Banks other than HSBC
Supercharged PPRuNer
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I suspect WWW's given up.
samee380
It's good to see that you want to see some options. At the risk of being labelled a pessimist / big bad wolf etc, can I just ask why you are interested in a loan for £80k for pilot training? In October 2008?
samee380
It's good to see that you want to see some options. At the risk of being labelled a pessimist / big bad wolf etc, can I just ask why you are interested in a loan for £80k for pilot training? In October 2008?
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I am just looking for options. My father (thanks so much to him) has already re-mortgaged his house and got £70,000. However, i was just wondering if i could do the loan myself without parents help. Just to show some interest in the money matter, as alot of 19 year olds dont care about the money issue....and get confused.
So i will be approaching Natwest for advice and info.... And have also enquired about Career Development Loan which do help, the £8000 could help with accomodation.
Im just seeing options thats all...
So i will be approaching Natwest for advice and info.... And have also enquired about Career Development Loan which do help, the £8000 could help with accomodation.
Im just seeing options thats all...
Supercharged PPRuNer
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Fair enough, but you can probably guess what I am getting at.
It's just that if you took a straw poll of the professional pilots on here (as opposed to your fellow wannabes), the majority of them would advise against spending money on an integrated course just at the moment. Does that bother you at all?
I'm not trying to be clever - feel free to PM me if you prefer.
It's just that if you took a straw poll of the professional pilots on here (as opposed to your fellow wannabes), the majority of them would advise against spending money on an integrated course just at the moment. Does that bother you at all?
I'm not trying to be clever - feel free to PM me if you prefer.
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Here's a link to the OAA thread Ricko refers to, which might shed some relevant perspective on Samee380's OP: ask.oxfordaviation.net • View topic - Loan not through HSBC
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Did they really?
They offer the best interest rate on planet earth do they? Why not just put it in a savings account which offers 5.5% and earn interest for the rest of your life? Because it's bollox, thats why.
It's more probably like 3.25% above the base rate, if you even understand what that means.
It's more probably like 3.25% above the base rate, if you even understand what that means.
Firstly how do you prove you can get a job in 24 months time? Secondly, do you think you can pay back a 75k loan and live on this money?
That is a fact. Providing ma and pa's house is nice enough.
Last edited by rick0; 19th Oct 2008 at 17:37.
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Fair enough, but you can probably guess what I am getting at.
It's just that if you took a straw poll of the professional pilots on here (as opposed to your fellow wannabes), the majority of them would advise against spending money on an integrated course just at the moment. Does that bother you at all?
I'm not trying to be clever - feel free to PM me if you prefe
It's just that if you took a straw poll of the professional pilots on here (as opposed to your fellow wannabes), the majority of them would advise against spending money on an integrated course just at the moment. Does that bother you at all?
I'm not trying to be clever - feel free to PM me if you prefe
I've spoken to a few pro. pilots and one who did it said it was great.. others who took the modular route, didn't. But hey, it must be easy to say "my route was best" when they're sitting in a RHS!
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I understand that at this point in time it is not good for Pilot Jobs. However, every business has its ups and downs. So at this moment in time i would think it would be a good time to start training and in 1.5 years things might/hopefully pick up and they will be alot of phone calls from airlines to FTO's...etc This is a bad time for people who have just finished their training.
Life is a risk....you have to risk to gain. However, i am still thinking. I may go the modular route but i prefer the integrated as its all together and looked well upon by Airlines. Not saying anything that the Modular route is wrong. They both have advantages and disadvantages.
Nevertheless its great reading posts...good advice and something to think about
Life is a risk....you have to risk to gain. However, i am still thinking. I may go the modular route but i prefer the integrated as its all together and looked well upon by Airlines. Not saying anything that the Modular route is wrong. They both have advantages and disadvantages.
Nevertheless its great reading posts...good advice and something to think about
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Ricko
Nope HSBC offer more than 50K if the security is a large equity.. They quoted
90% of property value + Outstanding mortage balance = Max amount for loan
Get the facts...asked that already!!!!
Nope HSBC offer more than 50K if the security is a large equity.. They quoted
90% of property value + Outstanding mortage balance = Max amount for loan
Get the facts...asked that already!!!!
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You are gambling on 18 months if its 24 months you are at the back of the queue that will be huge.
There is nothing to say that they still wont be mopping up XL/Futura/Zoom/Spanair crews and all the others that are going skint this winter with fuel hedged at $120 with the price at $75
You are only 19 - listen to the folowing words ....you are certifiable to borrow 70k for training right now.......
There is nothing to say that they still wont be mopping up XL/Futura/Zoom/Spanair crews and all the others that are going skint this winter with fuel hedged at $120 with the price at $75
You are only 19 - listen to the folowing words ....you are certifiable to borrow 70k for training right now.......
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Rick0 - You miss my point. I'm not denying that someone has got £75,000 secured on their parents house. If you look back, I am the first to say that it is very easy. My point is that you are justifying spending your parents' house on the basis that an unknown person on an anonymous forum did. Not really a water tight arguement. Thats my point.
You also said:
The course will take you 18 months if you go well. Plan for 24, despite what the glossy brochure says. How can you guarantee you will have a £20,000 p/a job if it all goes tits up?
Sorry for ruffling your feathers. But you were 5% out on an APR. You also don't think that your parents house is classed as life savings. You also contradict yourself. Example:
and then
In the real world, you get told when you come accross as being out of your depth. Sorry if I offended you.
Much love
EK
You also said:
And what's 24 months got to do with anything....?
really don't appreciate your condescending, arrogant BS
Someone on the OAA forums said they talked to Natwest and were able to get £75,000 secured loan and up to £20,000 for a type rating if given a job offer.
Do you really think a bank manager would just give a £80k loan to a 18/19 year old??
Much love
EK
Supercharged PPRuNer
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OK, on my type rating course the low hours guys split pretty much 50/50 between integrated and modular. No great preference one way or the other so far as my airline is concerned. I followed the modular route, it suited my circumstances and worked out well. If I'd started at a different time and had access to the money I might have gone integrated - as you say, they both have their pros and cons.
BUT - there is one massive and indisputable advantage with the modular route. You can slow down or speed up your training to suit the job market. I cannot over-emphasise how important it is to qualify when the job market is good. If you pass the IR during a downturn, you will struggle to compete with experienced out of work pilots, not to mention the many other low-hours guys who qualified ahead of you and are still looking for work. Instrument flying skills degrade very quickly, and it can be ruinously expensive trying to maintain currency. When the upturn finally comes, your CV will look stale compared with people who have come through the system after you.
The great majority of current wannabes were not training at the time of 9/11. You have not seen a full cycle of this industry, and just how bad the job market can become for pilots. The list of bankrupt airlines is growing practically by the week, and with every new casualty comes another pile of CVs of experienced type rated pilots. What chance do you think someone with 200hrs stands against guys with 2000 plus jet hours?
This downturn is only just getting going. Winter is when airlines start to hurt, and in the present climate I would be astonished if we make it through to next spring without at least one more UK carrier going bust. In a few months you may well be competing with hundreds of experienced pilots for your first job.
Ahh, but if I start training now I won't be qualified for 14 months or so, by which time the job market will look much better. That is seriously unlikely. Research how long these industry downturns last. Look how long the effects of 9/11 and the first Gulf War lasted. Once the industry bottoms out, it will take a year or so just to soak up all the experienced out of work pilots. I genuinely believe - having seen all this before - that anyone planning on qualifying in the next two or three years will seriously struggle to find a job.
Timing is everything.
BUT - there is one massive and indisputable advantage with the modular route. You can slow down or speed up your training to suit the job market. I cannot over-emphasise how important it is to qualify when the job market is good. If you pass the IR during a downturn, you will struggle to compete with experienced out of work pilots, not to mention the many other low-hours guys who qualified ahead of you and are still looking for work. Instrument flying skills degrade very quickly, and it can be ruinously expensive trying to maintain currency. When the upturn finally comes, your CV will look stale compared with people who have come through the system after you.
The great majority of current wannabes were not training at the time of 9/11. You have not seen a full cycle of this industry, and just how bad the job market can become for pilots. The list of bankrupt airlines is growing practically by the week, and with every new casualty comes another pile of CVs of experienced type rated pilots. What chance do you think someone with 200hrs stands against guys with 2000 plus jet hours?
This downturn is only just getting going. Winter is when airlines start to hurt, and in the present climate I would be astonished if we make it through to next spring without at least one more UK carrier going bust. In a few months you may well be competing with hundreds of experienced pilots for your first job.
Ahh, but if I start training now I won't be qualified for 14 months or so, by which time the job market will look much better. That is seriously unlikely. Research how long these industry downturns last. Look how long the effects of 9/11 and the first Gulf War lasted. Once the industry bottoms out, it will take a year or so just to soak up all the experienced out of work pilots. I genuinely believe - having seen all this before - that anyone planning on qualifying in the next two or three years will seriously struggle to find a job.
Timing is everything.
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Celtic Pilot - Is this the loan from HSBC for Oxford? Or is it totally seperate? Someone on a OAA course said a few students got turned down by HSBC because they could not prove they could earn £21k p/a (I assume because of experience, age etc). So why would they offer more to some people at a young age..?
EK - I was typing quickly.. i'm full aware (and was) about the interest rates are that plus the base rate.. I put 3.25% as it differs a lot from HSBC's (OAA's loan scheme) of 2%. Thus assuming everyone would think that plus the base rate.
As for this 'contradiction' the person in question isn't 18/19 is he? I haven't looked that up.. oh well praps I did.
But I got the impression you meant that any TV loan company would just give you up to £100k if you signed a house away. I can imagine a high street banks would be more sensible when lending..
G SXTY - Looks like that last bit was aimed at me
Well it was a question.. I really don't know what the forecasts look like and how accurate they are.. look at the crude oil yearly forecasts.. were showing $150 a barrel a few months ago. And yeah, I don't know what industry analysists are saying.
EK - I was typing quickly.. i'm full aware (and was) about the interest rates are that plus the base rate.. I put 3.25% as it differs a lot from HSBC's (OAA's loan scheme) of 2%. Thus assuming everyone would think that plus the base rate.
As for this 'contradiction' the person in question isn't 18/19 is he? I haven't looked that up.. oh well praps I did.
But I got the impression you meant that any TV loan company would just give you up to £100k if you signed a house away. I can imagine a high street banks would be more sensible when lending..
G SXTY - Looks like that last bit was aimed at me
Well it was a question.. I really don't know what the forecasts look like and how accurate they are.. look at the crude oil yearly forecasts.. were showing $150 a barrel a few months ago. And yeah, I don't know what industry analysists are saying.
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I feel sorry for the parents. I hope they are young enough to recoup their losses and still save for their retirement.
Getting yourself in debt to fund an ill timed fantasy is one thing, getting your folks to mortgage their future is another.
You are right to look for alternative methods of funding and if you have any sense of responsibility you will get the old man to pay that 70K back to the bank and cover any losses incurred out your own pocket.
Once you've done that, pick up a broadsheet newspaper, take a long hard look at the economic climate and reevaluate your actual chances of getting a job that enables you to pay this loan back in a reasonable time frame.
At 19 what's the rush to start your trainning at a time when you are likely to finish up when the number of applicants are going to far outweigh the number of airline positions available.
Getting yourself in debt to fund an ill timed fantasy is one thing, getting your folks to mortgage their future is another.
You are right to look for alternative methods of funding and if you have any sense of responsibility you will get the old man to pay that 70K back to the bank and cover any losses incurred out your own pocket.
Once you've done that, pick up a broadsheet newspaper, take a long hard look at the economic climate and reevaluate your actual chances of getting a job that enables you to pay this loan back in a reasonable time frame.
At 19 what's the rush to start your trainning at a time when you are likely to finish up when the number of applicants are going to far outweigh the number of airline positions available.
I haven't quite given up but the Wannabe Zombie Army of Debt Slaves has taken its toll and I thank all of those that have helped defend the line in my absence in romantic Paris (what a city - what a beautiful city).
Its all been said by others on this thread. Borrowing from your parents house to do a high speed high cost pilot training course now is madder than Mad Jack Mc Mad, winner of last years Mr Madman contest, buying a new pair of exploding fish trousers from Hartlepool (to segway Blackadder quotes).
At least 700 newly minted <200hr pilots will join those that currently have no job and no job prospects. Rush to join them if you must.
WWW
Its all been said by others on this thread. Borrowing from your parents house to do a high speed high cost pilot training course now is madder than Mad Jack Mc Mad, winner of last years Mr Madman contest, buying a new pair of exploding fish trousers from Hartlepool (to segway Blackadder quotes).
At least 700 newly minted <200hr pilots will join those that currently have no job and no job prospects. Rush to join them if you must.
WWW
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i would think it would be a good time to start training and in 1.5 years things might/hopefully pick up and they will be alot of phone calls from airlines to FTO's
Whats all this 'phone calls from airlines to FTOs' bolleux? More marketing hype... When times were good 1-2yrs ago this was like flybe and ba only; ba aint gona be making any more calls for yrs...
In fact i thought it was the other way round. students were calling ryanair to see if they would take them and their 20K.
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For the love of god please please listen to the last few posts. They are right. Read and process what they are saying!
rick0 you sum it up sooooo nicely - "and yeah I don't know what the industry analyst’s are saying", well they are not saying wonderful things!
samee380, you are going to do it no matter what, by the sounds of it your dad has already borrowed the money. Just don't expect to get a jet job in 18 months time! I really really want to see a "ha I told you so!!" post on here when you get taken on but I worry there may be another "where are all the jobs???" post.
Good luck and at least you have thought it through more than some others and by the sounds of it can service the loan even if it takes you years and years to get a well paid aviation job.
rick0 you sum it up sooooo nicely - "and yeah I don't know what the industry analyst’s are saying", well they are not saying wonderful things!
samee380, you are going to do it no matter what, by the sounds of it your dad has already borrowed the money. Just don't expect to get a jet job in 18 months time! I really really want to see a "ha I told you so!!" post on here when you get taken on but I worry there may be another "where are all the jobs???" post.
Good luck and at least you have thought it through more than some others and by the sounds of it can service the loan even if it takes you years and years to get a well paid aviation job.
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I completely agree with WWW and G-SXTY. Now is not the time to start a full time course. If you spread out your training and pay for as much as you can as you go it will lessen your problems. I want to fly commercially just as much as any one else.
I did the ATPL exams and I am about to start the CPL. The difference is that I decided to slow things right down. I was going to go for the full metal jacket: CPL, ME, IR, MCC.
Given the situation I decided against it and now I am training for the CPL-SE and FI. I have saved practically all the cash for the CPL-SE and FI by taking my time and taking it slow. Yes, I still have a little debt but it is a lot smaller than it could have been (2000 euros compared to scary amounts)! The risk is much smaller for me so I feel more willing to test the water (for what it is worth). I am still concerned off course, since I will still be looking for that first instructor job. A few people think I am crazy for doing it this way, I have been urged to just "get all the ratings" and “get your ATPL and get into the market...why waste time on the FI course?". Well working as a teacher is certainly not a waste of time and yes I will have problems getting that first job as well. The difference is that I will not have an enormous loan bearing down on me and I can finish the additional ratings and spread out the rest of my training as the situation permits. If lady luck feels like a dance I might even have a few hundred hours of teaching experience to go with that shiny new IR when I eventually get it. Yea what if it all goes south? Well, I thought that one through and worked very hard on my back up plan too. I am painfully aware of these things.
I urge you to consider the whole situation, listen to the advice of people who really do know the market and assimilate the facts before making decisions that could effect you for a long time to come. Don't listen like a zombie to the FTOs they will tell you what you want to hear! Trust me, from personal experience I have heard one FTO after the other spout an enormous amount of crap about the job market. Do your own research as well! I think now is a good time for being flexible (or holding off on the training all together) rather than blindly working on every rating in one go for the hope of a job.
LG
PS- WWW, G-SXTY and the rest... don't give up.
I did the ATPL exams and I am about to start the CPL. The difference is that I decided to slow things right down. I was going to go for the full metal jacket: CPL, ME, IR, MCC.
Given the situation I decided against it and now I am training for the CPL-SE and FI. I have saved practically all the cash for the CPL-SE and FI by taking my time and taking it slow. Yes, I still have a little debt but it is a lot smaller than it could have been (2000 euros compared to scary amounts)! The risk is much smaller for me so I feel more willing to test the water (for what it is worth). I am still concerned off course, since I will still be looking for that first instructor job. A few people think I am crazy for doing it this way, I have been urged to just "get all the ratings" and “get your ATPL and get into the market...why waste time on the FI course?". Well working as a teacher is certainly not a waste of time and yes I will have problems getting that first job as well. The difference is that I will not have an enormous loan bearing down on me and I can finish the additional ratings and spread out the rest of my training as the situation permits. If lady luck feels like a dance I might even have a few hundred hours of teaching experience to go with that shiny new IR when I eventually get it. Yea what if it all goes south? Well, I thought that one through and worked very hard on my back up plan too. I am painfully aware of these things.
I urge you to consider the whole situation, listen to the advice of people who really do know the market and assimilate the facts before making decisions that could effect you for a long time to come. Don't listen like a zombie to the FTOs they will tell you what you want to hear! Trust me, from personal experience I have heard one FTO after the other spout an enormous amount of crap about the job market. Do your own research as well! I think now is a good time for being flexible (or holding off on the training all together) rather than blindly working on every rating in one go for the hope of a job.
LG
PS- WWW, G-SXTY and the rest... don't give up.
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I have got savings and have worked during my A-Levels! I live with my parents who house value is £350,000
We are entering a severe recession. If you look back to the end of the 80s / beginning of 90s recession, it took far longer than a year and a half for the aviation job market to recover. 1994 is something I seem to recall - five years after the crash of 1989.
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Sesame you have just finished your A-levels.... you are not going to like what I have to say but I'll say it anyway....
1) You have no idea how much money £80k is to repay as you have never had a full time job.... add interest it is over 100k
2) Making your parents remortgage their house that is already falling in value in a market where the chance of you getting a job in 12-18 months is slim at best is just one thing... Selfish....
3) Take 2 years out, work full-time, get a bit of life experience and save some cash then you will be in a better position.
4) You are being driven by the "I want it now" attitude that will get you in deep deep sh*t if you go down the route you are taking in the current environment.
You might not like to hear this but it is the truth. Go away for 2 years and grow up... straight out of school and living with your mum and dad you know jack sh*t about the real world and you are an integrated FTOs wet dream becuase you are the sort of people they are going to need to keep them viable over the next 2-3 years when there a NO jobs for young wanabees.
Those people warning you to ignore the "doomsters" are the wolves... a fool and his (and his parents) money are easily parted.
Read the FT, economist any bloody newspaper.... what you are planning is nuts
1) You have no idea how much money £80k is to repay as you have never had a full time job.... add interest it is over 100k
2) Making your parents remortgage their house that is already falling in value in a market where the chance of you getting a job in 12-18 months is slim at best is just one thing... Selfish....
3) Take 2 years out, work full-time, get a bit of life experience and save some cash then you will be in a better position.
4) You are being driven by the "I want it now" attitude that will get you in deep deep sh*t if you go down the route you are taking in the current environment.
You might not like to hear this but it is the truth. Go away for 2 years and grow up... straight out of school and living with your mum and dad you know jack sh*t about the real world and you are an integrated FTOs wet dream becuase you are the sort of people they are going to need to keep them viable over the next 2-3 years when there a NO jobs for young wanabees.
Those people warning you to ignore the "doomsters" are the wolves... a fool and his (and his parents) money are easily parted.
Read the FT, economist any bloody newspaper.... what you are planning is nuts
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^I have taken a year out and have worked for over a year now! By the time i start training that will be 1.5 years of work done!
Some of you guys are talking like you have met me? How ridiculous! Do not make assumptions!
Silly
and btw its not "Sesame"
Some of you guys are talking like you have met me? How ridiculous! Do not make assumptions!
Silly
and btw its not "Sesame"