IR Sim hours - do they count towards 200h TT for CPL issue?

[Simon150]

Hi,

Basic question but one I can't find the answer to in LASORS. Maybe one of you guy can help?

A good portion of the TE-IR is Sim. However, I don't know whether the Sim hours count towards Total Time (for the issue of a CPL for example, or anything else).

The best answer would be a point towards a CAA document that explains how Sim hours can be used.

regards

Simon

[sparks-flying]

From what I can remember, the sim time counts towards the IR but not the CPL

SF

[jb5000]

As sparks-flying says, the sim time counts towards the 55 hours (usually a maximum of 40), but you do need 200 hours in an aeroplane for the CPL issue.

[Vee One...Rotate]

I'm guessing the requirements for those undertaking an an-initio integrated fATPL course are different then as they are awarded an fATPL (CPL/MEIR/MCC) with less than 200 hours actual flight time (although over 200 hours combined flight/sim time) from the CAA...

[AlphaMale]

As sparks-flying says, the sim time counts towards the 55 hours (usually a maximum of 40), but you do need 200 hours in an aeroplane for the CPL issue.

Hmm

I've been told by a local school to get my PPL, Night, Class 1 medical, 14 ATPL exams and;

70 Hours PIC to commence the IR Course.
150 total hours to commence the CPL

Assuming I'll start my professional training with 70 Hours PIC training will consist of;

Multi Engine
6 hrs PA34

IR (55hrs)
30hrs Sim
25hrs PA34 Seneca

CPL (15hrs - IR Holders)
15hrs PA28R Arrow

I won't have 200hrs when I'm issued with a CPL? ... I'm probably missing something but I'd appreciate if somebody can point me in the right direction

[moggiee]

The FNPT2 at the school will have an approved "hours credit" towards the training on the courses. This will vary according to aircraft and "sim" types etc. and the approval for that FNPT2.

The school should be able to tell you what hours credit has been awarded to their organisation and their FNPT2 towards their courses.

Two schools on the same airport could have different approval levels - it varies from FTO to FTO.

[sparks-flying]

I think you need 70 hrs PIC to commence IR alone, but will need 100 hrs PIC for CPL issue.

Sparks

[tom_ace]

yeah, for CPL issue you need 200 hours total, 100 hours P1 (amongst other things), so you can find yourself passing the skills test then needing to build 25 hours..like i did!

[AlphaMale]

Probably a silly question here but are there any PIC hrs in doing the PPL? like the solo or test flights?

I'm tempted by the IMC during my hour building too but will I get any PIC time?

I'm just trying to sum up how much hour building I'll need between PPL+Night and Multi-IR? (keep in mind I'll be doing the CPL last).

Thanks guys.

[Mikehotel152]

Simon,

It's a great question and one that I've just been grappling with.

My FTO has two options: ME/IR/CPL or CPL ME/IR. I was going to do the latter and do 100 hours hour-building. I then discovered that the other route apparently required only 70 hours hour-building. On paper the difference between the two routes clearly relates to the higher TT and P1 hours needed to commence the CPL.

But I totted up the hours accumulated on the different options and, despite the complications of flight time 'credits' that can be applied for on completion of the respective courses, the IR before CPL route seems to leave you with only 176 hours TT (plus 46 sim hours).

I don't get it. My FTO has a very detailed brochure listing the pre-course requirements, course content and licencing requirements but doesn't explain this point. It's evident if you read between the lines that you will have to build those hours at some stage to get your licence issued. Why doesn't the FTO say more about this point!?

I shall be looking into this with them and will report back!

[edymonster]

Hi guys,

I went the route of ME/IR then CPL in my training. If you go this route your more than likely need to hour build at the end of all your training to get 200 hours in aircraft and 100 of that P1. I had about 30 hours to build, but i did it during my course and a few weeks after so didn’t really delay me.

I think the reason some people go this route is because it is slightly cheaper I believe. If you go for the CPL before ME/IR you end up with about 230 hours total at the end of it all. I finished all my training with 206 hours so that was 24 hours less flying time hence 24 hours less money spent. And if people say that you need to do the CPL before ME for experience as it makes you a better pilot I disagree, I passed both first time in minimum hours and I felt neither were really related to each other. There is only a bit done in the CPL with the foggles on but it is rather simple stuff.

[BillieBob]

Yet again LASORS is at odds with JAR-FCL 1 - you really would think that, after 6 years of trying, even the CAA could get it right.

JAR–FCL 1.155(b)(1) states "An applicant for a CPL(A) who is not a graduate from an integrated flying training course shall have completed as a pilot on aeroplanes having a certificate of airworthiness issued or accepted by a JAA Member State at least 200 hours of flight time." It is pretty clear, therefore, that STD time cannot be counted towards the required 200 hrs flight time for CPL issue.

[Mikehotel152]

Thanks for the info Edymonster. It does seem the slightly cheaper route according to the FTO documentation even if the initial lower outlay for hour-building is balanced by the later costs of top-up hour-building to get your 200 hours.

My PPL Instructor's initial reaction when I asked about doing the ME, then IR, and then CPL was to say it was a big step up and might be difficult. Your experience suggests it's do-able.

I might revisit my initia thoughts, which were to do the initial 70 hours hour-building in SEP, then ME in order to do the remaining 30 hours in a twin, then CPL, then IR. Good plan?

[edymonster]

Again I had no problem with going the ME/IR before CPL route. I think the way it will work is if you have a really good FTO that has a lot of experience doing it that way. The school I went to, do it that way normally. I don’t know why but it was just the case.

I will say that doing it that way is not ideal for everyone some people may struggle and you really need to understand your own flying capabilities before you embark going that route. I did some really good hour building before hand that helped me a lot.

Doing the extra 30 hours in the twin may be good but will up the cost a fair bit. I don't know what your plans are after you get your qualifications but does an airline really want to see an extra 30 hours in a twin??? I mean is it going to really put you above the rest of the candidates applying who have the bog standard 30 hours twin time after training, That’s what you need to find out.

[outside_loop]

i would have been in this situation too but had gliding hours which can be counted towards cpl issue, 30 hrs of it anyway (read the small print in lasors if this applies to you). you do need 200hrs total to get the cpl.

also - if you want to do the 50hr ir course (for a cpl holder) rather than the 55hr course, you must fulfil ALL the requirements for cpl issue, including the 200hr bit - not just have passed the cpl test. but you dont actually have to physically have the licence issued.