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Actual IFR TRAINING

Old 20th Apr 2009, 16:58
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Actual IFR TRAINING

I was wondering why flight instructors seems relactant to take students who are about to do an IFR RIDE up in actual IFR conditions. I have been up once with my instructor in cloud which was based at about 4 000 ft. I have tried to arange to go up again but it seems like there is always something holding us back. Would like to hear what every one thinks about this subject? I mean what is the point of an IFR Ticket if you have next to no experience in IFR. So what when a person gets their ticket and find themselves in IMC without an instructor is this the time to start learning how it really is?
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 17:15
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I must say during my training we flew in everything and anything , the only time we didnt was when the freezing level was low or the rvr , the majority of my IR was done in IMC , ask them see what they say
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 17:21
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Ifr Training

well when i ask my instructor he seems like he is wiilling but the last 4 times we were supposed to go up it was
1. company limits for wind are 30 kts and wind is forcast 30 kts
2. crosswind component exceeds by 2 kts
3. couldnt get into our base didnt want to go to alternate
4. could maybe get into base if not then alternate but if you were working medevac or something you could try it but flight training probobly better to stay on the ground
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 17:27
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Every company has their own limits which are normally higher than the relevant IFR minima . If they are outside the limits then in all likelihood you wouldnt and shouldnt be going , I see you are in canada, and therefore probably have a lot more issues with the weather than we do , just keep plugging away , you will know what the minima are in they are within then there really is no reason not to go .
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 17:35
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thanks for the advice, I just dont want my first time in the soup shooting an approach down low without an instructor and having no idea what to expect with my only experience being pull the hood up at mins and see a birght sunny day because something tells me thats not what im gonna see when i brake out and that might not be all that safe. would like to get some experience out of the rating not just a piece of paper that I wont be comfortable using in real life.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 18:44
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Ifr Training

Anyone else have any stories on the subject??? I would like to know how the training went for everyone else???
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 19:00
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Maybe they are afraid of going beyond the rules. Those are the rules and they must adapt them... On the other hand, how are you suppose to gain expierence in IFR if you do not have chances to do it? Hopefully, you will get the perfect weather soon It's getting colder and colder in Poland and the sun is slowly disappearing so you may get our weather soon
Good luck and be patient!
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 19:00
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Depending on the airspace category and how busy it is there might be separation issues. If you are under the hood with the instructor looking out you only need VFR separation whereas if you go into the clag the controller has to apply IFR separation which might not be so simple if there is a fair bit of traffic about.

For this, and other reasons, my IR instructor scheduled our flights for very early morning and late at night.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 19:16
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As long as weather was above minima and aircraft was fully servicable, we would dispatch. My IRT was completed close to Single Pilot CAT I ILS minima in terms of cloud base - no screens required and obviously never became visual on the NPA so genine MAP. Actually made it all quite fun!
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 19:27
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I envy your experience and hope that I am able to get similar training with my instructor before my ride although sadly i dont think that I should hold my breath. It seems more and more obvious to me that their is either a written company rule or unwritten that if weather is below VFR no flight training of any kind. Makes me wonder how much that IFR ticket is going to be really worth in the end.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 19:45
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Bare in mind that most light training aircraft have pretty limited anti icing kit. The instructor may be capable, but the aircraft may not be. On a warm day you can fly in cloud to your hearts content, but if the freezing level is low and you find yourself picking up ice in a light aircraft you are seriously in the shit.

So, its not good airmanship to plan to fly IMC in an aircraft with little or no anti/de icing. Better stick with the screens unless you are in a twin, at the least.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 19:57
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well the flights that have been a no go for me at least have all been in a twin and icing was not an issue. believe me if icing was an issue i may have been disappointed but i would definetely not be pushing to make the flight a go. My whole reason for wanting to go IMC is so i know what mistakes not to make in real life safety number is always number 1.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 20:47
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While I agree flying in actualy IMC during your training can be fun I honestly don't see that much of a gain over wearing a hood in VMC conditions.

I mean, what do you guys expect to learn from actual IFR? You're in the clouds, don't see any references, you fly by instruments only.

Same with the hood, you can't see out, but only see the white plastic of your hood. Not more to see in actual either.

You fly an approach in IMC, either you are visual at the MDA / DH or not. If not, off to the alternate.

Same with the hood, either the instructor takes it off and you land, or you fly the MAP and go to another airport.

Sorry if I fail to understand the learning part here, I agree flying in actual makes it more fun though.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 20:56
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maybe if I give you my point of view. This is a point of view that seems to be shared by some of the pilots who already fly ifr.

flying under the hood you fly the approach and you fly by instruments fine. if your instructor says go missed then you go missed so far I agree with you.

However if your instructor says to go visual you pull the hood and you see a nice bright cloudless sunny day and you land.

even though I have almost no experience in actual IMC but I think that when you break out or are on the virge of breaking out and looking for those two or three runway lights the experience is likely to be very different.

PS if you were a pax and the guy flying you IFR had a newly issued ticket and his experience was under the hood would you feel comfortable being on that aircraft with your family and shoot an approach to mins???

Anymore advice you may have i would love to hear
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 21:45
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It shouldn't really matter if you're flying in IMC or VMC with the hood up, you should be looking at the instruments

In the real world when you have an IFR departure out of a major airport it doesn't matter if it's VMC or IMC because you have to fly the instruments. It may be a bright sunny day but you still have to look down and follow those needles.

From a safety point of view I can understand why instructors want VMC days, often they are flying in an out of controlled airspace, in and out of control zones and climbing and descending into IMC, not always having a full Radar control service..

Will flying actual IMC for a IR student benefit them? Well personally I don't it will, flying with a hood up is just as good. Having said that, I've flown into IMC in the real world and hit turbulence so bad that we couldn't read the instruments from being bounced around, that will teach you something and no hood can give you that experience.
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Old 20th Apr 2009, 22:08
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I was lucky enough that through the instrument part of my CPL and during my IR, my instructors would go fly as long as the cloud base and x-wind were above minima.

I found it to be really beneficial to be flying without the screens up, bouncing around in the clouds whilst still not being able to see anything. Certainly gave me a taste of how it would be in real life.

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Old 20th Apr 2009, 22:22
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I hope that i am able to have the same experience before I do my ride. anyone else have any good IFR TRAINING stories/experiences I would love to hear them.
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 05:24
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When I was training for my initial rating, my IFR instructor had to take over manually in cloud when the autopilot gave up on us and wasn't holding course. It was just white outside and I thought it was routine just to fly on instruments. Suddenly all the dials on the panel seemed to jump out and start rotating in front of me in mid-air. I fought the illusion and managed to regain focus after about 10 seconds.

After the flight, I thanked my instructor for doing all the hard work for me when I should really be the one flying the aeroplane. I then told him about the illusion I experienced and asked him how he got used to flying in cloud. To my surprise he told me after he obtained his initial IFR, it took him three years of frequent practice to get comfortable to flying in IMC - and he is a leading (if not the leading) IFR instructor in the country.
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 08:12
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2 Reverse Flight:
You were using autopilot for initial IFR training?How does that work?
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Old 21st Apr 2009, 08:56
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It shouldn't really matter if you're flying in IMC or VMC with the hood up, you should be looking at the instruments
No you shouldn't you should be seeing and avoiding. Just because you are IFR doesn't mean you should ignore the basics.

Just look at the airprox reports of the amount of aircraft who are IFR reporting when they are flying procedures in class G airspace with no protection in VMC. Then shit themselves when an aircraft gets close. Heads down make sure the needles are right.......... Hells bells where did that come from.

I have got to within 30ft of a microlight before in CAVOK flying vectors under a RAS or a deconfliction service as now is. It painted on the Radar twice in 30 mins for 2 seconds each time according to the investigation.

If it is VMC you are duty bound to lookout.
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