Visas and USA training
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: bristol
Visas and USA training
Have searched the threads for more info on this but not found anything, so was hoping someone out there might know more.
So here is the scenario.
Am now looking to do my flight training out in the USA. I need a JAA PPL (its a condition in order to get my class two CAA medical converted to a class one via their deviation policy)
Would it be possible to do the JAA PPL with a JAA approved school out in the USA. Once I have my JAA PPL, can I then transfer my visa to another school in order to get the FAA ATPL. (I know in order to get the JAA fATPL I would need to come back to JAR-land to get the IR conversion.)
Alternatively would it be possible to do the JAA PPL on a J1 and then go back later and go from PPL the ATPL on the M1 at a different school. Not sure how feasible that is though.
The other option i was thinking was to somehow convert an FAA PPL to JAA PPL. Although not sure how to do that whilst out in the USA ? Is there any restrictions on how and when you can return to visit your home country whilst on a J1/M1 visa? Also got an important family wedding so would like to make sure i could come back for that.
Any advice that can be provided would be greatly appreciated.
R2F
So here is the scenario.
Am now looking to do my flight training out in the USA. I need a JAA PPL (its a condition in order to get my class two CAA medical converted to a class one via their deviation policy)
Would it be possible to do the JAA PPL with a JAA approved school out in the USA. Once I have my JAA PPL, can I then transfer my visa to another school in order to get the FAA ATPL. (I know in order to get the JAA fATPL I would need to come back to JAR-land to get the IR conversion.)
Alternatively would it be possible to do the JAA PPL on a J1 and then go back later and go from PPL the ATPL on the M1 at a different school. Not sure how feasible that is though.
The other option i was thinking was to somehow convert an FAA PPL to JAA PPL. Although not sure how to do that whilst out in the USA ? Is there any restrictions on how and when you can return to visit your home country whilst on a J1/M1 visa? Also got an important family wedding so would like to make sure i could come back for that.
Any advice that can be provided would be greatly appreciated.
R2F
Joined: May 2007
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From: U.K.
Any school that can do the JAA PPL in the US will also be able to do the FAA licences. Getting your visa transferred is not straightforward.
I can't quite see why you want to do an FAA ATP if your aim is to obtain a JAA fATPL. Unless you're already an airline pilot, the only FAA qualification that has any real conversion value is the IR. Even the Commercial isn't really worth the cost and hassle of obtaining it.
Regarding the M-1 and J-1, both are multi-entry so you shouldn't have any problems in that regard. There are not many schools that can issue the J-1 and it is meant for people who wish to hour build as an instructor, normally for up to two years, to obtain an FAA ATP. This does not convert to a JAA ATPL though unless, as I have already said, you have a reasonable amount of airline experience. You will only get the same terms as someone with a Multi-Engine Commercial and Instrument.
I can't quite see why you want to do an FAA ATP if your aim is to obtain a JAA fATPL. Unless you're already an airline pilot, the only FAA qualification that has any real conversion value is the IR. Even the Commercial isn't really worth the cost and hassle of obtaining it.
Regarding the M-1 and J-1, both are multi-entry so you shouldn't have any problems in that regard. There are not many schools that can issue the J-1 and it is meant for people who wish to hour build as an instructor, normally for up to two years, to obtain an FAA ATP. This does not convert to a JAA ATPL though unless, as I have already said, you have a reasonable amount of airline experience. You will only get the same terms as someone with a Multi-Engine Commercial and Instrument.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: bristol
PIC
Thank you for your reply
The problem I have is I am not to keen to do all my training at any of the schools authorised by the CAA to offer the JAA ATPL. (I've not been happy with what I've heard about them). I was hoping just to get my PPL with one of them and then do the remainder at one that offers FAA ATPL and then convert.
Do you think its worth looking more into how to convert the FAA PPL to a JAA PPL and see if that is possible whilst I am out there. Ultimately I'll need the JAA PPL in order to get the Class One which permits me to do any trraining for the conversion in JAR-land.
Good news about the multi-entry aspect. Just now got to make sure I dont have any major study commitments for the days when I need to be back in blighty.
Thank you for your reply
The problem I have is I am not to keen to do all my training at any of the schools authorised by the CAA to offer the JAA ATPL. (I've not been happy with what I've heard about them). I was hoping just to get my PPL with one of them and then do the remainder at one that offers FAA ATPL and then convert.
Do you think its worth looking more into how to convert the FAA PPL to a JAA PPL and see if that is possible whilst I am out there. Ultimately I'll need the JAA PPL in order to get the Class One which permits me to do any trraining for the conversion in JAR-land.
Good news about the multi-entry aspect. Just now got to make sure I dont have any major study commitments for the days when I need to be back in blighty.
Joined: May 2007
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From: U.K.
What you have to remember is that most of the FAA-only places in the US are not geared for foreigners and cannot issue the I-20 that you need to get the visa. There are some exceptions but not that many.
Not all the JAA places have poor reputations. I don't want to say that you should go to one place or the other but I have flown in US before and I can confidently say that there are good JAA schools. Like I said before, the only FAA rating that is worth getting to use for conversion is the IR but if you want to do this in one trip you will need to sit both PPL tests as the CAA don't issue Temporary Airman Certificates.
One other thing that you might want to consider is the difference between Part 61 and Part 141 schools. It doesn't make much difference at PPL but there is a big difference with the IR in that under 141 you don't need the 50 hrs X-country PIC time. The definition of X-country is very different in the US from what it is here.
Not all the JAA places have poor reputations. I don't want to say that you should go to one place or the other but I have flown in US before and I can confidently say that there are good JAA schools. Like I said before, the only FAA rating that is worth getting to use for conversion is the IR but if you want to do this in one trip you will need to sit both PPL tests as the CAA don't issue Temporary Airman Certificates.
One other thing that you might want to consider is the difference between Part 61 and Part 141 schools. It doesn't make much difference at PPL but there is a big difference with the IR in that under 141 you don't need the 50 hrs X-country PIC time. The definition of X-country is very different in the US from what it is here.
Registered User **
Joined: Nov 2007
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From: Tokyo, Japan
Converting FAA fATPL into JAA fATPL is not possible unless you have more than 1500 hours PIC or co-pilot on commercial transport (linked to a type-rating).
You won't get 1500 hours PIC or co-pilot unless you get hired in the US for at least 2 years...
I know it sucks but it's not me makin up these rules: http://www.jaat.eu/publications/jars/607069.pdf
Read 1-A-19
If you want to have a cereer in Europe, I suggest you do your full training in JAA.
Also, no school in the USA will permit visa transfers, because they gave you the visa to come and study with them, and they don't want to get involved in security problems, which will lead them to lose the visa issuing rights, and therefore cancel your visa when you leave their school.
Under certain circumstances you can use a travel visa to get instruction.
You won't get 1500 hours PIC or co-pilot unless you get hired in the US for at least 2 years...
I know it sucks but it's not me makin up these rules: http://www.jaat.eu/publications/jars/607069.pdf
Read 1-A-19
If you want to have a cereer in Europe, I suggest you do your full training in JAA.
Also, no school in the USA will permit visa transfers, because they gave you the visa to come and study with them, and they don't want to get involved in security problems, which will lead them to lose the visa issuing rights, and therefore cancel your visa when you leave their school.
Under certain circumstances you can use a travel visa to get instruction.
Joined: May 2007
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From: U.K.
Nichibei
I believe you are technically correct about being able to do some flying training without an M-1 or J-1 visa (studying less than 18 hrs per week) but I wouldn't like to argue the case with a CBP officer at the airport. Besides, the TSA will not clear you if they find out you don't have a student visa.
I believe you are technically correct about being able to do some flying training without an M-1 or J-1 visa (studying less than 18 hrs per week) but I wouldn't like to argue the case with a CBP officer at the airport. Besides, the TSA will not clear you if they find out you don't have a student visa.
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Europe
m1
you MUST have an M1 visa for flight training in the USA, you must be registered with the Transport Security Administration and also the Student and Exchange Visitor Information System. This is a lenghty process and can be costly to be transfered.
W2
W2
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: In a shoe box
There is no such thing as a FAA fATPL. You can get a CPL/IR but need 1500 hrs for an FAA ATP. The only point in getting an ATP from the FAA would be if you met the requirements to make the conversion easier as I believe someone has posted previously.
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: Portsmouth, UK
Not sure why you are looking at FAA ATP and JAA training?? It is also very interesting about the CAA wanting a PPL to issue a Class 1 on deviation - can I ask why? Does the PPL have to be a JAA PPL as you can start the JAA ATP written exams with an FAA PPL and in fact never get a CAA PPL.
To clear a few things up. You can convert an FAA PPL to a CAA PPL by doing two written exams and a RT test and Flight test if you have more than 100 hours TT, in my mind, you might as well do the other writtens!
To do ANY flight training in the US you need a student Visa ie M1 or J1 and you can therefore only go to a school that can offer an I-20. Not all courses need TSA though - I don't think CPL does! see www.flightschoolcandidates.gov
Look at what licence you really need - the US can cost you more in the long run with TSA, travel etc and more training than you expect on return home. If you need an FAA ATP, then forget about the JAA at present and concentrate on the FAA route with a J1 visa. I would also look into how the EASA might affect your class 1 deviation when they take over flight crew licensing in 2009.
All the best mate
To clear a few things up. You can convert an FAA PPL to a CAA PPL by doing two written exams and a RT test and Flight test if you have more than 100 hours TT, in my mind, you might as well do the other writtens!
To do ANY flight training in the US you need a student Visa ie M1 or J1 and you can therefore only go to a school that can offer an I-20. Not all courses need TSA though - I don't think CPL does! see www.flightschoolcandidates.gov
Look at what licence you really need - the US can cost you more in the long run with TSA, travel etc and more training than you expect on return home. If you need an FAA ATP, then forget about the JAA at present and concentrate on the FAA route with a J1 visa. I would also look into how the EASA might affect your class 1 deviation when they take over flight crew licensing in 2009.
All the best mate
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From: Tokyo, Japan
Member "pilot in command" is right about the ability of receiving less than full time instruction on a tourist visa (up to 18 hours a week)
You can get the few hours of ground instruction and check-rides needed when you go there for hour building, without needing to apply at TSA, because you are going there for "air-tourism" (don't say that at the customs
)
If you want to start any training such as PPL or higher, you will need a student visa and registration with TSA.
In my opinion, these TSA rules will disappear soon though, as market needs will compromise security or let's face it, the feeling of security. There's one day that they'll wake up at TSA and realise that terrorists can get student visa's if they wish to, or learn aircraft steering procedures from books and practise on Flight Simulator.
TSA has been created in the wake of 9/11 to avoid similar things happening again... it wouldn't surprise me if the next presidentials comes up with more rational ways to combat terrorism.
Had the 2001 elections had another winner, I'm not sure 9/11 would have happened and aviation would have looked way better
You can get the few hours of ground instruction and check-rides needed when you go there for hour building, without needing to apply at TSA, because you are going there for "air-tourism" (don't say that at the customs
)If you want to start any training such as PPL or higher, you will need a student visa and registration with TSA.
In my opinion, these TSA rules will disappear soon though, as market needs will compromise security or let's face it, the feeling of security. There's one day that they'll wake up at TSA and realise that terrorists can get student visa's if they wish to, or learn aircraft steering procedures from books and practise on Flight Simulator.
TSA has been created in the wake of 9/11 to avoid similar things happening again... it wouldn't surprise me if the next presidentials comes up with more rational ways to combat terrorism.
Had the 2001 elections had another winner, I'm not sure 9/11 would have happened and aviation would have looked way better
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Joined: Nov 2007
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From: Tokyo, Japan
Yes and other rules like your country of residence has to be the same as your country of citizenship, you need to prove you have enough cash to survive, etc...
and the one that hurts most:
You may not receive any check-rides, you may not receive ground tuition, not 18 hours a week, not 1 hour a week, nada.
Plus the risk that they don't approve you to pass the borders because a little something makes you suspicious.(You didn't undergo background checks, so they do it the best they can over there, between the gates and the arrival halls, for hours, while you'll see many visaed people go past you...)
and the one that hurts most:
Visitors for business or tourism cannot work or study in the United States.
Plus the risk that they don't approve you to pass the borders because a little something makes you suspicious.(You didn't undergo background checks, so they do it the best they can over there, between the gates and the arrival halls, for hours, while you'll see many visaed people go past you...)
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Land of the Raj
Apart from the visa issues, the big stumbling block is TSA, you will be photographed and fingerprinted then a full background check. If any little thing comes up you can forget about any flying in the US and they will advise immigration of your attempt, also you will need an Airside Pass for the airport which means another background check!. TSA will not approve anyone unless their visa allows them to either study in the US or work.
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Land of the Raj
Yes, TSA will verify that you have the correct visa to allow flight training.
I am an FAA Instructor and Examiner so please take note so you do not waste your time and money. Also beware of people offering to do all this for you, they cannot.
The following is from the TSA website. AFSP is Alien Flight Student Program. I would suggest that any potential student go to the TSA website and read up on the regulations first. You do not need to log in to read the info and frequently asked questions.
Remember, it is the responsibility of every flight school or flight instructor to register you with the TSA and get approval before you can start any flight training. You are allowed to do ground training, ie the writtens..
Here is the link. https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/
Immigration Status Advisement
I am an FAA Instructor and Examiner so please take note so you do not waste your time and money. Also beware of people offering to do all this for you, they cannot.
The following is from the TSA website. AFSP is Alien Flight Student Program. I would suggest that any potential student go to the TSA website and read up on the regulations first. You do not need to log in to read the info and frequently asked questions.
Remember, it is the responsibility of every flight school or flight instructor to register you with the TSA and get approval before you can start any flight training. You are allowed to do ground training, ie the writtens..
Here is the link. https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/
Immigration Status Advisement
Last edited by kwachon; 6th January 2008 at 10:43. Reason: Addition of data
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 65
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From: U.K.
windforce
You need an FAA licence to fly in the US. Unfortunately, the days of just turning up at the FSDO and being given a licence are over. You need to go through a verification process which takes a few weeks and involves paying the CAA to release your details. All the info is on the FAA website.
You need an FAA licence to fly in the US. Unfortunately, the days of just turning up at the FSDO and being given a licence are over. You need to go through a verification process which takes a few weeks and involves paying the CAA to release your details. All the info is on the FAA website.