Advising a trainee PPL to give up?
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Advising a trainee PPL to give up?
I have a friend who wishes to do an ATPL. Unfortunately, even after 200 hours of instruction, he has not received his PPL. I have not flown with him, but have spoken with his instructors who all tell me that he has enormous problems with navigation due to very poor spatial orientation skills.
The instructors are all very good - no blame lies with them.
But my feeling is that if my friend cannot get a PPL after 200 hours, he really has no chance of getting an IR, and that he should give up now, especially as the cost of the training so far has forced him to sell his house and his wife has left him...
What do others think? Do slow learning PPLs ever make it eventually?
The instructors are all very good - no blame lies with them.
But my feeling is that if my friend cannot get a PPL after 200 hours, he really has no chance of getting an IR, and that he should give up now, especially as the cost of the training so far has forced him to sell his house and his wife has left him...
What do others think? Do slow learning PPLs ever make it eventually?
The Cooler King
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I think he should stop for a year.
There seems to be a human factors problem here as opposed to just "ability".
Wife out the door, financial problems.....and the mental strain that goes with it, makes it sound like a case of fatigue.
I would suggest a complete restart in twelve months. If he has passed all the exams then there is no problem with is theory retention.
I know that there are some who will never get there but I think there's more to this than there seems.
There seems to be a human factors problem here as opposed to just "ability".
Wife out the door, financial problems.....and the mental strain that goes with it, makes it sound like a case of fatigue.
I would suggest a complete restart in twelve months. If he has passed all the exams then there is no problem with is theory retention.
I know that there are some who will never get there but I think there's more to this than there seems.
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Tell him to sit the GAPAN tests to assess his ATPL potential.
Not only will the source of his problems become apparent, but also his debrief may set him on the right course of action (ie. giving up and no longer wasting money).
Not only will the source of his problems become apparent, but also his debrief may set him on the right course of action (ie. giving up and no longer wasting money).
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There's "slow learning PPLs" and then there's 200 hours, that's absolutely insane.
Sure we all learn at different paces, when I started off as a young instructor I believed that everyone could get the hang of it with enough practice, but after a few years' instructing and some of the things I saw, I changed my opinion. There have been several cases of people that I just know will NEVER make it no matter how much time and money they throw at it, they just haven't got the spare mental capacity / attention span / spacial orientation skills. Slightly un-pc to say so but it's true. I have given one poor student my honest advice to give up the dream before, it wasn't an easy thing to do but this individual was about to remortgage everything they owned and put the kids' education fund on the line to follow their dream they didn't basically have a hope in hell of achieving - and that was long before 200 hours had been logged (although it was somewhere after the 48 to first solo).
If your mate has received good instruction and hasn't got the hang of it by even half that amount of time, then someone should have given him a very serious talking to about where he's going with his career.
The PPL is the first small easy step on a very very long and difficult road and it gets a lot steeper and a lot harder from there on in.
Sure we all learn at different paces, when I started off as a young instructor I believed that everyone could get the hang of it with enough practice, but after a few years' instructing and some of the things I saw, I changed my opinion. There have been several cases of people that I just know will NEVER make it no matter how much time and money they throw at it, they just haven't got the spare mental capacity / attention span / spacial orientation skills. Slightly un-pc to say so but it's true. I have given one poor student my honest advice to give up the dream before, it wasn't an easy thing to do but this individual was about to remortgage everything they owned and put the kids' education fund on the line to follow their dream they didn't basically have a hope in hell of achieving - and that was long before 200 hours had been logged (although it was somewhere after the 48 to first solo).
If your mate has received good instruction and hasn't got the hang of it by even half that amount of time, then someone should have given him a very serious talking to about where he's going with his career.
The PPL is the first small easy step on a very very long and difficult road and it gets a lot steeper and a lot harder from there on in.
Difficult situation.
I have flown with people that went solo after 160 hrs, passed their PPL check ride with 240 hrs and went on to successfully complete an instrument rating and
and a Multi engine rating (VFR only).
They went on to buy an airplane, but they followed our advise and fly with a professional pilot. They are safe in a single engine VFR. They should never fly in actual IMC without supervision.
Do they intend to be career pilots? Absolutely not, they did it for the fun of it and fortunately for them, money was never an issue.
I once advised a student to stop after his PPL. Fortunately he decided not to listen and continued for all his ratings, he now flies for a charter outfit in the Caribbean.
Trouble with navigation is the unusual part, at least in my experience.
Usually it is the lack of mechanical aptitude or simply very brainy people that lack the coordination skills.
I think your friend has taken it very very far already. House gone and wife gone.....he should have gotten the clues earlier.
Agree with everybody else, stop for a while, get your life in order and your priorities straight and try again if the desire is still there.
I have flown with people that went solo after 160 hrs, passed their PPL check ride with 240 hrs and went on to successfully complete an instrument rating and
and a Multi engine rating (VFR only).
They went on to buy an airplane, but they followed our advise and fly with a professional pilot. They are safe in a single engine VFR. They should never fly in actual IMC without supervision.
Do they intend to be career pilots? Absolutely not, they did it for the fun of it and fortunately for them, money was never an issue.
I once advised a student to stop after his PPL. Fortunately he decided not to listen and continued for all his ratings, he now flies for a charter outfit in the Caribbean.
Trouble with navigation is the unusual part, at least in my experience.
Usually it is the lack of mechanical aptitude or simply very brainy people that lack the coordination skills.
I think your friend has taken it very very far already. House gone and wife gone.....he should have gotten the clues earlier.
Agree with everybody else, stop for a while, get your life in order and your priorities straight and try again if the desire is still there.
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I have a friend who wishes to do an ATPL. Unfortunately, even after 200 hours of instruction, he has not received his PPL. I have not flown with him, but have spoken with his instructors who all tell me that he has enormous problems with navigation due to very poor spatial orientation skills.
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My advise at the very least would be for him to take some time off flying.
I washed one of my students after she had 100 hours and hadn't gone solo... I'm sorry it actually boils down to the school being unethical to continue taking money from a student in this case. We actually advised her to tell her father who was funding that we advise against her continuing in this line of work. However told her that if he consented we would continue for another 10 hours maximum to try complete her training.
She left to another school who has absolutly no ethics because she is now over 200 hours and not completed. This a full time student who has been here for a year. She had all the heart in the world to do it, but not the abilitly, physically, or mentally.
It gets to a point where enough is enough, and instead of a school milking that last bit of money, to turn around and say, I think you should look into some other sort of training.
We had another student come to us with 160 hours and not gone solo, accumumlated at three other schools. We sold her only 10 hours, made it clrea that after this if she was no closer, that was it. After the ten hours she wasn't ready, the CFI sat her down and suggested she try something else. We recently got a ltter from her saying she was a hostie now and absolutly loving it!
I washed one of my students after she had 100 hours and hadn't gone solo... I'm sorry it actually boils down to the school being unethical to continue taking money from a student in this case. We actually advised her to tell her father who was funding that we advise against her continuing in this line of work. However told her that if he consented we would continue for another 10 hours maximum to try complete her training.
She left to another school who has absolutly no ethics because she is now over 200 hours and not completed. This a full time student who has been here for a year. She had all the heart in the world to do it, but not the abilitly, physically, or mentally.
It gets to a point where enough is enough, and instead of a school milking that last bit of money, to turn around and say, I think you should look into some other sort of training.
We had another student come to us with 160 hours and not gone solo, accumumlated at three other schools. We sold her only 10 hours, made it clrea that after this if she was no closer, that was it. After the ten hours she wasn't ready, the CFI sat her down and suggested she try something else. We recently got a ltter from her saying she was a hostie now and absolutly loving it!
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The 200 hundred hours and no PPL is a lesser issue here than the ethics of an FTO that would keep taking his money. Either he does not have what it takes, or their instructors can't get the job done. If the latter is true, then they should refund his money (I doubt the problem is poor instruction). If the former is the case, they should have had the cahones to tell him long ago and since they haven't, I question their ethics. I also have to question his common sense though, and lack of any of that is probably a far worse problem for a wannabe than difficulty with spatial orientation! Clearly he hasn't much sense if he's still plugging away at a PLL after 200 hours.
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Dear oh dear, there are questions, topics and issues relating to flight training and the subsequent career path but this is beyond 'full scale deflection'.
When keywords such as house gone, wife gone and you continue with your training with little or no improvement then it's time to take a moment of pause and ask yourself some grown up and mature questions. Life is like that and we don't always get what we want, I wish I could be the best athlete in the world but that isn't possible, I wish I could have an abundance of cash coming in like some of my wealthier relatives but no joy there neither. However it doesn't mean I need to start sacrificing the essentials in life in order to pursue what may sometimes appear to be an inpractical course, that's just weak character decision making. If said wife decides that she wants said pilot to qualify commercially after just 50 hrs then it's somewhat understandable as the licencing process is more involved and lengthy than that. But when you're doing laps and not really getting anywhere, what will happen when you come across the aspects of training from your employer such as interview sim assessments, LPC they won't just expect you to do it but see who the top candidates were on the day. Thus it's an issue of relativeness who would want to race when you're at the back of the grid with only 3 wheels and almost a full minute slower than anyone else.
There are numerous other aspects to aviation that this guy could get his teeth into, piloting is just the poster boy image of the industry. After all look at RAF recuitment campaigns they always say "you don't need to be a pilot to fly in the RAF", how true is that for not just RAF, civil aviation but other avenues in life as a whole. If adults could be assessed in this day and age then this guy's claims that he's started his PPL wouldn't mean a thing compared to the significant loss he's sustained and blindly continued.
Perhaps just get into the social scene of the PPL and fly dual with an instructor for days out to another airfield or something. That way he gets to keep his head in the clouds without the pressure of training and simply enjoys the flying without the financial costs of training.
Courses, exams and tests are there for a reason in life if you're still grappling with them after a prolonged period of time then the course has just told you something that the examiner won't need to.
I wish him well and if anything stop discussing the aviation non-issue because there's nothing to note nor debate. He urgently needs to redirect his attention to life rebuilding.
When keywords such as house gone, wife gone and you continue with your training with little or no improvement then it's time to take a moment of pause and ask yourself some grown up and mature questions. Life is like that and we don't always get what we want, I wish I could be the best athlete in the world but that isn't possible, I wish I could have an abundance of cash coming in like some of my wealthier relatives but no joy there neither. However it doesn't mean I need to start sacrificing the essentials in life in order to pursue what may sometimes appear to be an inpractical course, that's just weak character decision making. If said wife decides that she wants said pilot to qualify commercially after just 50 hrs then it's somewhat understandable as the licencing process is more involved and lengthy than that. But when you're doing laps and not really getting anywhere, what will happen when you come across the aspects of training from your employer such as interview sim assessments, LPC they won't just expect you to do it but see who the top candidates were on the day. Thus it's an issue of relativeness who would want to race when you're at the back of the grid with only 3 wheels and almost a full minute slower than anyone else.
There are numerous other aspects to aviation that this guy could get his teeth into, piloting is just the poster boy image of the industry. After all look at RAF recuitment campaigns they always say "you don't need to be a pilot to fly in the RAF", how true is that for not just RAF, civil aviation but other avenues in life as a whole. If adults could be assessed in this day and age then this guy's claims that he's started his PPL wouldn't mean a thing compared to the significant loss he's sustained and blindly continued.
Perhaps just get into the social scene of the PPL and fly dual with an instructor for days out to another airfield or something. That way he gets to keep his head in the clouds without the pressure of training and simply enjoys the flying without the financial costs of training.
Courses, exams and tests are there for a reason in life if you're still grappling with them after a prolonged period of time then the course has just told you something that the examiner won't need to.
I wish him well and if anything stop discussing the aviation non-issue because there's nothing to note nor debate. He urgently needs to redirect his attention to life rebuilding.
Last edited by boogie-nicey; 4th Sep 2007 at 12:51.
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This is one thing I hate about aviation in that people seem to become so obsessed with the goal that they are oblivious to everything and everyone else in their life. I wonder if it is a massive anti-climax when they get there.
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I guess we all know what he 'should' have done on this long journey but it is clear his dream is more important than any of the things he gave up. No doubt at each life changing event it made him question what he was doing - yet his choice remained the same.
There is no reason for him, even with 200 hours tuition, not to move on and complete an ATPL but I agree with everyone else, he needs to take a break, maybe get some flying in on maintenence flights so he can learn from observation. Give himself some thinking time to better understand the processes.
I was once told student performance is the best indicator of an instructor's ability. Ability being made up from years of training people with a wide variation of skills and problems. This knowledge should allow an instructor to know what the student is thinking, solving a problem by interupting an ingrained thought process [leading to a physical response] and replacing with the desired one.
You have a training aim, a fixed point, and there are defined steps to get the desired result. It's not rocket science to discover which of the steps is causing the problem and apply a suitable resolution [and practice] then move forward to the next issue. Maybe the school should have made the decision to give the guy a break and take him on observation/maintinence flights in the first place?
When someone has an issue and the instructor is unable to identify the root cause and apply a solution then they should have asked another instructor to assist. If the student is unable to make a 'step' toward a training outcome and no solution in the instructors' bag of tricks works then it's time to be honest and tell the student you are unable to train them past this specific issue.
At least the student can go away, knowing what the issue actually is, and ask other schools if they can help work this problem out. I bet there is an instructor out there who has trained someone else past this problem in the past.
There is no reason for him, even with 200 hours tuition, not to move on and complete an ATPL but I agree with everyone else, he needs to take a break, maybe get some flying in on maintenence flights so he can learn from observation. Give himself some thinking time to better understand the processes.
I was once told student performance is the best indicator of an instructor's ability. Ability being made up from years of training people with a wide variation of skills and problems. This knowledge should allow an instructor to know what the student is thinking, solving a problem by interupting an ingrained thought process [leading to a physical response] and replacing with the desired one.
You have a training aim, a fixed point, and there are defined steps to get the desired result. It's not rocket science to discover which of the steps is causing the problem and apply a suitable resolution [and practice] then move forward to the next issue. Maybe the school should have made the decision to give the guy a break and take him on observation/maintinence flights in the first place?
When someone has an issue and the instructor is unable to identify the root cause and apply a solution then they should have asked another instructor to assist. If the student is unable to make a 'step' toward a training outcome and no solution in the instructors' bag of tricks works then it's time to be honest and tell the student you are unable to train them past this specific issue.
At least the student can go away, knowing what the issue actually is, and ask other schools if they can help work this problem out. I bet there is an instructor out there who has trained someone else past this problem in the past.
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200 hours is ridiculous, and your friend's instructors and school(s) need a bloody good kick up the arse. It is not up to the student to decide that they are not the right stuff, it is up to the training organisation. If a student is struggling unusually hard, then they should be passed to a more experienced and senior instructor. If that instructor also has serious doubts about the wisdom of the student continuing, then he or she should have a frank discussion with the student and warn them that they will simply be throwing good money after bad. Unfortunately, that cash is very important to most schools...
Your friend can certainly try taking time off flying, but that's unlikely to improve whatever innate ability he has. If he has the talent, it should have bee discovered by now. If, as seems likely, he doesn't, then the fairest advice would be to suggest he gives up his ambition of flying commercially and makes efforts to earn his money elsewhere. If he insists, he can maintain his private flying under supervision, but without the pressure of it being the stepping-stone to a career. He needs to understand his limitations, and make the best of whatever other talents he has.
Scroggs
Your friend can certainly try taking time off flying, but that's unlikely to improve whatever innate ability he has. If he has the talent, it should have bee discovered by now. If, as seems likely, he doesn't, then the fairest advice would be to suggest he gives up his ambition of flying commercially and makes efforts to earn his money elsewhere. If he insists, he can maintain his private flying under supervision, but without the pressure of it being the stepping-stone to a career. He needs to understand his limitations, and make the best of whatever other talents he has.
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A little bit off topic, but I sometimes wonder how many people who pass the assessment for integrated courses would fall into the category discussed above. I know most of the FTOs will tell you that their assessment is designed so that only those with a very good chance of completing the course will be accepted, but as a potential applicant myself I wonder just how true that is. I guess you pays your money and you takes your chance...
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I agree with Scroggs, 200 hours training and not yet worth a PPL demonstrates that he is not going to get one. Basic navigation is not difficult and if this is why he is not capable he is probably dyslexic. Spatial disorientation seems hard to understand.
200 hrs of anyone's money equates to around £20,000. It is outrageous that the instructors and school are still taking his money.
However, I cannot get my head round such a story and wonder how it can be true.
200 hrs of anyone's money equates to around £20,000. It is outrageous that the instructors and school are still taking his money.
However, I cannot get my head round such a story and wonder how it can be true.
