Should I continue?
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Mike
You say your debt is 'above the norm', so lets assume you could actually find a bank to lend you the funds (given the current credit crunch) to complete the CPL/IR/MCC, your living costs whilst training and funding the continuing repayments on your existing debt commitments. Have you actually calculated your financial position once all of this is completed? Don't forget the contingency costs for partial/failed CPL or IR skills tests and the necessary additional training/re-tests.
Now assume that having the licence/ratings, you can't find a job (very common for modular pilots). (I know quite a few folks who obtained the 'frozen' ATPL only to find no jobs and with no funds to go further. They have gone back to their old jobs and with the debt to repay from training could not afford to stay current let alone build hours.) Will you have the funds for an FI rating and would you be able to service your now sizeable debt whilst earning very little from full-time flying instruction?
I don't want to rain on your parade, only ask you to work through the financial calculations using a worst case scenario. Only by doing this can you decide if this is a risk which is worth taking.
You say your debt is 'above the norm', so lets assume you could actually find a bank to lend you the funds (given the current credit crunch) to complete the CPL/IR/MCC, your living costs whilst training and funding the continuing repayments on your existing debt commitments. Have you actually calculated your financial position once all of this is completed? Don't forget the contingency costs for partial/failed CPL or IR skills tests and the necessary additional training/re-tests.
Now assume that having the licence/ratings, you can't find a job (very common for modular pilots). (I know quite a few folks who obtained the 'frozen' ATPL only to find no jobs and with no funds to go further. They have gone back to their old jobs and with the debt to repay from training could not afford to stay current let alone build hours.) Will you have the funds for an FI rating and would you be able to service your now sizeable debt whilst earning very little from full-time flying instruction?
I don't want to rain on your parade, only ask you to work through the financial calculations using a worst case scenario. Only by doing this can you decide if this is a risk which is worth taking.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sydney NSW
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mike! maaate!!
None of us are qualified to advise. And that applies to gut feelings too, there are several degrees of tummyache. I'm not here to knock you or put you off or put you on come to that. Just to help you think clearly.
I think it is good to have another half to life besides flying to keep things in balance. For me that half is my wife, my kids and my home. Flying is the glue that has mostly kept it all together but I've changed direction several times yet my family has survived and we have not gone short.
Flying as you have discovered is not a guarantee of happiness and universal respect. It can feel like that at times but not all the time. Sure I have seen and done things I could not have otherwise done. But at work [before I retired] being able to do my job to the satisfaction of our customers, the cabin crew and all my other colleagues on the ground and in the air was what was important. If circumstances force you to shift direction do it with grace and aim for the same standards but playing a different game. It is about what you are not what you do. It isn't about aviation, single and alone, **** or bust. The chances are you'll end up single, alone, **** and bust.
When you make your decision I wish you every success and all the happiness you could wish for. If you ever feel the urge to sink a better beer than your current choice I am in Brussels for a while and Mrs "E" would be delighted to rustle up some grub and make you feel at home.
Best Rgds
The "E"
I think it is good to have another half to life besides flying to keep things in balance. For me that half is my wife, my kids and my home. Flying is the glue that has mostly kept it all together but I've changed direction several times yet my family has survived and we have not gone short.
Flying as you have discovered is not a guarantee of happiness and universal respect. It can feel like that at times but not all the time. Sure I have seen and done things I could not have otherwise done. But at work [before I retired] being able to do my job to the satisfaction of our customers, the cabin crew and all my other colleagues on the ground and in the air was what was important. If circumstances force you to shift direction do it with grace and aim for the same standards but playing a different game. It is about what you are not what you do. It isn't about aviation, single and alone, **** or bust. The chances are you'll end up single, alone, **** and bust.
When you make your decision I wish you every success and all the happiness you could wish for. If you ever feel the urge to sink a better beer than your current choice I am in Brussels for a while and Mrs "E" would be delighted to rustle up some grub and make you feel at home.
Best Rgds
The "E"
Join Date: Aug 2007
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This thread really upsets me
Why, why, why is Prune full of such a bunch of negative cry babies. If you have the dream and you think you can do it, the for f
sake, go and try!!
The majority of people that seem to be on this forum are people that have failed. You certainly dont see anyone that has chased the dream and succeeded posting and telling you to give it up!!! I know plenty of commercial pilots who dont stop saying how much they love their lives and their jobs.
Suggestion, if you have tried and failed, please keep it to yourselves because your negaive s is starting to drive me insane. In fact sometimes it makes me want to top myself without even having attempted to try and get my first interview.
sake, go and try!!The majority of people that seem to be on this forum are people that have failed. You certainly dont see anyone that has chased the dream and succeeded posting and telling you to give it up!!! I know plenty of commercial pilots who dont stop saying how much they love their lives and their jobs.
Suggestion, if you have tried and failed, please keep it to yourselves because your negaive s
is starting to drive me insane. In fact sometimes it makes me want to top myself without even having attempted to try and get my first interview.
Join Date: Feb 2008
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I agree completely SlingsbyT67M so many negative people on this site, they seem to think that everything should be handed to them on a plate.
Everyone seems to think its the end of the world if they don't become a pilot, if I don't make so what, I wont beat myself up about it.
P.S negative thoughts lead to negative actions,
Everyone seems to think its the end of the world if they don't become a pilot, if I don't make so what, I wont beat myself up about it.
P.S negative thoughts lead to negative actions,
Join Date: Jul 2004
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I agree with sam Man... With a positive attitude and self belief you can accomplish even what certain people on here call the impossible....
I did... and am living the dream, loving it, and whatever others say on here, a bad day flying still beats a good day in the office. And i started out at quite a ripe vintage as well....
There seem to be predominately two types on this forum. Either those who have failed to get a job because they believe the airlines are too stupid to recognize their genius, or those who have got into the castle and want to pull up the drawbridge behind them, and fire arrows through slits to keep others away.
but there are others! Keep the faith.... World economies go up, as well as down.
I did... and am living the dream, loving it, and whatever others say on here, a bad day flying still beats a good day in the office. And i started out at quite a ripe vintage as well....
There seem to be predominately two types on this forum. Either those who have failed to get a job because they believe the airlines are too stupid to recognize their genius, or those who have got into the castle and want to pull up the drawbridge behind them, and fire arrows through slits to keep others away.
but there are others! Keep the faith.... World economies go up, as well as down.
reality Check
Lads im sorry but a positive attitude and dreams of flying for the big boys isnt going to pay off the bills.
The advice here isn't given by people who have failed (last time I checked I hadn't) its given by people who see the average wannabe who will stop at nothing to get the licence and then bitch that they are up to their eye balls in debt and now can't afford to live.
I love my job wouldn't change it for the world but you have to be realistic. We are about to enter a period of no to negative growth and the ensuing stopping of recruitment and/or loss of jobs.
Would you really want to a middle aged wannabe with high levels of debt and no way to stay current in a market geared up for guys with plenty of time?
Its all well and good saying live the dream but when the reality of the situation comes to smack you in between the eyes. Trying to repay bills and having spent 30k for a peice of paper that dream becomes a nightmare.
But hey you can live the dream, just buy the man some ray bans and a big watch!
No one can say don't train but be very very careful in that will you have access to work in the meantime to pay the bills and keep current/ build hours? If the answer to that is no I would be extremely wary of taking on even more debt than you already have. Remember the road to hell is paved with good intentions!
The advice here isn't given by people who have failed (last time I checked I hadn't) its given by people who see the average wannabe who will stop at nothing to get the licence and then bitch that they are up to their eye balls in debt and now can't afford to live.
I love my job wouldn't change it for the world but you have to be realistic. We are about to enter a period of no to negative growth and the ensuing stopping of recruitment and/or loss of jobs.
Would you really want to a middle aged wannabe with high levels of debt and no way to stay current in a market geared up for guys with plenty of time?
Its all well and good saying live the dream but when the reality of the situation comes to smack you in between the eyes. Trying to repay bills and having spent 30k for a peice of paper that dream becomes a nightmare.
But hey you can live the dream, just buy the man some ray bans and a big watch!
No one can say don't train but be very very careful in that will you have access to work in the meantime to pay the bills and keep current/ build hours? If the answer to that is no I would be extremely wary of taking on even more debt than you already have. Remember the road to hell is paved with good intentions!
Supercharged PPRuNer
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Always remember that this forum exists as a talking shop for people who want to get into the right hand seat of an airliner, but haven't got there yet. Therefore, and inevitably, you'll have a mixture of (a) those with no flying experience but loads of enthusiasm, (b) those in the various stages of training, who still have a dream but whose enthusiasm has possibly been dulled by experience and costs, and (c) those who have completed training, got the little blue book but for whatever reason have been unable to find a job, and are understandably negative. Always bear that in mind when seeking advice.
What you'll struggle to find on this forum are current airline pilots. That's because as soon as most people get their first job, wannabes' issues become secondary to their next LPC/OPC, keeping up with notacs and changes to SOPs, planning their next career move and staying abreast with crewroom gossip. I can personally think of at least a dozen names who used to post here but are now happily driving airliners, and who no longer post. At the same time, I reckon the number of current airline pilots who regularly post on 'wannabes' is around ten at most - and that includes the mods. Which is a shame, but quite understandable.
So to try and answer the original question. With the best will in the world, those advising; "go for it, 'tis better to try and fail than not try in the first place" are no doubt genuine, but probably speak from positions of little or no experience. Those advising you to stop are likely as not doing so because flying training and the search for a first job has been an unhappy experience.
I do not agree that flying is a 'disease'. Passion - yes, obsession - quite possibly, but there's nothing inherently destructive about flying as long as you keep your feet on the ground. I do know that getting from zero hours to an airline job is a bloody hard slog that some people enter into without doing enough homework. The demands of training can damage health and relationships as much as finances. It is perfectly normal to have doubts about your eventual success - more than once I came close to jacking it all in. Aged 35 I had my ATPLs in the bag, hours built, and a safe, undemanding, well paid office job in London. I decided to leave my job, borrow money for the CPL/IR & MCC and throw myself into full-time training because I faced a choice between following my dream (and risking it all) or playing safe and spending the rest of my 'career' in crushing boredom, ground down by the daily commute. In short, I rolled the dice. I got lucky - a job with a decent airline less than 3 months after finishing the IR. Now I'm happier than I've ever been in my life - I really struggle to articulate just how good the feeling is.
BUT - I know I've been lucky. During training I met people with just as much determination as me, some who'd sold houses to pay for training, some with rich families. To be brutally frank, some of them wouldn't make airline pilots as long as they've got a hole in their bum. Some guys just do not have the aptitude for this game, however much they want it, and they simply will not make it through airline selection - however good the job market.
So while I'd love to say; "follow your dream, it worked for me" I can't advise doing it without a cold, hard look at your chances of getting a job. Look beyond the next two or three years - you have plenty of time yet. Can you succeed in getting a job when the market picks up? Unfortunately the GAPAN tests are not suitable with your hours, but can you answer yes to these questions? Did you pass the PPL skills test first time with close to minimum hours? Can you pass all the ATPLs first time with a 90%+ average? Do you usually succeed at job interviews? The real tests come with CPL/IR training, but these will at least give you some pointers.
Personally, I'd concentrate on finishing the written exams and leave flying for the moment. If you do well at the ATPLs, seek out a friendly commercial instructor and ask him to fly with you and give you an honest assessment of your abilities. At least then you'll be in a position to decide whether to proceed based on evidence rather than feelings.
Hope that helps.
What you'll struggle to find on this forum are current airline pilots. That's because as soon as most people get their first job, wannabes' issues become secondary to their next LPC/OPC, keeping up with notacs and changes to SOPs, planning their next career move and staying abreast with crewroom gossip. I can personally think of at least a dozen names who used to post here but are now happily driving airliners, and who no longer post. At the same time, I reckon the number of current airline pilots who regularly post on 'wannabes' is around ten at most - and that includes the mods. Which is a shame, but quite understandable.
So to try and answer the original question. With the best will in the world, those advising; "go for it, 'tis better to try and fail than not try in the first place" are no doubt genuine, but probably speak from positions of little or no experience. Those advising you to stop are likely as not doing so because flying training and the search for a first job has been an unhappy experience.
I do not agree that flying is a 'disease'. Passion - yes, obsession - quite possibly, but there's nothing inherently destructive about flying as long as you keep your feet on the ground. I do know that getting from zero hours to an airline job is a bloody hard slog that some people enter into without doing enough homework. The demands of training can damage health and relationships as much as finances. It is perfectly normal to have doubts about your eventual success - more than once I came close to jacking it all in. Aged 35 I had my ATPLs in the bag, hours built, and a safe, undemanding, well paid office job in London. I decided to leave my job, borrow money for the CPL/IR & MCC and throw myself into full-time training because I faced a choice between following my dream (and risking it all) or playing safe and spending the rest of my 'career' in crushing boredom, ground down by the daily commute. In short, I rolled the dice. I got lucky - a job with a decent airline less than 3 months after finishing the IR. Now I'm happier than I've ever been in my life - I really struggle to articulate just how good the feeling is.
BUT - I know I've been lucky. During training I met people with just as much determination as me, some who'd sold houses to pay for training, some with rich families. To be brutally frank, some of them wouldn't make airline pilots as long as they've got a hole in their bum. Some guys just do not have the aptitude for this game, however much they want it, and they simply will not make it through airline selection - however good the job market.
So while I'd love to say; "follow your dream, it worked for me" I can't advise doing it without a cold, hard look at your chances of getting a job. Look beyond the next two or three years - you have plenty of time yet. Can you succeed in getting a job when the market picks up? Unfortunately the GAPAN tests are not suitable with your hours, but can you answer yes to these questions? Did you pass the PPL skills test first time with close to minimum hours? Can you pass all the ATPLs first time with a 90%+ average? Do you usually succeed at job interviews? The real tests come with CPL/IR training, but these will at least give you some pointers.
Personally, I'd concentrate on finishing the written exams and leave flying for the moment. If you do well at the ATPLs, seek out a friendly commercial instructor and ask him to fly with you and give you an honest assessment of your abilities. At least then you'll be in a position to decide whether to proceed based on evidence rather than feelings.
Hope that helps.
