely foolish and unpropitious to the task of cultivating the requisite skill-set. To propose that a failure to execute ME Class engine failure procedures properly, having never previously been guided through one, is indicative of an inattentive candidate who harbours desires to be spoon-fed, in my opinion, betrays a pathological problem on your part in recognising the very necessity for flight training.

------------------------

All but one of the unfavourable criticisms in this thread directed towards Aerodynamics are, so far as my personal experience goes, valid and, more to the point, only the tip of the iceberg. BigGrecian has commented upon second-hand information regarding Aerodyanmics' lack of partial panel training. This point is at variance both from my experience and from that relayed by others (who had had ME/IR training with UK FTOs), in which respect Aerodyanmics had gone the extra mile in providing, if anything, instrument and equipment failure scenarios too frequently.

[LH2]

Selfin

thank you for your contribution.

Have some respect for his desire to remain anonymous

Not quite sure where you're coming from with that one, as I haven't insisted on that point. I thought I might have known him, hence why I asked. But respectfully, I don't think that's any of your business anyway.

First off the ATPL question-bank ceremonies do not effectively inculcate the depth of theoretical knowledge mandated under the JAR learning objectives

I entirely agree. However, that does not excuse one from attempting to comply with those objectives as closely as possible. Having said that, with regards specifically to multi-engine flight ISTR my ATPL course material covered the subject in reasonable detail.

asymmetric flight at the ATPL TKC level is unlikely to be so remembered

...which is why one would do a little revision before going on a ME rating course? Same applies to ATPL notes as regards IFR flight, btw.

as to expunge a comprehensive revision during an ME Class Rating course

The ME theory part is of course a compulsory part of the course and is welcome, although there shouldn't be any surprises there if one has done his homework before starting the course.

The good thing about revision is that it doesn't cost you any money so that's one thing you can do as much as you like, which is why I couldn't understand why you would have people showing up for the course who had no idea how an OBI works. Since a pass in IR or ATPL theory is a prerequisite for attending the course, I do not think that is the time or the place to teach you what you should already know (regardless of how inadequate the examination process might be).

Have you read the comments above about students being given no in-flight ASYM practice?

Yes. Have you witnessed any such occurrences? I haven't and generally I don't comment on hearsay.

The issue raised by polohippo, which you LH2 have ignored, is one of his colleague having been childishly mocked by an Aerodynamics instructor following a failure to demonstrate a level of non-existent practical skill.

If I have ignored it, why did I then dedicate three paragraphs to it, even though I just said I don't generally comment on hearsay?

I am not sure if you have read my post and paid any attention to it before replying, but if you have, you will notice that I introduced that as an example of how second-hand information can be unreliable. I mentioned that the first session is purely sim familiarisation (as I presume you know) and therefore he wasn't being asked to demonstrate anything, it's by and large simply one hour of coming to grips with the bloody thing (I found it a bit over-sensitive) and having fun. If the instructor decides to fail an engine on you during this session, I think that's actually quite good, as it gives you an idea what will happen and what the result will be if you don't know your stuff. I would expect that to be a "ah, so that's why I'm doing this course!" moment. The other poster didn't say his colleague was "mocked", simply that the instructor started laughing--I don't know about you, but I found some crashes (in the sim) to be spectacularly funny and I remember myself and my partner having had a few good laughs (not that we crashed much ).

You see? Let's say for argument's sake, this guy had no idea what he was sitting in the sim for (his fault, it's explained to you, it's written in the syllabus, and if you still don't know you would ask), so he totally misinterprets the situation he is in, gets his pride hurt, goes and tells his mate, his mate posts in PPruNe, somebody else changes "laughed" to "childishly mocked"... and that's how rumours start.

But, since neither you or I or the previous poster have been there, I shall refrain from making any more remarks on it. And of course neither should my comments be taken to reflect on the protagonists of this anecdote, I was just using the story to illustrate a point.

All but one of the unfavourable criticisms in this thread directed towards Aerodynamics are, so far as my personal experience goes, valid and, more to the point, only the tip of the iceberg.

Ok, so you have been there, so how about you relate your own experience and impressions for the benefit of the original poster, since that's what he asked? When did you visit, what did you do there, what were you looking for, how were your expectations (un)met? what you thought of the place, did you like it, did you not like it, etc.? That sort of information might be useful to the OP, don't you agree?

Aerodyanmics had gone the extra mile in providing, if anything, instrument and equipment failure scenarios too frequently

Through sheer stupidity once I ended up in thick soup over an unfamiliar part of Germany in a 172 with a busted suction pump (no AI and no DI) and I made it out of it with no personnel or material loss (well, my pride hurt quite a bit) so yes, the partial panel stuff they teach you actually works

Anyhow, no real axe to grind, I just think that much (not necessarily all) of the criticism levelled here is unfair as it's based on a combination of second-hand information, prejudice, and ignorance. I read through it and I know in hindsight that it wouldn't have helped me form an accurate impression if I had read it when I was at that stage in my training. Not that I would have relied on anything written here anyway, mind you.

[Pace152]

Big Grecian you may well laugh at what I have said about Aerodynamics but you´re attitude really gets on my nerves.

I´ve been to various flight training centres in the US, UK and now Spain and I´ve got to say (as much as it pains me because I´m from the UK) that the overall setups of the places I´ve seen put the US and Aerodynamics in Spain ahead of 90% of the places in the UK.

Just to make the point first that I do recognise that there is a difference between the look of a place and the quality of training it provides but in my opinion if a FTO has a good setup it makes you feel more professional and helps you get into a more professional state of mind for the training.

Onto the quality of training. I have heard this from the very begginning that if you train in America or Spain you will be recieving a standard of training that is below that in the UK, to which I say rubbish.

It does of course depend on the particular FTO that you go to, I´m sure there are some places in the UK that provide bad standards of training as I´m sure there also is in the US and Spain (the place that I trained at in the UK had very good standards).

All I know is that I have been very impressed with Aerodynamics both in their setup and in the knowledge and ability of the instructors that they employ.

We pay alot of money for our training so why would you want to spend more than you have to by taking months and months doing the training in the UK due to our constantly rubbish weather, when you can get a good standard of training in a country that has both better weather and is in general more favourable to General Aviation.

If you´re going to be flying in UK airspace it is good to do at least part of your training in the UK as every country has its own ways of doing things which it is good to get to know but IR flight is IR flight wherever you are.

To sum up, in my opinion Aerodynamics provides a good standard of training, has a very good setup and is a good place to do the IR.

So there you go

[Flyingkar]

I have passed my MEP/IR-ME in Aerodynamics last week. They told me it would take 5 weeks and cost me €13390. It took me 4 weeks and I paid €13390. All good except that some instructors are not very motivated.Also 2 of their 3 BE76 are broken down for a while.
Cheers