why is modular cheaper than integrated ??

[jxc]

Hi All

I know modular atpl studies is cheaper by modular as training on your own but where else is the savings to be made sorry if i am being just a little stupid


Cheers
JXC

[Dreamshiner]

Go to America and come back and convert, aviation there is a third of the price compared to Europe and they tend to be friendlier.

Also conversions save money as FAA CPL to JAA is hours as required, so if you are fresh from the US then its easy peasy, try to find a school that uses the same aircraft type, no point spending extra money learning on a Seneca if you flew a Seminole or DA-42.

IR is 5 or 10 hours sim and 5 hours in an aircraft, again big savings if you come straight back to Europe and do it right away.

As for why modular is much cheaper than integrated maybe you should look at the exhibition stands and marketing material that Oxford/Cabair/Jerez roll out, plus the big salaries for accountants and former pilots and that extra layer of management. However they do have good maintenance facilities.

[BerksFlyer]

The schools' airline links, recommendation systems - though modular schools also have recommendation systems.

I would have thought it's simply a case of them being able to charge what they charge because at the end of the day, if the marketing is good enough, people will always be tempted and willing to pay what they charge.

Supply and demand.

[nich-av]

Thank you for opening this thread, we'll have a good time here.

Why is modular cheaper than integrated, even at schools where they offer both?

There's a simple answer to that question and you can pretty much sum it up in one single word: marketing.

Integrated schools are marketing integrated as being a program that favors employment, a program that facilitates the learning process thanks to a dynamic structure and offers an easy repayment scheme.

Why do people buy into it?
-Some starters just tend to fall for that marketing.
-Starters find it easier to have their parents sign for a hyper high loan and reimburse it on a later date than to find ways to do it cheaper on money they can't get to borrow from a bank. The money borrowing process seems to be easy on an integrated program and almost impossible on a modular program.

Result, people end up spending twice or even more than they are supposed to.

That integrated students have more chances to find a job is almost a myth. We have seen no hard facts nor statistics proving that.

In a survey among 7 airlines, 6 out of 7 airlines said they don't care whether it's modular or integrated. 1 out of 7 preferred integrated.

http://www.gapan.org/careers/survey.htm

Q4 Does your organisation have a preference for candidates who have followed a particular training course to obtain their licence? E.g. JAA integrated/JAA modular/military/other.

Comment. One airline preferred JAA integrated training while the remaining six expressed no particular preferences as to the type of training course followed to obtain the commercial licence.

The survey did not follow up with questions about required standards of performance achieved during flying training, e.g. first time pass rate in ground examinations or flying tests, because it was assumed that these would be the same regardless of the type of training course.

The good news for prospective airline pilots is that all avenues are open to them to obtain their licences by the most cost effective means. This good news does come with a health warning and that is that airlines are likely to scrutinise individual results when interviewing prospective pilot employees. Regardless of the type of training course chosen flying training schools vary in the quality of the average results achieved by their students.

Profit margins?
Some may think that certification for integrated schools comes at a higher expense. In some regards that is true, seen the higher complexity involved. Yet, that does not justify dozens of thousand higher training expenses. Moreover, modular flight schools operating in Europe often offer lower pricing than integrated flight schools despite the fact that the latter conduct most of the flying part in USA where the operational expenses on aircraft are 60% lower than in Europe and integrated leaves a student with less hours.

Future prospects:
Low-cost providers are starting to offer training at bottom low prices and pulling away many many students from integrated schools.
Integrated schools are starting to diversify their programs to attract more students through cadetships, sponsorhips, etc... and starting to explore new markets like India and China.

[v6g]

Modular schools sell training. Integrated schools sell a dream. Customers buying dreams aren't price sensitive.

The same argument applies to people who lease a luxury car instead of buying a second-hand economy car.

[Prophead]

Dont forget you also need to live during you integrated training. This can add thousands onto the cost of the course itself. Modular can be done around a job and many do.

[5 RINGS]

takes less characters to write it

[jxc]

I understand the GS part been cheaper modular but when it comes to the cpl and IR surely they are charged at similar prices i.e aircraft hourly rates

[EK4457]

As mentioned above, you're paying for a load of marketing and a whole layer of management which is just not there at a modular school. These people and their resources must cost hundreds of thousands of pounds. Of course, this ulimately gets passed on to the customer.

It's really simple. Modular and Integrated are two very different business models. They have evolved from the days of 'self improver' and the more traditional option which is now integrated.

Integrated schools need to justify charging 40% more and offereing less hours. Hence the marketing and claimed 'contacts' with airlines.

Most integrated schools have a mixed reputation even with a marketing department. Some modular schools have an excellent reputation and NO marketing department. Says it all to me.

But, you pays your money and takes your choice, whatever works best for you.

EK

[A and C]

It is simple, the training company's have sold the idea to the airlines that it is better to have someone who has done the integrated course, if you are part of one of the airline "attached" courses the airline gets tax breaks that results in your training being almost free to the airline and you the pilot being tied to them for a number of years.

The advantage to the training company they can provide a linked up modular course and charge you the pilot a lot more money for a "dressed up " product, I suspect a large slice of selling a dream and marketing to the money providors (be it the bank or Mummy & Daddy).

If all of you guys went "modular" You couls be £15,000-£20,000 better off at the end of the course with the same licence and it would force the airlines to shop around for pilots. Who knows they might even start paying for your type ratings. (would it not be refreshing to see the threads about training bonds return?)

[Re-Heat]

Content - fewer solo hours and more dual hours
Structure - earlier exposure to twin aircraft - CPL test on twin at some schools
Support - set up as a school, with more support staff to run the outfit
Training aids - sometimes more than at a purely modular school
Availability - sometimes provide more spare aircraft to ensure availability than a small modular school

[Finals19]

IR is 5 or 10 hours sim and 5 hours in an aircraft, again big savings if you come straight back to Europe and do it right away

If you have an overseas licence, particularly US, do not be fooled by the above. What is quoted is the absolute JAA minima. Ten hours sim is perhaps do-able, but 5 hours a/c including your 170a is very unrealistic. A lot of schools in the UK prepare you for test by flying diverse routes in the a/c - often potential routes where the CAA may take you. A typical route can be 1.7-2.0hrs flight time, so you do the maths. If you haven't seen an NDB before, I would add at least another 10 hours flight time onto that, if not more (so 15-20 hours on average)

CPL conversion is "as required" and is much more reasonable - if you have decent handling skills then all that is really needed is some navigation exercises, so 5-7 hours should be fine.

[Deano777]

Look at the costs of Modular, these are general but in the right ballpark.

PPL - £6500
Hour Building - 100hrs @ £120 in the UK - £12,000
ATPL course - £2,000
Night Rating - £700
CPL - £4700
Multi Rating - £2,000
IR - £12,000
MCC - £3,000

Total = £42,900

What you really spend is quite different, these are the extras that I spent.

PPL exams - 8 @ £15 each - £120
PPL GST - £320
PPL License issue - £150 (can't remember exact cost)
Night Rating endorsement - £70
Petrol to & from Bristol Intl - 80 trips x 75 miles @ 35mpg - £600
Ancillaries like headset (x2), kneeboard, CRP1 & 5, pens etc etc - £600
Petrol to & from BGS for ATPL - 110 mile round trip x 5 days x 4 weeks - £250
Lunch & snacks + drinks for duration of ATPLs - £80
ATPL exams x 14 @ £60 - £840
ATPL exam accomodation for 8 days (2 modules), including all food, drinks, travel expenses - £500
Petrol to & from Aeros in Staverton - for hour building, CPL/IR - 110 trips @ 68 mile round trip - £840
Landing fees during hour building - £125
CPL test fee - including solo hire for test - £975
IR test fee - including solo hire for test - £1250
CPL/IR license issue - £210
FIC course, including test fee, solo hire, travel & food - £7200

Now there must be more to it than this, but the extras adds up to £14,130

This gives a grand total of £57,030

Add a few more things that I've most likely forgotten and it is pushing £60,000.

So all in all is it that much cheaper? I'm not sure what's included in the integrated course as far as ancillaries go so I can't comment.

[Prophead]

Deano777

I wouldn't say they are general i'd say they were on the high side. I don't know anyone who has spent £120 an hour for all their hour building.

As for things like petrol food etc. these would surely be more for an intergrated course.

Alot of modular guys go to the USA for some of their training (As do alot of integrated by the way) and this can bring the costs down considerably.


Re-Heat

Your comments assume the modular student has done no research into the school they attend and could equally apply to integrated.


Lets remember there are good and bad schools both integrated and modular.

[Deano777]

Prophead

Some of us are not "lucky" enough to live in close proximity to alot of flying schools, there are only a few in my catchment area, and those prices, are rounded up to the nearest £100 are typical of the area I live in, some people will have to pay more, some less, so to me they are general pricing, I'm not here to talk semantics though, you know what I am trying to get across.

I had forgotten that I spent £95 per hr for 40hrs of my hour building, the rest was about £115 - £120, and I did state that this was in the UK and not abroad. I chose not to go to the USA for my own reasons.

Also Prophead, the living expenses would be the thing that's higher for the Integrated student, but not in all cases, not everyone has to stay in B&Bs or digs, also those that do will probably have little or no travelling expenses at all.

My point above was to highlight that Modular is not necessarily cheaper, and that just because modular outfits give you prices of their specific courses this doesn't include skills tests with solo hire, exam fees etc etc etc which evidently bumps up the price of modular training quite considerably, and this is normally the things that Mr Layman doesn't take into account or budget for.

[A and C]

Deano777

I could knock the best part of £5000 off from the hour building costs with an aircraft on your doorstep! ( and I would bet it is a much nicer aircraft than you would find at most places in the UK)

I could also put a big dent in the travel bill as well because the aircraft it at the location best for you.

[potkettleblack]

Its all very easy to nit pick someone when they have taken the time and effort to put a very detailed list of the likely actual costs involved in undertaking the training. Me personally I would take those costs and add on a 10% contingency and work from there. if it comes out cheaper its a bonus. Be conservative, thats what aviation is all about. Unfortunately far to many people get near the finish line and come up short when they run out of cash.

Also how much will it cost you being out of work and for how long whilst you do the training?

[Deano777]

Thanks potkettleblack, I'm used to the nitpicking

A and C

It's a little late now as I completed my hour building over 18 months ago, however, I like to do a bit of touring on my days off from the airlines so if you could PM me details that would be good. And as it's £5k cheaper than the price quoted from me that's nearly ½ price?
How do you know where I live to say that your a/c is in the best location for me?

[A and C]

Deano777

PM on it's way to you.

The aircraft comes to the location that you require so it cuts the cost of road transport to the minimum.

[hollingworthp]

A & C

Sounds like a good deal - so what is the hourly rate like?

Does it depend where in the country you are?