waterford ptc.ya right
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I'm a past student of PTC..... they are a joke. flight safety was amazing great planes, instructors etc and then you get back to waterford, the sunny south east... took way too long to get the last part done (CPL IR) with weather/ lack of planes, lack of instructors, lack of organisation.
the instructors are the only thing ptc has going for them and most of them are leaving. I'm amazed the planes are still in the air, and the office staff are just crazy! problems with money ie. they wanted more. and more. and more. ended up finishing the course on bad terms over money, and i'm not the only one. Have secured a job on my own terms with no help from ptc. actually since I finished the only contact I've had is an angry email and letter for money. money i don't owe them!!
Don't buy the act. go to florida, do it yourself and come back and do a conversion. (anyone doing a conversion got preference over the rest of us! god knows why since we all paid the same money)
From someone who has done it.....DONT DO IT.
the instructors are the only thing ptc has going for them and most of them are leaving. I'm amazed the planes are still in the air, and the office staff are just crazy! problems with money ie. they wanted more. and more. and more. ended up finishing the course on bad terms over money, and i'm not the only one. Have secured a job on my own terms with no help from ptc. actually since I finished the only contact I've had is an angry email and letter for money. money i don't owe them!!
Don't buy the act. go to florida, do it yourself and come back and do a conversion. (anyone doing a conversion got preference over the rest of us! god knows why since we all paid the same money)
From someone who has done it.....DONT DO IT.
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funny i did notice that but i just put it down to God's Will. do you mean to say there might be a connection between the two? something to do with money maybe?
apparently they got another seminole recently but they nearly lost another one last week after somebody went flying with no AVGAS. once again the IAA are investigating!
apparently they got another seminole recently but they nearly lost another one last week after somebody went flying with no AVGAS. once again the IAA are investigating!
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Hahaha, cost cutting PTC style!!
however, seeing as there is only 5.5 hours endurance in the seminole, and each slot is 2 hours flying, it would seem prudent to refuel after the second flight!
another thing, from past experience i know that with 2 people in the front seats and no ballast or pax, those seminoles are fairly close to the forward cg limit with full fuel, and the arm moves further forward the more fuel you burn, so im guessing the iaa may have something to say about their weight and balance sheet, as well as the whole lack of any fuel reserves, or any fuel at all for that matter!
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Real Life
One of the privileges of anonymity in a forum such as this, is how it affords participants the ability to speak honestly and truthfully about heartfealt issues, without fear of sanction or repercussion. Unfortunately it also affords certain individuals the freedom to talk complete and utter BULL****.
So along with anonymity comes the responsibility for the sender to kindly confine their comments to things they know something about, and for the receiver to use some common sense and intelligence in filtering the information before responding.
Having sat on the sidelines of this conversation for a while, I feel compelled to set a few things straight about PTC. Due to the layout of this thread, I will do this in reverse chronological order.
Can anyone else see the flaw in this statement or is it just me? Spend more time studying your performance and endurance charts since your Oral Exam may prove problematic with statements like this.
This, of course, is aircraft specific, but taking the least 'favourable' aircraft in the fleet, I suggest you get the envelope in front of you and draw this out.
Less Fuel is better from a Weight and Balance point of view, not worse as you suggest.
Needless to say, on the flight in question, neither that aircraft's characteristic BEM, nor it's loading were limiting factors!
It is not for me to speculate how this happened. But those who were involved would find it deeply offensive to suggest that there was any *intention* of departing with insufficient fuel. PTC have taken this incident *very* seriously indeed and an AAIU (not IAA) investigation is underway. Let me simply suggest that anyone who knowingly departs with less than sufficient fuel plus reserves on board needs their heads examined, so there are other factors indicated. It would be extremely helpful if some consideration were shown for the crew of this aircraft whose combined airmanship, in fact, saved the day.
Nope. Ask around. Base Leg 03, I understand.
a797... What can I say. You really are a prized Twerp aren't you! 
How dare you flame Keygrip in that way!!! Taught by Airline Captains for your PPL at FSI were you? First time passes, in your ground exams eh? ...and your flight test! WOW! Good for you. So... you've been in this industry now for, well let's see, 5 minutes? You obviously know what you're talking about then.
KeyGrip has been in this industry for many many years. He has more hours than many of those "airline captains" at FSI you're so smug about. Indeed, he has worked with FSI many years before PTC was born. Yet, he is TOTALLY independant of PTC, FSI the IAA or the FAA. In fact, without giving too much away, his actual job depends on this.
So whatever your grievances against PTC, don't take them out on Keygrip! His analysis is completely correct. PTC pulled out of FSI because FSI didn't meet the standards required.
This is public information, so for the record, PTC are now based at FIT in Melbourne Florida, (who mentioned Australia???... good grief
). FIT is maybe not as publicly well-known as FSI, but they are renowned as a NASA training facility. (Their current Dean is a former astronaut). Without comparing the length of everyone's personal credentials at PTC (FL) with those at FSI, let me just say that one of the PTC groundschool instructors is a former NASA test-pilot and the others are equally well experienced in their own ways.
So let me finish with some salient facts. PTC is a business. Like any other it must make money and to do that it must be profitable. There is no shame in making a profit, or from trying to maximise that profit. If students feel exploited, they can try elsewhere. If instructors feel aggrieved about their terms and conditions, they are welcome to move on. That is the nature of a free market and you all have choices.
But a word of warning... The grass always seems greener on the other side. Having done all of my training on the modular route and having worked in the industry now for many years, I have seen none better than PTC when it comes to standards. That includes places like Oxford and Cabair, who also have facilities in the USA. Indeed, if you think resources, timescales, and costs are a "joke" at PTC, you should experience the joys of being a modular student in Goodyear Arizona or Kissimmee Florida, or Kidlington / Cranfield for that matter.
All of the more vocal complainants in this thread can't see this of course. Their noses are pressed firmly up against the windows at Waterford watching the ATRs fly in and out of the persistent rain and low overcast which we're blessed with at present. Understandably, their problems are intensely personal to them, and they're missing the Florida Sunshine where everything was bright and beautiful while they were doing their PPLs at FSI. But they have no perspective. If you want to see disenchanted instructors and frustrated students, you need look no further... but if you did, you would find the same story told over and over in so many different ways.
That doesn't make it right, of course, but you see it's all relative. Sure, PTC management is like any other when it comes to running a business. Their backs are against the economic wall. But unless they can afford to sustain the facilities you all slag off so easily in this thread, then none of you will be able to complete your courses and none of the instructors will have jobs.
How many other "reputable" flight schools have you seen go bust and walk off with their student's money? PTC is not likely to do that to you; so be grateful that the management are hard-nosed enough to protect your investment.
Okay, so there's some marketing "spin" about airline jobs and pass rates? We all know that. But so does every other school who wants your money. Actually, the pass rates aren't that far off! Whatever else you might say about PTC, the training standards are amongst the very best. Read back through this thread, and (occasionally) you will see how the instructors get a nod of approval amongst all the criticism.
Scheduling... is automated - with some tedious manual assistance. RTF is a bloody nightmare IMHO. Perhaps they should go back to a white board and a pen? But you see, that's not the most efficient way to handle resources. You might well get frustrated being thrust into group groundschool when the sun is shining, but hey... the groundschool still needs to be done and PTC still need to conduct the courses profitably. So quit moaning about it. You'll complete your courses in the end either way.
So you got a rude letter about your account? So grow up and pay up. We all get rude letters. My bank is positively obscene. So is the gas board. But if you want gas, you have to pay for it. There's nothing in the contract to say they have to be nice about it!
As far as jobs are concerned, you all seem to expect these things to be handed to you on a plate! Get real. After walking out of the CAA office with my ATPL (Frozen) **** years ago, I spent the next 3 years trying to get a job. Either you graduated at the same time that the airlines were hiring, or you just graduated. 3 months later, the airlines would be looking for the next bunch of students and you were just academic "history". At least PTC have actually forged productive relationships with some airlines and that genuinely gives you all a head start. But nothing, I repeat, nothing is guaranteed. Jobs have, (and always will), depend on the economy, timing, luck and - not least - YOU applying yourselves in the broadest possible sense to your chosen discipline and the task of wearing out shoe-leather.
You would be forgiven for thinking that I have no sympathy with some of the many grievances expressed here. In fact I have a lot of sympathy. I sympathise with those ground-school instructors at PTC Ireland, some of whom were made redundant recently. I sympathise with everyone, Students and Instructors alike, who feel that they have been badly treated. I think there are many areas where PTC management can improve their corporate communications, both in style and in effectiveness. Their operations also have plenty of room for improvement, not least in making RTF a LOT more flexible than it is at present.
You are free to disagree of course but despite everything, my opinion about PTC is that they ARE committed to providing the best service to the student that they can, at the price that they have quoted. They don't always get it right, for sure, and certain individuals can get understandably frustrated.
But they are working on it and the product they have right here and right now is still amongst the best that the flight training industry has to offer. When the PTC facility in Florida finally re-opens its doors in the new year, there will be nothing else out there to touch it!
So along with anonymity comes the responsibility for the sender to kindly confine their comments to things they know something about, and for the receiver to use some common sense and intelligence in filtering the information before responding.
Having sat on the sidelines of this conversation for a while, I feel compelled to set a few things straight about PTC. Due to the layout of this thread, I will do this in reverse chronological order.
PTC get charged every time the fuel truck is called over, so it saves them a few bob not to refuel after every flight
...with 2 people in the front seats and no ballast or pax, those seminoles are fairly close to the forward cg limit with full fuel, and the arm moves further forward the more fuel you burn, so im guessing the iaa may have something to say about their weight and balance sheet, as well as the whole lack of any fuel reserves, or any fuel at all for that matter!
Less Fuel is better from a Weight and Balance point of view, not worse as you suggest.
Needless to say, on the flight in question, neither that aircraft's characteristic BEM, nor it's loading were limiting factors!
cost cutting PTC style!!
...mayday somewhere near Hook Head apparently
Ah ok, so you were lying on the other thread then
How dare you flame Keygrip in that way!!! Taught by Airline Captains for your PPL at FSI were you? First time passes, in your ground exams eh? ...and your flight test! WOW! Good for you. So... you've been in this industry now for, well let's see, 5 minutes? You obviously know what you're talking about then.KeyGrip has been in this industry for many many years. He has more hours than many of those "airline captains" at FSI you're so smug about. Indeed, he has worked with FSI many years before PTC was born. Yet, he is TOTALLY independant of PTC, FSI the IAA or the FAA. In fact, without giving too much away, his actual job depends on this.
So whatever your grievances against PTC, don't take them out on Keygrip! His analysis is completely correct. PTC pulled out of FSI because FSI didn't meet the standards required.
This is public information, so for the record, PTC are now based at FIT in Melbourne Florida, (who mentioned Australia???... good grief
). FIT is maybe not as publicly well-known as FSI, but they are renowned as a NASA training facility. (Their current Dean is a former astronaut). Without comparing the length of everyone's personal credentials at PTC (FL) with those at FSI, let me just say that one of the PTC groundschool instructors is a former NASA test-pilot and the others are equally well experienced in their own ways.
What a joke. The standards of professionalism and quality of training/facilities at flight safety are a thousand times higher than those of PTC. Every single student that has graduated from the 0-atpl course will tell you that.
FSI focuses on the student, PTC focuses on how much money they can extract from the student.
FSI focuses on the student, PTC focuses on how much money they can extract from the student.
But a word of warning... The grass always seems greener on the other side. Having done all of my training on the modular route and having worked in the industry now for many years, I have seen none better than PTC when it comes to standards. That includes places like Oxford and Cabair, who also have facilities in the USA. Indeed, if you think resources, timescales, and costs are a "joke" at PTC, you should experience the joys of being a modular student in Goodyear Arizona or Kissimmee Florida, or Kidlington / Cranfield for that matter.
All of the more vocal complainants in this thread can't see this of course. Their noses are pressed firmly up against the windows at Waterford watching the ATRs fly in and out of the persistent rain and low overcast which we're blessed with at present. Understandably, their problems are intensely personal to them, and they're missing the Florida Sunshine where everything was bright and beautiful while they were doing their PPLs at FSI. But they have no perspective. If you want to see disenchanted instructors and frustrated students, you need look no further... but if you did, you would find the same story told over and over in so many different ways.
That doesn't make it right, of course, but you see it's all relative. Sure, PTC management is like any other when it comes to running a business. Their backs are against the economic wall. But unless they can afford to sustain the facilities you all slag off so easily in this thread, then none of you will be able to complete your courses and none of the instructors will have jobs.
How many other "reputable" flight schools have you seen go bust and walk off with their student's money? PTC is not likely to do that to you; so be grateful that the management are hard-nosed enough to protect your investment.
Okay, so there's some marketing "spin" about airline jobs and pass rates? We all know that. But so does every other school who wants your money. Actually, the pass rates aren't that far off! Whatever else you might say about PTC, the training standards are amongst the very best. Read back through this thread, and (occasionally) you will see how the instructors get a nod of approval amongst all the criticism.
Scheduling... is automated - with some tedious manual assistance. RTF is a bloody nightmare IMHO. Perhaps they should go back to a white board and a pen? But you see, that's not the most efficient way to handle resources. You might well get frustrated being thrust into group groundschool when the sun is shining, but hey... the groundschool still needs to be done and PTC still need to conduct the courses profitably. So quit moaning about it. You'll complete your courses in the end either way.
So you got a rude letter about your account? So grow up and pay up. We all get rude letters. My bank is positively obscene. So is the gas board. But if you want gas, you have to pay for it. There's nothing in the contract to say they have to be nice about it!
As far as jobs are concerned, you all seem to expect these things to be handed to you on a plate! Get real. After walking out of the CAA office with my ATPL (Frozen) **** years ago, I spent the next 3 years trying to get a job. Either you graduated at the same time that the airlines were hiring, or you just graduated. 3 months later, the airlines would be looking for the next bunch of students and you were just academic "history". At least PTC have actually forged productive relationships with some airlines and that genuinely gives you all a head start. But nothing, I repeat, nothing is guaranteed. Jobs have, (and always will), depend on the economy, timing, luck and - not least - YOU applying yourselves in the broadest possible sense to your chosen discipline and the task of wearing out shoe-leather.
You would be forgiven for thinking that I have no sympathy with some of the many grievances expressed here. In fact I have a lot of sympathy. I sympathise with those ground-school instructors at PTC Ireland, some of whom were made redundant recently. I sympathise with everyone, Students and Instructors alike, who feel that they have been badly treated. I think there are many areas where PTC management can improve their corporate communications, both in style and in effectiveness. Their operations also have plenty of room for improvement, not least in making RTF a LOT more flexible than it is at present.
You are free to disagree of course but despite everything, my opinion about PTC is that they ARE committed to providing the best service to the student that they can, at the price that they have quoted. They don't always get it right, for sure, and certain individuals can get understandably frustrated.
But they are working on it and the product they have right here and right now is still amongst the best that the flight training industry has to offer. When the PTC facility in Florida finally re-opens its doors in the new year, there will be nothing else out there to touch it!
Last edited by LD Max; 4th Dec 2008 at 12:53.
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a797... What can I say. You really are a prized Twerp aren't you! How dare you flame Keygrip in that way!!! Taught by Airline Captains for your PPL at FSI were you? First time passes, in your ground exams eh? ...and your flight test! WOW! Good for you. So... you've been in this industry now for, well let's see, 5 minutes? You obviously know what you're talking about then.
How dare you flame Keygrip in that way!!! Taught by Airline Captains for your PPL at FSI were you? First time passes, in your ground exams eh? ...and your flight test! WOW! Good for you. So... you've been in this industry now for, well let's see, 5 minutes? You obviously know what you're talking about then.
How many other "reputable" flight schools have you seen go bust and walk off with their student's money? PTC is not likely to do that to you; so be grateful that the management are hard-nosed enough to protect your investment.
So you got a rude letter about your account? So grow up and pay up. We all get rude letters. My bank is positively obscene. So is the gas board. But if you want gas, you have to pay for it. There's nothing in the contract to say they have to be nice about it!
Look im finished with this argument....as far as ptc goes there's no smoke without fire. Lots of students have spoken out about some of the scandalous activities that go on within the company. You will be extremely hard pressed to find a single graduate or current student that would reccomend ptc to anybody considering starting training. Hopefully they will get their act together, because their reputation can only take so much of a beating before people stop enrolling and start looking elsewhere.
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a797
Although it's very childish, name-calling, sarcasm and personal insults serve a useful purpose in discussions of this nature.
a797 explained that mentioning achievements was intended to avoid being dismissed as some bitter student who couldn't handle the pace of the course blaming others for his/her own shortcomings. (An allegation not infrequently made in such discussions - perhaps justifiably on some occasions.)
I have very little direct experience of training but I am involved in an organisation which gives financial and other assistance to aspiring pilots. I chat with them regularly and inevitably hear about their good, bad and mixed experiences at UK schools and schools elsewhere. (Usually America, most commonly Florida.)
I have no reason to believe that the assessments posted by a797 and those agreeing with him are other than fair and accurate because they accord with what I've been told.
He didn't claim to be an expert in the training industry. He posted his personal experience of two schools in the hope that it might be helpful to others.
Learning about other people's experiences, and sometimes from other people's experiences, is one of PPRuNe's valuable features.
Of course there are sometimes people who have a grudge (reasonable or unreasonable) against a particular school - but that brings us back to the genral issue of making judgments about the credibility of the person posting.
FL
Although it's very childish, name-calling, sarcasm and personal insults serve a useful purpose in discussions of this nature.
- They provide a useful indication of the credibility (or otherwise) of the person doing it which enables shrewd readers to assess what weight (if any) should be attached to the rest of what they say.
- Genuinely independent and objective contributors are far less likely to resort to such behaviour. Those who are less independent than they would like readers to believe often do.
First time passes, in your ground exams eh? ...and your flight test! WOW! Good for you.
I have very little direct experience of training but I am involved in an organisation which gives financial and other assistance to aspiring pilots. I chat with them regularly and inevitably hear about their good, bad and mixed experiences at UK schools and schools elsewhere. (Usually America, most commonly Florida.)
I have no reason to believe that the assessments posted by a797 and those agreeing with him are other than fair and accurate because they accord with what I've been told.
So... you've been in this industry now for, well let's see, 5 minutes? You obviously know what you're talking about then.
Learning about other people's experiences, and sometimes from other people's experiences, is one of PPRuNe's valuable features.
Of course there are sometimes people who have a grudge (reasonable or unreasonable) against a particular school - but that brings us back to the genral issue of making judgments about the credibility of the person posting.
FL
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I am not at all surprised at a797's response to my comments, but since I really don't care, let me turn instead to Flying Lawyer.
Agreed. Surely you, as a "lawyer", can distinguish between defamation of character such as "You're a lier" and an admonishment such as "You're a Twerp". I think my response was quite fair under the circumstances. This boy needs to grow up - and if he is incapable of making the judgement himself, he needs to know that this behaviour is not acceptable.
Indeed, as you pointed out, his comments show his own bias quite strongly.
To which, m'lud, I would respectfully suggest amounts to "hearsay". Don't beleive everything you're told, because there are a number of agendas at play. Review the comments and just add up the number of emotive comments, which I think outweigh the concrete examples by an order of magnitude. For example (in no particular order):
So... this is what we've been told. So we just accept it do we? No intelligent probing of these statements?
Surely if *I*, as a customer of the Gas Board, dispute my £3,000 quarterly bill because it's summertime and I cook on Electric, do I not query it with Gas Board? Or do I go running off to vent my wrath in the media?
In *this* industry, the *professional* thing to do is to have a closed-door meeting with the management and work out the issues. Then... *maybe*, if they slam the door in your face, you might care to share your concerns, *professionally* in a forum such as this.
So when Keygrip said:
...a797 called him a Lier. You lawyers would call it "damaging the credibility of the defence witness", I suppose.
In fact, all a797 has achieved is to damage his own credibility. How helpful is that to others who are trying to get a broad view of opinions? No. I'm sorry. a797 is *not* trying to be helpful to others. He is trying to force his own childish views down everyone's throat and flaming those who don't agree with him.
Although it's very childish, name-calling, sarcasm and personal insults serve a useful purpose in discussions of this nature.
They provide a useful indication of the credibility (or otherwise) of the person doing it which enables shrewd readers to assess what weight (if any) should be attached to the rest of what they say.
Genuinely independent and objective contributors are far less likely to resort to such behaviour. Those who are less independent than they would like readers to believe often do.
They provide a useful indication of the credibility (or otherwise) of the person doing it which enables shrewd readers to assess what weight (if any) should be attached to the rest of what they say.
Genuinely independent and objective contributors are far less likely to resort to such behaviour. Those who are less independent than they would like readers to believe often do.
Indeed, as you pointed out, his comments show his own bias quite strongly.
I have no reason to believe that the assessments posted by a797 and those agreeing with him are other than fair and accurate because they accord with what I've been told.
Looks like the **** has finally hit the fan, the more that speak out about this place the better.
I'll echo that, don't email them, they must have viruses, because I had a pretty new email address, and as soon as I emailed them nothing but spam.
The standards of professionalism and quality of training/facilities at flight safety are a thousand times higher than those of PTC.
Surely if *I*, as a customer of the Gas Board, dispute my £3,000 quarterly bill because it's summertime and I cook on Electric, do I not query it with Gas Board? Or do I go running off to vent my wrath in the media?
He didn't claim to be an expert in the training industry. He posted his personal experience of two schools in the hope that it might be helpful to others.
So when Keygrip said:
I'm neither discussing, nor have much interest, in the finance or the marketing (in this particular conversation), I'm talking purely the training and the standards required or achieved.
In fact, all a797 has achieved is to damage his own credibility. How helpful is that to others who are trying to get a broad view of opinions? No. I'm sorry. a797 is *not* trying to be helpful to others. He is trying to force his own childish views down everyone's throat and flaming those who don't agree with him.
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For the love of god.
Reguarding calling keygrip a liar, all i did was point to another thread about ptc where he clearly stated he had absolutely no connection what so ever to ptc, and a statement he made here saying he was directly involved with the training. He is responsible for his own words, i dont know him, or what he does and i dont give a flying **** either. I didnt "damage the credibility of the defence witness", he did that himself.
People can make their own minds up about ptc, and I think several graduates coming out saying the organisation is a scam makes a far more powerful statement than you and keygrip making aggressive rants at me.
Reguarding calling keygrip a liar, all i did was point to another thread about ptc where he clearly stated he had absolutely no connection what so ever to ptc, and a statement he made here saying he was directly involved with the training. He is responsible for his own words, i dont know him, or what he does and i dont give a flying **** either. I didnt "damage the credibility of the defence witness", he did that himself.
People can make their own minds up about ptc, and I think several graduates coming out saying the organisation is a scam makes a far more powerful statement than you and keygrip making aggressive rants at me.
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a797 said:
"People can make their own minds up about ptc, and I think several graduates coming out saying the organisation is a scam makes a far more powerful statement than you and keygrip making aggressive rants at me."
Exactly. That's the bottom line here. People considering PTC should consult with PTC students,past and present. These individuals, of which there are plenty here, are the only people who can describe to would be PTC students what it's like to be a student with this particular FTO.
Unless you were/are a PTC student you do not know what it's like to be a PTC student. If you are an outsider looking in, a PTC employee or a person connected to the FTO in some way you are of course entitled to your opinions however, I reiterate my earlier point, if you are currently considering PTC consult with PTC students.
No body else can speak on behalf of the students regarding what it's like to be a student there.
Tara.
"People can make their own minds up about ptc, and I think several graduates coming out saying the organisation is a scam makes a far more powerful statement than you and keygrip making aggressive rants at me."
Exactly. That's the bottom line here. People considering PTC should consult with PTC students,past and present. These individuals, of which there are plenty here, are the only people who can describe to would be PTC students what it's like to be a student with this particular FTO.
Unless you were/are a PTC student you do not know what it's like to be a PTC student. If you are an outsider looking in, a PTC employee or a person connected to the FTO in some way you are of course entitled to your opinions however, I reiterate my earlier point, if you are currently considering PTC consult with PTC students.
No body else can speak on behalf of the students regarding what it's like to be a student there.
Tara.
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797
The fact that you don't understand how, or why, doesn't change the fact that all the above *IS* correct. I have nothing to do with either PTC(FL) or PTC Waterford. I *am*, however, involved in their training and standards in Florida. No lies, no damage to credibility.
What *might* have damaged credibility, certainly as far as this thread goes, was the use of an attempted line of humour - which works in verbal conversation, but clearly not when used in this text (with no emotion in the voice). I had no intention of suggesting *YOU* were/are "stupid".
Let me finish my growls - I have no comment on PTC Waterford as a company (know nothing about them), I have no connection with PTC(FL), I *am* involved in their training - they may be a crap COMPANY - dunno.
What I do know is that PTC left FSI because the standard taught by the FAA instructors at FSI were NOT the standard required by PTC(FL) or the IAA (with regard to the CPL check rides). That bit is NOT open to question.
clearly stated he had absolutely no connection what so ever to ptc, and a statement he made here saying he was directly involved with the training. He is responsible for his own words, i dont know him, or what he does and i dont give a flying **** either. I didnt "damage the credibility of the defence witness", he did that himself.
What *might* have damaged credibility, certainly as far as this thread goes, was the use of an attempted line of humour - which works in verbal conversation, but clearly not when used in this text (with no emotion in the voice). I had no intention of suggesting *YOU* were/are "stupid".
Let me finish my growls - I have no comment on PTC Waterford as a company (know nothing about them), I have no connection with PTC(FL), I *am* involved in their training - they may be a crap COMPANY - dunno.
What I do know is that PTC left FSI because the standard taught by the FAA instructors at FSI were NOT the standard required by PTC(FL) or the IAA (with regard to the CPL check rides). That bit is NOT open to question.
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What I do know is that PTC left FSI because the standard taught by the FAA instructors at FSI were NOT the standard required by PTC(FL) or the IAA (with regard to the CPL check rides). That bit is NOT open to question.
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Actually... you're both right.
It goes to show how complex this business is. Visa issues were the last straw. FSI are a good FAA school, but not adaptable to the particular requirements and nuances of the JAA syllabus or the IAA approval. That covers a whole range of issues including VISAs.
PTC have tried to address this with FSI in a number of ways. But in the end PTC could not continue to operate it's business to the standards required without the full cooperation of FSI. Bottom line, PTC put the students' training programmes and standards first... at HUGE expense to the Company. They didn't have to do this, and if they didn't care, they would still be at FSI letting students get mucked about ad-infinitum.
Tarasky: You're absolutely right - but missing the point of my original growl. I started off by saying:
Keygrip started off by saying:
So if people like a797 will continue to stick their heads above the parapet, that's just fine. But when they say something that's just plain wrong, then they can expect to be told so! Perhaps Keygrip's use of the word "stupid" was inadvisable, (but nevertheless correct), - and knowing him was meant with a touch of Humour. Clearly that didn't come across.
What really bugs me is the fact that people like Keygrip have advocated and campaigned for many years to increase standards of training - especially in the USA. He deals with students every day, (many of them disgruntled), and in many cases takes their issues up personally, at his own cost, with various managements and the regulators. He is a moderator on this forum because he CARES about students like you, and a797.
What he doesn't deserve is to be called a liar, when all he is trying to do is give some balance to what has become a very unbalanced and one-sided conversation. Hence my growl at a797 and my attempt to clear-up some misconceptions.
I'm going to bow out of this conversation now because I have plenty of other things to do, including looking after my own. This is something I spend my entire waking hours doing too... looking after students and trying to solve their issues. But like most people, (including the PTC management I suspect), I am far more receptive to those who ask for help, rather than banging their fists on the table - if you catch my drift.
It goes to show how complex this business is. Visa issues were the last straw. FSI are a good FAA school, but not adaptable to the particular requirements and nuances of the JAA syllabus or the IAA approval. That covers a whole range of issues including VISAs.
PTC have tried to address this with FSI in a number of ways. But in the end PTC could not continue to operate it's business to the standards required without the full cooperation of FSI. Bottom line, PTC put the students' training programmes and standards first... at HUGE expense to the Company. They didn't have to do this, and if they didn't care, they would still be at FSI letting students get mucked about ad-infinitum.
Tarasky: You're absolutely right - but missing the point of my original growl. I started off by saying:
One of the privileges of anonymity in a forum such as this, is how it affords participants the ability to speak honestly and truthfully about heartfealt issues, without fear of sanction or repercussion. Unfortunately it also affords certain individuals the freedom to talk complete and utter BULL****.
I've always been a believer that everybody is entitled to their own stiupid opinion - and that includes you and yours.
What really bugs me is the fact that people like Keygrip have advocated and campaigned for many years to increase standards of training - especially in the USA. He deals with students every day, (many of them disgruntled), and in many cases takes their issues up personally, at his own cost, with various managements and the regulators. He is a moderator on this forum because he CARES about students like you, and a797.
What he doesn't deserve is to be called a liar, when all he is trying to do is give some balance to what has become a very unbalanced and one-sided conversation. Hence my growl at a797 and my attempt to clear-up some misconceptions.
I'm going to bow out of this conversation now because I have plenty of other things to do, including looking after my own. This is something I spend my entire waking hours doing too... looking after students and trying to solve their issues. But like most people, (including the PTC management I suspect), I am far more receptive to those who ask for help, rather than banging their fists on the table - if you catch my drift.
Last edited by LD Max; 6th Dec 2008 at 14:47.
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Jesus LDMAX, your post reeks of bull****. You are obviously very well connected with PTC. You seem to have that PTC employee ignorance, ignore what the students say, they ll shut up and put up.
What good is a NASA instructor to students who where pissed about by two know it all conversion students from New Zealand?!? My ATPL consoloadtion was taught to me by "instructors" that did not have their ATPL exams completed, that is a
ing joke. Some standards there!!
Standards in PTC may look excellent on paper, but they are not enforced. Each instructor has their own way of teaching, different standards and methods. I was lucky enough the have the former CFI, HOT and a senior instructor for my CPL/MEIR. I know many a students that was pissed about with Spanish instructors that could not speak English.
You said if a student feels exploited they can try else where? What a crazy statement, PTC students have to pay upfront, I had over 50,000 euro paid to them before I even started my CPL. Once you are in, you're traped! You have no access to financial statements, or account balances. All you get is threats if you don't pay up.
I don't expect a job to be handed to me on a goldent plate, but if PTC cannnot provide a guaranteed interview for students, then they should take the claim off their web page. There is 30+ of us sitting around with nothing, ALL OF US MADE THE STANDARD. How is that fair?? Did you notice its now 90% employment in two months as opposed to 98%?
As regards my rude letter about my account, I woul love to "grow up and pay up" IF MY BILL WAS CORRECT!!!!!!!! I have received 3 different statements, each for different amounts.
I do not know one student that has finished up with them that would recommend them to anyone. PTC staff and managment can post here all they like, but the students opinion will far outway their bull****. In a closing statement I hear a number of students are taking them to court, PM me with details, I love to join yous.
What good is a NASA instructor to students who where pissed about by two know it all conversion students from New Zealand?!? My ATPL consoloadtion was taught to me by "instructors" that did not have their ATPL exams completed, that is a
ing joke. Some standards there!! Standards in PTC may look excellent on paper, but they are not enforced. Each instructor has their own way of teaching, different standards and methods. I was lucky enough the have the former CFI, HOT and a senior instructor for my CPL/MEIR. I know many a students that was pissed about with Spanish instructors that could not speak English.
You said if a student feels exploited they can try else where? What a crazy statement, PTC students have to pay upfront, I had over 50,000 euro paid to them before I even started my CPL. Once you are in, you're traped! You have no access to financial statements, or account balances. All you get is threats if you don't pay up.
I don't expect a job to be handed to me on a goldent plate, but if PTC cannnot provide a guaranteed interview for students, then they should take the claim off their web page. There is 30+ of us sitting around with nothing, ALL OF US MADE THE STANDARD. How is that fair?? Did you notice its now 90% employment in two months as opposed to 98%?
As regards my rude letter about my account, I woul love to "grow up and pay up" IF MY BILL WAS CORRECT!!!!!!!! I have received 3 different statements, each for different amounts.
I do not know one student that has finished up with them that would recommend them to anyone. PTC staff and managment can post here all they like, but the students opinion will far outway their bull****. In a closing statement I hear a number of students are taking them to court, PM me with details, I love to join yous.
Last edited by flybearann; 8th Dec 2008 at 10:52. Reason: Comment regarding interviews withdrawn
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Okay... one more.
Flybearran:
1) No, my post was my genuine opinion.
(Edit: in the light of my following comment I should, perhaps, say categorically for the record that all my opinions and views expressed here are my own personal ones, and not necessarily that of PTC. I am certainly not authorised to speak on their behalf.)
2) I think the PTC management are probably sensible enough - unlike me - not to get emboilled in this public debate. But yes I am "connected" with PTC, (although perhaps not that "well"), but that gives me the insight to say that the *individuals* who work here, both front-line and back-office are all committed to serving the students' best interests.
3) PTC is pressing forward with all sorts of changes. New offices, new staff, new syllabi, new operational systems. Many of your concerns are already recognised and are being addressed. Progress demands change and PTC are not shy of it. They remain fully committed to getting things right and I should emphasise, that in most cases they do!
(Another first time pass today as it happens.)
4) Your story is obviously very real to you, and it grieves me to hear it. My comment wasn't about YOUR bill per-se, it was a general observation that when accounts get in arrears, then rude letters get sent out. It's unfortunate, sure, but nothing to get worked up about. But PLEASE DO take YOUR issue(along with any other similarly aggrieved students) to the management. Don't bang your fists on the table, just arrange a meeting - on your own or collectively - and raise these issues properly.
Flybearran:
1) No, my post was my genuine opinion.
(Edit: in the light of my following comment I should, perhaps, say categorically for the record that all my opinions and views expressed here are my own personal ones, and not necessarily that of PTC. I am certainly not authorised to speak on their behalf.)
2) I think the PTC management are probably sensible enough - unlike me - not to get emboilled in this public debate. But yes I am "connected" with PTC, (although perhaps not that "well"), but that gives me the insight to say that the *individuals* who work here, both front-line and back-office are all committed to serving the students' best interests.
3) PTC is pressing forward with all sorts of changes. New offices, new staff, new syllabi, new operational systems. Many of your concerns are already recognised and are being addressed. Progress demands change and PTC are not shy of it. They remain fully committed to getting things right and I should emphasise, that in most cases they do!
(Another first time pass today as it happens.)
4) Your story is obviously very real to you, and it grieves me to hear it. My comment wasn't about YOUR bill per-se, it was a general observation that when accounts get in arrears, then rude letters get sent out. It's unfortunate, sure, but nothing to get worked up about. But PLEASE DO take YOUR issue(along with any other similarly aggrieved students) to the management. Don't bang your fists on the table, just arrange a meeting - on your own or collectively - and raise these issues properly.
Last edited by LD Max; 6th Dec 2008 at 13:23.
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Congrats on the first time pass, I myself got first time passes in every flight test. I bet that student has been promised the sun moon and stars as well?
We are all entitled to our own view on PTC, your view comes from that of the employee/connected side of PTC. Approaching PTC for a meeting is not as easy on our side. We will be accused of "not making the standard" or "you have to go about it yourself" or "you are on a very short list for an interview" or "we'll get so and so to sign that off for you now"(I finished up over half a year ago and you have yet to sign it?).
Every time I had a meeting with senior staff in PTC I was fed bull**** to shut me up and stop me from complaining. I don't see how that shows the students best interests are at heart? Maybe they are no longer there, but managent are/where bullies. Its all about age down there aswell, if you where under 25 you where ignored, over 25, your concerns where listened to.
I do hope what you say is true about PTC, but its no good to me or other students that got pissed about. Many a change was implmented while I was a student there, and no good came of it. PTC is a not a well run flight school. Instruction was decent for CPL and IR, but I was just lucky to get a good instructor. Based on my experience and observation of how others where treated, I would encourage people to stay away. I was given a handbook and a bill when I left PTC, a real Irish "all the best now cheers for your money".
I am annoyed over the way I have been treated by PTC, and I feel the need post about my experience to warn others, cheers PPRUNE
We are all entitled to our own view on PTC, your view comes from that of the employee/connected side of PTC. Approaching PTC for a meeting is not as easy on our side. We will be accused of "not making the standard" or "you have to go about it yourself" or "you are on a very short list for an interview" or "we'll get so and so to sign that off for you now"(I finished up over half a year ago and you have yet to sign it?).
Every time I had a meeting with senior staff in PTC I was fed bull**** to shut me up and stop me from complaining. I don't see how that shows the students best interests are at heart? Maybe they are no longer there, but managent are/where bullies. Its all about age down there aswell, if you where under 25 you where ignored, over 25, your concerns where listened to.
I do hope what you say is true about PTC, but its no good to me or other students that got pissed about. Many a change was implmented while I was a student there, and no good came of it. PTC is a not a well run flight school. Instruction was decent for CPL and IR, but I was just lucky to get a good instructor. Based on my experience and observation of how others where treated, I would encourage people to stay away. I was given a handbook and a bill when I left PTC, a real Irish "all the best now cheers for your money".
I am annoyed over the way I have been treated by PTC, and I feel the need post about my experience to warn others, cheers PPRUNE
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LD Max says he’s left the discussion.
In fairness to him I should explain that when I referred to people who resort to “name-calling, sarcasm and personal insults” I wasn’t referring only to him.
I also mentioned to people who are less independent and objective than they would like readers to believe. The two categories often overlap, but I readily concede LD didn't try to give the impression his comments were even remotely independent or objective.
“Don’t believe everything you’re told.”
I’m amused he should think I would. I urged readers to be cautious about assertions made.
However, that also applies to assertions by people who try to give the impression they are giving neutral advice when they are not.
Some recommendations/warnings about schools, both on this website and elsewhere, are based upon direct personal experience and some are based upon hearsay as LD describes it. It doesn’t follow that no weight should be attached to the latter. If the same or very similar comments come from a number of different sources then, at the very least, warning bells should ring loudly.
“Intelligent probing” of assertions is good advice but, again, it also applies to posts by people claiming to be independent.
“….. a number of agendas at play here.”
LD appears to want readers to believe that applies only to one side here - whereas people on the other side don’t have an agenda. That is where he and I differ.
“This boy needs to grow up - and if he is incapable of making the judgement himself, he needs to know that this behaviour is not acceptable.”
This boy.
Not acceptable to whom?
“In *this* industry, the *professional* thing to do is …… etc.”
LD was rather coy about how long he’s actually been in the industry. For some reason, he referred to obtaining his “ATPL (Frozen) **** years ago”.
Curious.
I resist the temptation to speculate about whether that's because it’s so many years that he can’t remember, or so few years that he doesn’t want to reveal it while being so patronising to (and about) others.
“In fact, all a797 has achieved is to damage his own credibility.”
Not IMHO.
“a797 ………. is trying to force his own childish views down everyone's throat and flaming those who don't agree with him.”
Pots and kettles come to mind.
LD says Tarasky is missing the point.
I think he/she is spot on.
The point LD is missing is that this forum is for wannabees to ask questions and exchange information and experiences.
It is not for schools.
Nor is it for FI’s (or other professionals) who have a personal interest (direct or indirect) in defending/promoting a particular school.
Some parts of LD’s posts read like something straight out of advertising/promotional literature and, in one of his ‘delightfully moving tributes’ to PTC (I adopt a phrase used by Keygrip against a797), even claiming “there will be nothing else out there to touch” a new PTC facility which isn’t yet open.
So much for credibility.
FL
Edited for typos.
In fairness to him I should explain that when I referred to people who resort to “name-calling, sarcasm and personal insults” I wasn’t referring only to him.
I also mentioned to people who are less independent and objective than they would like readers to believe. The two categories often overlap, but I readily concede LD didn't try to give the impression his comments were even remotely independent or objective.
“Don’t believe everything you’re told.”
I’m amused he should think I would. I urged readers to be cautious about assertions made.
However, that also applies to assertions by people who try to give the impression they are giving neutral advice when they are not.
Some recommendations/warnings about schools, both on this website and elsewhere, are based upon direct personal experience and some are based upon hearsay as LD describes it. It doesn’t follow that no weight should be attached to the latter. If the same or very similar comments come from a number of different sources then, at the very least, warning bells should ring loudly.
“Intelligent probing” of assertions is good advice but, again, it also applies to posts by people claiming to be independent.
“….. a number of agendas at play here.”
LD appears to want readers to believe that applies only to one side here - whereas people on the other side don’t have an agenda. That is where he and I differ.
“This boy needs to grow up - and if he is incapable of making the judgement himself, he needs to know that this behaviour is not acceptable.”
This boy.
Not acceptable to whom?
“In *this* industry, the *professional* thing to do is …… etc.”
LD was rather coy about how long he’s actually been in the industry. For some reason, he referred to obtaining his “ATPL (Frozen) **** years ago”.
Curious.
I resist the temptation to speculate about whether that's because it’s so many years that he can’t remember, or so few years that he doesn’t want to reveal it while being so patronising to (and about) others.
“In fact, all a797 has achieved is to damage his own credibility.”
Not IMHO.
“a797 ………. is trying to force his own childish views down everyone's throat and flaming those who don't agree with him.”
Pots and kettles come to mind.
LD says Tarasky is missing the point.
I think he/she is spot on.
The point LD is missing is that this forum is for wannabees to ask questions and exchange information and experiences.
It is not for schools.
Nor is it for FI’s (or other professionals) who have a personal interest (direct or indirect) in defending/promoting a particular school.
Some parts of LD’s posts read like something straight out of advertising/promotional literature and, in one of his ‘delightfully moving tributes’ to PTC (I adopt a phrase used by Keygrip against a797), even claiming “there will be nothing else out there to touch” a new PTC facility which isn’t yet open.
So much for credibility.
FL
Edited for typos.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 7th Dec 2008 at 09:48.
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Before I start this post, I must stress that I am not here to comment on what has happened in the past with PTC or peoples personal experiences with PTC, as I am in no position to do so.
However what I will say is that I am currently a student with PTC and PTC Florida, and feel that something should be said about the changes that are taking place out here. In MY experience the staff here at PTC Florida are trying their hardest and no more so than Mike Edgeworth to create a training program here that will be structured and better organised than previouse courses. With teaming up with FIT will also create a modern flying program as a CPL done on Simanols that bearly have 100 hours on them and are completly glass cockpit.
All I am saying is that if anyone who is thinking about PTC if you would like to PM me I will give you an unbiased view from some one who is going through the course as it happens.....and before people start shooting me down please refer to the opening statement, and I will stress PTC have got some issues that need addressing, however I believe the team here now are trying their hardest to put these right. Thanx all so I will step down and wait for the incoming Flack.
However what I will say is that I am currently a student with PTC and PTC Florida, and feel that something should be said about the changes that are taking place out here. In MY experience the staff here at PTC Florida are trying their hardest and no more so than Mike Edgeworth to create a training program here that will be structured and better organised than previouse courses. With teaming up with FIT will also create a modern flying program as a CPL done on Simanols that bearly have 100 hours on them and are completly glass cockpit.
All I am saying is that if anyone who is thinking about PTC if you would like to PM me I will give you an unbiased view from some one who is going through the course as it happens.....and before people start shooting me down please refer to the opening statement, and I will stress PTC have got some issues that need addressing, however I believe the team here now are trying their hardest to put these right. Thanx all so I will step down and wait for the incoming Flack.