New Starter - Bristol Aviation??

[Burger81]

Hello to all,

I have been curiosuly looking through lots of different threads to cement my decision on 1) whether to continue in my pursuit of realising my ambition to train to become a pilot at personal expense, 2) who to train with and 3) what route to take.
I recently failed Phase 4 (Fixed 737 Sim assessment) in the CTC Wings Cadet selection. I have however been offered a place on their iCP self financed route. This 1 of a number of offers i have given onto a self financed program where I have been through a testing and interview process.

One of my serious considerations at the minute is Bristol Aviation, who state they can get me to frozen ATPL in just over a year with the majority of training carried out in Port Alfred, South Africa. I haven't heard too much about Bristol Aviation, what I have heard though has been pretty positive.

Has ayone out there done their training with Bristol Aviation and if so, whats your views?

Has anyone else, got any solid information about the training and flying Bristol offer?

Finally, any other advice and information to help me make a sensible head strong decision would be greatly appreciated

[Aerospace101]

Advice: dont spend a penny on flight training until atleast 2010. Although get the ground school out the way if you want to do something towards your training.

[ali1986]

why not spend a little time in a 737 sim, say with virtual aviation of something who may be able to help you get throught the 737 sim check if you decide to try again with ctc.

Flight Simulator Training - Simulator Assessment Preparation - Virtual Aviation

[Ronnie1982]

Hello Burger

I’m in a similar situation. I decided not to apply to CTC, (at least their cadet scheme) as there seem to be literally 100s of cadets in the pipeline ahead and CTC can’t place them all; I didn’t fancy spending 75 grand and finding myself at the bottom of their pile. Therefore, I decided to go self funded. I’ve been looking at all the ‘full-time’ courses as well as modular, and have decided that modular is not for me.

That leaves OAA, CTC (their iCP), FTE, Bristol Aviation and Cabair on my list.

I discounted the last one as the reputation is not as good as the others. However, I can’t really find much to differentiate CTC, Bristol, FTE and Oxford; lots of personal bias (comments like ‘I trained there therefore it must be best’). I have found some negative about Oxford in terms of what they promise, and some about CTC in terms of lack of resources; easy to overlook if you are on a sponsored scheme leading to a job, but no so if you are paying your own way. However, my overall impression is that all do a good enough job and the differences are minor and subjective.

Bristol is very attractive financially if you compare it with the others on a like-for-like basis. However, like you I could find out less about them than the others. Therefore, I contacted them direct ([email protected], 01275 467576). This is what I discovered in talking with Bruce, searching on PPRuNe, and talking to ex-students:

·They have been around for decades trading as Bristol Flying Centre, and have an A1 reputation as an IR centre.
·The FTO was bought last year by an Irish plc and re-branded as Bristol Aviation, but is basically still the same.
·Bristol Aviation also took over Sigmar Aviation Training who are a small Irish FTO, and they deliver their Jet Pilot Programme for Sigmar Aviation Training.
·Bristol Aviation also took over Sigmar Aviation who are a flight crew recruitment agency.
·The Professional Pilot Programme is new, but essentially it is the same training as the existing Jet Pilot Programme.
·Bruce can put you in touch with past students of both Bristol Flying Centre and the Jet Pilot Programme, who give very good testimonials; both also come out very positively if you do a PPRuNe search; the training is rated A1, and Port Alfred and Bristol are rated very highly as places to train. There was one critisism about Sigmar Aviation Training and promises they have made to people about placement with CityJet. However, in fairness they all pre-date Bristol Aviation.
·The whole shebang is run by a guy who used to run Oxford and was the founder of CTC, so he has a very good track record.

The approach I took was that every FTO will tell you they are great, but I wanted hard evidence to support that. Bruce seems a pretty straight guy; no hard sell, he was very willing to provide past student contacts, and he invited me down to Bristol to have a look. I must say I’m pretty convinced now; seems at least as good as the other big FTOs, and comes with a 10 grand plus cost saving.

See you in South Africa!

[scott_cardiff]

Hi Burger

I am in a similar situation as you. I am 19 and currently in Retail Management full time after leaving school last year. Have wanted to be a commercial pilot all my life and will do whatever it takes to get myself the role of FO. Had a few flying lessons here and there at Cardiff when time and money allows but nothing serious.

I have now made the decision that it is time to make the move, leave full time work so I won't get bogged down with it and start the ball rolling to get my dream!!

However, currently I am debating on whether to start my training now or wait until the industry picks up. I have researched the big 4 FTO's, OAT; Cabair; FTE and CTC and have booked myself onto a seminar at EPTA Bournemouth this coming Saturday.

Only over the past few weeks have I become aware of Bristol Aviation and I must say it seems very appealing based on what I have read on here and seen on their website. As you have done 'Ronnie1982', I am going to contact the school directly and possibly arrange a visit to see just how it is there. Even better, it is only just across the bridge from me as I am living in Cardiff, so not a great commute

I think the best option to us wannabees at present is to get the ATPL ground school done and dusted and then commence flight training when we are sure the industry is on a rise....

Scott

[Burger81]

Aerospace101,

Thanks for the advise. I am willing to take on board all advice given on here, but please can you tell me what you base your advise on.

Thanks

[Burger81]

Ronnie1982,

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I have already spoken in some detail with Bruce Bembridge and have actually met him personally. He certainly does come across as a decent guy with no hard sell and definitely very helpful. I also agree that the website and other information i have got, albeit not a huge amount about Bristol Aviation has all been pretty good and with the much cheaper cost is looking like my best option. Obviously, with the industry as it is right now, the last thing i want is to fork out that huge amount of money, only end up on the pile of negative, bitter wannabes that come on here for their daily moan! Timing is the key here. Aerospace101 has advised that 2010 is the magic number, where he gets this from I am not sure, but the way i see it is, if i start my training earlyish next year, its gonna be into 2010 before i am even close to start finding employment, so that would work out right..... I hope

[Prophead]

Guys, get your PPL first and then do your hour building over the next couple of years. I dont think you could start your ATPL studies until you have your PPL anyway.

Just concentrate on becoming a pilot first and think about being an airline pilot later on when the industry picks up. You will get much more benefit from your hour building if you take your time, fly a few different aircraft and make some decent trips into Europe, rather than just getting it all out the way in a few weeks in one aircraft. This will only make you a better pilot.

The hour building is IMHO one of the most important aspects of flight training and is where you learn to be 'in command'. It is also the part which is most overlooked by people as just being an obsticle to get out the way as quickly and cheaply as possible.

What is the point of having a fresh fATPL with 250 hours if there are no jobs and lots of experienced pilots looking for work. If you have your PPL some decent hours (Dont just stop when you get to 100) the exams out of the way and some money saved then when the industry does pick up your ready to go. A CPL/IR will not take too long and your not going to miss out on anything. You will however have saved money by not having to keep current and be fresh for your sim sessions when you start getting interviews.

Get a PPL, Get a cheap share, get on with the exams and most importantly enjoy the flying.

[scott_cardiff]

Prophead

Thanks for the advice. I was unsure of whether to do my PPL independantly before enrolling on ATPL studies or not.

I suppose as you said, if the industry is unstable at the moment then do the PPL and enjoy the 'real' flying in the mean time whilst hours building.

I'm not to sure if you can start your ATPL ground studies without a PPL or not, I will look into it.

Looks as if I'll be making a visit to Cardiff soon

Scott

[fabiensf]

does anyone know whether port alfred is a safe place to live in?

[Dick_Dasterdly]

safe as a nuns knickers!

[Burger81]

Prophead.

Would you advise against doing the integrated training and if the industry still quiet by the time i'm finished, then doing additional hour building with a local flying club, or possibly para jumps etc? I have seen quite a few people on here advising that route! That way, the minute the industry even looks like picking up, i'm there banging on airline doors!!

[bkehoe]

I felt safer in Port Alfred than in some parts of Ireland even It's a lovely place and a fantastic training location, and the training from 43 is top notch.

[Burger81]

bkehoe,

Always good to know its gonna be safe. How long ago did you do your training there? Was it through Bristol Aviaition? Have you got a job yet or still training?

[Prophead]

I would say (and this is only my opinion) that if you have the cash and no work/family commitments then integrated is an option, however you will still be maintaining your ratings until you find work. This isnt just about keeping legal its about being current and fresh to pass a sim check.

However as i said before the hour building is an important part of the training and some integrated schools tend to treat it as an obstacle to be overcome as cheaply and quickly as possible. This can mean doing the hours in one type of aircraft from one location which to be honest, would get pretty boring and defeats the object of the hour building portion of the training.

The thing i find hard to understand is peoples impatience to get this done. I would have thought that people who want to work as a pilot would have a love of flying. The hour building is the time where you can really enjoy the flying. Shares can be picked up cheaply and the club atmosphere is a big change from the average FTO.

One aspect that is very overlooked is the networking opportunities. Lots of airline/freight/bizjet pilots and management can be found around many of the flying clubs. Many people have been given opportunities due to connections and friendships made at the flying club. You will also hear about many other channels that may be open to you. The commercial flying world does not revolve around Pprune.

My advice would be to fly a few different types, get a tailwheel conversion, get yourself down into Europe (If you get a share you will get used to going over to France for lunch) maybe do some aerobatics. Whatever you do dont stick to one type of flying. The hour building is about turning you into an experienced pilot. Imaging passing your driving test and only driving round the same village for days on end.

If the airlines were recruiting like mad then you might want to get your IR/MCC etc done now but at this time i would advise against it. In the same time and less money than it would take to do an integrated course you could have a CPL IMC ME Maybe even an IR and be logging instrument & twin time on flights into Europe. This is the kind of thing that looks good on the CV. This could all be done whilst working and earning.

Whatever you decide, enjoy it

[Burger81]

Prophead,

Realistically and at what rate (hours per week) do you think i could go from zero to CPL/IR going down the modular route? The way i see it, is if it takes over 12 months full time training to get the frozen ATPL, then it would take considerably longer trying to fit in self study along with getting the PPL and then hour building along with a full time job and other distractions. Going down the integrated route, it is 100% focus on the training and study. If at the end of this, there is still a struggle to find employment, then this is when i should surely be looking at the flying club option to keep current and hours building?

I am just trying to look at all my otions, so please do not htink i am being a know it all, beacuase i am far from it I appreciate all the advice given on here

Thanks

[Prophead]

As i said, everyones circumstances are different. My previos post was just an example of what is possible. It is possible to do modular quicker than integrated and people have. If i were in your position though i would just get the PPL then get a share and just fly as much as possible whilst doing the ATPL's. By the time you have this you will know how the industry is looking. If its picking up then go straight into the IR.

When it does pick up it is not going to happen overnight. There will be lots of experienced pilots from failed airlines before you in the queue. When these start getting picked up in large numbers you know its time to get the IR.

As to how many hours per week, its as many as you can afford. the 100 hours is just a minimum. Any over this is a bonus and will add to your TT. If you get an ME then even better. Just make every hour count by trying to improve your flying each time and setting goals. Try not to pick up bad habits etc.

[fibod]

I fundamentally disagree with you Prophead. I have a lot of experience of training both Integrated Course students and Modular students. You are right in saying that the 100 odd hours building a modular student must complete between the PPL and starting the approved training is important. However, it is extremely rare that DIY, unstructured hours building is of any great benefit to the modular student. Time and time again, student pilots present for their CPL or IR at an approved school and are hopelessly unprepared. This is nothing necessarily to do with their aptitude, rather a result of poor training.

PPL courses are of a very variable standard; those completed in just a few weeks seem to be particularly poor, probably because the skills and procedures learnt are not committed to long-term memory and are forgotten as quickly as they are acquired. Typically, at that point, the student pilot has about 50 hours including about 10 PIC. As the license skill tests on the later approved training will add 5hrs PIC at most, the next 100hrs before one can commence a CPL course have to contain no less than 85hrs PIC. So much of the hours building tends to be unsupervised and unstructured, resulting in inadequately prepared entrants to CPL or IR courses.

In contrast the equivalent phase of an integrated course is structured and supervised and, particularly since the reduction of the SPIC and PIC requirements on an integrated course from 50 and 100 hrs to 20 and 70 hrs respectively, it is much more relevant to the training that will follow.

Yes of course it can be damned good fun charging around the World exercising the privileges of your newly acquired PPL. However, if your objective is to become a professional pilot then get yourself on a professional course, and leave the jollies to the amateurs.

This is not an integrated vs modular rant; you can achieve just the same result on a structured modular course as an integrated course. What it is, is advice to avoid DIY training.

I am no longer an employee of any FTO; I'm semi-retired, working freelance as an examiner, and therefore my advice comes without bias.

So called 'cheaper' modular training can all too often turn out to be much more expensive, because the student has squandered the first 150 hours and then finds them self needed retraining in an hideously expensive environment just as the budget starts to get tight.

Get the foundations right and the more expensive 'advanced' training will go smoothly. Get it wrong and you'll regret it all the way to the bank (oh, I forgot, they don't make loans any more).

And Burger, I'm sure you don't need me to tell you, but beware advice on PPRuNe. Some of it is excellent, some based on wide experience, but others have either personal agendas, or limited experience and are trying to justify their own training and career choices without real knowledge of the subject.

Look up sciolist in the dictionary.

Coo, that was a bit of a rant; sorry and Prophead, I'm not having a go at you; I just disagree with your advice, based on considerable experience.

[Eurotraveller]

Bristol Aviation

Without engaging in a debate as to whether now is the right time to train etc etc in response to the original question about BFC/Bristol Aviation; the problem I found when researching this last year is that a person can only give his or her opinion about the schools they have used, and unless their training experience has been particularly fragmented this limits their ability to give an objective opinion.

Keep what I've mentioned above in mind, but I will say that I've just done my IR/CPL with Bristol Aviation and I honestly can't recommend them enough - excellent instructors, aircraft servisability is very good and all the staff genuinely want to get you through first time with the minimum expense, but without compromising training quality which is fantastic. I would recommend giving them a call and arranging a visit if and when you decide to follow the modular training route. The only downside is that BRS is a pain in the arse to get to, but that's not the school's fault. Nice atmosphere too, plus they have a CAA test centre on site which (although not essential) is certainly handy.

Seriously, I was well impressed with them.

[Burger81]

Eurotraveller,

Thank you very much for your post. That is the kind of info i am looking for, although i do take on board everything that people write and appreciate and acknowledge their opinions.

Regards

Mike