Pilot Training Petition
Join Date: Feb 2005
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I do agree with scroggs on the skills v's knowledge, thats why i think something like the HNC would be comparable, you can do an HNC on anything from accounting to video production and anything in between.
Both the HNC and the fAtpl has practical skills as well as academic knowledge requirements.
As for the atpls exams being about remembering questions, well that is not what i did. I like to think i did learn and try to understand for the simple reason of being best equipped for interviews. Anyway its just how my brain operates, i need to know how something works not just that it does.
Boogie,
Why is it a good thing to weed out people just because of the amount of money they have, if that was the case i would never have got past the ppl. I spent years not flying and working abroad to finance my training after getting the bug on a trial flight.
I know of several of my students that have the ability to go a long way in this business, can not afford to do anything more than a hour a month at best.
Financial screening of future pilots results in only the rich flying, or those with large bank loans.
Both the HNC and the fAtpl has practical skills as well as academic knowledge requirements.
As for the atpls exams being about remembering questions, well that is not what i did. I like to think i did learn and try to understand for the simple reason of being best equipped for interviews. Anyway its just how my brain operates, i need to know how something works not just that it does.
Boogie,
Why is it a good thing to weed out people just because of the amount of money they have, if that was the case i would never have got past the ppl. I spent years not flying and working abroad to finance my training after getting the bug on a trial flight.
I know of several of my students that have the ability to go a long way in this business, can not afford to do anything more than a hour a month at best.
Financial screening of future pilots results in only the rich flying, or those with large bank loans.
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The cost of a fATPL is £30,000. That’s a good hurdle for many people – yet for those with true determination should be able to manage it with some careful financial planning over a time span of a few years.
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I personally know of many people who have made it in the aviation industry some of whom are actually related to me. They have all worked and saved their money in order to pay for their respective training. Alternatively I could argue why some people take a shortcut and attempt to get loans at such a young age? I can understand the urgency for those of a somewhat older bearing to get on without any delay in training.
However I resent any government nay public involvement with the payment of training. Granted I'd more than love to invite any proposals which cut VAT off training (though the FTOs would only go and hike up the prices anyway). There is no such thing as a free lunch and any government assistance will come with a burden of 'giving something back in return'
However I resent any government nay public involvement with the payment of training. Granted I'd more than love to invite any proposals which cut VAT off training (though the FTOs would only go and hike up the prices anyway). There is no such thing as a free lunch and any government assistance will come with a burden of 'giving something back in return'
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I know what you are saying about public money, but thinking about it, the amount of tax payed back into the public coffers by the aircrew community must be quite large. 
Anyway back to my original thoughts surely by allowing the use of the student loans system is better than people taking large personal loans from banks at high risk. I know it is sort of public money, well subsidised by govt, but surly if you can use it to do a degree in surfing why not flying.
Anyway if vat could be cut, without the Fto's putting the cost up that would help but it not going to happen.
Anyway back to my original thoughts surely by allowing the use of the student loans system is better than people taking large personal loans from banks at high risk. I know it is sort of public money, well subsidised by govt, but surly if you can use it to do a degree in surfing why not flying.
Anyway if vat could be cut, without the Fto's putting the cost up that would help but it not going to happen.
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Be careful what you wish for, while I would sure have loved to have had all my training paid for by the tax-payer, lowering the financial (& intellectual) hurdles would simply result in even more pilots chasing jobs and the subsequent deflation of pilots remuneration packages.
The argument that arts graduates are sponsored by the Government doesn’t have any weight either – two wrongs don’t make a right. The job of government is to distribute wealth and, in my opinion, it would be an irresponsible dereliction of their duty to be supporting private industry in this way.
Asking for a reduction in VAT is, I feel, a moral argument, but then morals bear no relation to taxation policy. The single biggest change I would support in the UK flight training industry would be to allow students to deduct training expenses from their income tax. This would encourage the more motivated career-changers and discourage the younger students to take out such enormous unsecured debt. It would also help to level the playing field between those who earned their money for training and those who simply had it paid for by parents.
And flying doesn’t come close to comparison with a degree. Whilst my flying exams weren’t easy, they only required a fraction of the cognitive ability that my engineering degree required.
The argument that arts graduates are sponsored by the Government doesn’t have any weight either – two wrongs don’t make a right. The job of government is to distribute wealth and, in my opinion, it would be an irresponsible dereliction of their duty to be supporting private industry in this way.
Asking for a reduction in VAT is, I feel, a moral argument, but then morals bear no relation to taxation policy. The single biggest change I would support in the UK flight training industry would be to allow students to deduct training expenses from their income tax. This would encourage the more motivated career-changers and discourage the younger students to take out such enormous unsecured debt. It would also help to level the playing field between those who earned their money for training and those who simply had it paid for by parents.
And flying doesn’t come close to comparison with a degree. Whilst my flying exams weren’t easy, they only required a fraction of the cognitive ability that my engineering degree required.
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Even with a good salary, that training debt is one hell of a mountain of cash that has to be paid back.Take my word for it!!!
Us new pilots know how to calculate landing distance given wind, density altitude & weight etc but many don’t seem to be able to calculate their loan repayments & amortization schedule given a principal amount & interest rate and subsequently how they’re going to feed themselves.
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I am not as much in favour of degree status for the fATPL as too many people would take the p**s as happened with the NVQ, possably something like an HND. But why not for the full unfrozen ATPL.
It is vocational, not academic, and no new research is yielded in an ATPL course.
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Hey guys and gals,
just out of interest, who would you write to in the governemnt for answers on this subject?
If you were to write a letter, what do you think the key points/questions should be? I'm quite tempted to do so, to get some questions answered from the horses mouth, but it may also draw some attention to the situation. With the current global warming issues, though, i think the government would put themselves in a very awkward situation if they were to contribute financial support towards this sort of thing.
It's interesting from both sides of the argument, and i'd be very, very interested to hear what the appropriate person would have to say about this issue.
just out of interest, who would you write to in the governemnt for answers on this subject?
If you were to write a letter, what do you think the key points/questions should be? I'm quite tempted to do so, to get some questions answered from the horses mouth, but it may also draw some attention to the situation. With the current global warming issues, though, i think the government would put themselves in a very awkward situation if they were to contribute financial support towards this sort of thing.
It's interesting from both sides of the argument, and i'd be very, very interested to hear what the appropriate person would have to say about this issue.
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Re-heat
I also hope that flight deck crew do not actively research new aviation fields in the course of their work. I do think that would be a tad unwise, interesting but unwise.
As for the cost weeding out people doing the training on a whim, but still makes it very hard if not imposable for kids with out the money.
V6g has a good idea, if you got a tax break for x amount of years to allow some of the training cost to be recovered. That would work very well with the new cpl holder doing ppl instructing. By having it come into effect when you start earning a wage from flying it would stop what happened with the old NVQ tax relief, when everyone doing a ppl was saying they were training for a professional license.
I also hope that flight deck crew do not actively research new aviation fields in the course of their work. I do think that would be a tad unwise, interesting but unwise.
As for the cost weeding out people doing the training on a whim, but still makes it very hard if not imposable for kids with out the money.
V6g has a good idea, if you got a tax break for x amount of years to allow some of the training cost to be recovered. That would work very well with the new cpl holder doing ppl instructing. By having it come into effect when you start earning a wage from flying it would stop what happened with the old NVQ tax relief, when everyone doing a ppl was saying they were training for a professional license.
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Further on the government funding aspect: in fact, the government will subsidise aviation-related degree studies. There are quite a few aerospace and aviation related courses available at degree level which attract exactly the same government funding as any other degree. However, the government will not subsidise the acquisition of professional skills for private industry - and I can't see that changing.
You may point to accountancy and legal degrees, but accountants and lawyers, like pilots, have to undergo a great deal of post-graduate training at their own expense before they can practise their professions. Flying ain't the poor relation! You'll find that those who elect to go to the Bar, for instance, can end up paying every bit as much as a pilot. The same is true even for those who, as mature students, go back to university to study medicine. Even those who take medicine straight from school are likely to end up with debts of £30k or more after 5 years of university, and that's for a socially-demanded and mandated occupation. Believe me - I've had to pay the bills!
Scroggs
You may point to accountancy and legal degrees, but accountants and lawyers, like pilots, have to undergo a great deal of post-graduate training at their own expense before they can practise their professions. Flying ain't the poor relation! You'll find that those who elect to go to the Bar, for instance, can end up paying every bit as much as a pilot. The same is true even for those who, as mature students, go back to university to study medicine. Even those who take medicine straight from school are likely to end up with debts of £30k or more after 5 years of university, and that's for a socially-demanded and mandated occupation. Believe me - I've had to pay the bills!
Scroggs
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Some interesting and well thought out posts. In particular the issue of linking training to some formm of tax incentive is the most attractive. However considering this near bankrupt New Labour administration I doubt they would ever entertain such an idea especially from the pilot faternity who are hardly core labour voters 
I also agree that the ATPL were difficult but compared to my Engineering Degree they were relatively easier. However that doesn't exempt aviation from attempting to find better ways in how course costs could be paid and how FTOs can reduce their costs. It all appears far too insular, other countries around the world seem to be cheaper than us why must we be burdened with high prices? i.e. conduct some courses overseas or some portion of the training that satisfies the CAA criteria for licence issue but keeps the training activity somewhere else and thus the UK taxman at bay. I am nopt advocating wholescale movement of training elsewhere but at least some components could be perhaps? Again the word here is innovation and UK FTOs need to start doing that.
I also agree that the ATPL were difficult but compared to my Engineering Degree they were relatively easier. However that doesn't exempt aviation from attempting to find better ways in how course costs could be paid and how FTOs can reduce their costs. It all appears far too insular, other countries around the world seem to be cheaper than us why must we be burdened with high prices? i.e. conduct some courses overseas or some portion of the training that satisfies the CAA criteria for licence issue but keeps the training activity somewhere else and thus the UK taxman at bay. I am nopt advocating wholescale movement of training elsewhere but at least some components could be perhaps? Again the word here is innovation and UK FTOs need to start doing that.
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Some FTOs already do what you suggest.
With some of the new combined ATPL/Degree courses the students get all of the normal benefits (student loans, defered payment, etc.) that are enjoyed by any other university students. But they still have to pay the full cost of the flying training element of their courses.
Some of the FTPOs doing these courses have also searched (unsuccesfully so far) for way of making the flying element of their courses VAT exempt.
Some FTOs also have facilities in places such as USA, Canada and Spain, to enable their students to enjoy reduced costs/taxation.
With some of the new combined ATPL/Degree courses the students get all of the normal benefits (student loans, defered payment, etc.) that are enjoyed by any other university students. But they still have to pay the full cost of the flying training element of their courses.
Some of the FTPOs doing these courses have also searched (unsuccesfully so far) for way of making the flying element of their courses VAT exempt.
Some FTOs also have facilities in places such as USA, Canada and Spain, to enable their students to enjoy reduced costs/taxation.
Thread Starter
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Unfortunately, as is apparent in every aspect of life, TAX taken off one thing re-appears as another thing. There's no way to avoid it.
I did have all kinds of ideas about taxation - including a realisation that a higher tax bracket was unfair, and so those in well paid jobs could pay less tax by 'opting out' of certain aspects, maybe agreeing not to use the NHS or state schools. Apparently that doesn't fit with the masses. And, in truth, would only lead to higher fuel or beer costs!
But I really can't be shaken in my view that a standard student loan should be available if you're undertaking study. Because that's what ATPL students are - students.
I feel the alternative is to say that they are unemployed people actively training for a job, and should be allowed a "jobseekers' allowance".
Another seriously legitimate idea is, as hinted at by Topslide6, cost of such professional training be, to whatever extent possible, retrospectively refunded by the employer. It's a seriously unfortunate state of affairs when such companies are allowed to profit to such an extent by not having to train their own workforce.
This is without going on to the subject of FI pay - another can of worms. Needless to say, there can't be too many jobs with so few progression opportunities which require such highly qualified personnel to have paid out quite so much,only to earn less than a supervisor in McDonalds.
It's a really good job there's something worth loving about this flying lark, or I fear there would be no air travel at all.
I did have all kinds of ideas about taxation - including a realisation that a higher tax bracket was unfair, and so those in well paid jobs could pay less tax by 'opting out' of certain aspects, maybe agreeing not to use the NHS or state schools. Apparently that doesn't fit with the masses. And, in truth, would only lead to higher fuel or beer costs!
But I really can't be shaken in my view that a standard student loan should be available if you're undertaking study. Because that's what ATPL students are - students.
I feel the alternative is to say that they are unemployed people actively training for a job, and should be allowed a "jobseekers' allowance".
Another seriously legitimate idea is, as hinted at by Topslide6, cost of such professional training be, to whatever extent possible, retrospectively refunded by the employer. It's a seriously unfortunate state of affairs when such companies are allowed to profit to such an extent by not having to train their own workforce.
This is without going on to the subject of FI pay - another can of worms. Needless to say, there can't be too many jobs with so few progression opportunities which require such highly qualified personnel to have paid out quite so much,only to earn less than a supervisor in McDonalds.
It's a really good job there's something worth loving about this flying lark, or I fear there would be no air travel at all.
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I disagree with the petition, if the government helped to train Pilots there will simply be too many pilots and with all the silly "green" talk going on the government wont do a thing, and if they did help our taxes would go even higher. Nice though to the person who made the petition!
Flies for fun
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Another seriously legitimate idea is, as hinted at by Topslide6, cost of such professional training be, to whatever extent possible, retrospectively refunded by the employer. It's a seriously unfortunate state of affairs when such companies are allowed to profit to such an extent by not having to train their own workforce.
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FATPL holders are two a penny and that is exactly why there are so many unemployed! Government funding would only exacerbate the current situation and even worse, exacerbate it at the taxpayers expense!
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More to the point there are so many unemployed because it is essentially a process of self selection to head down the ATPL path. Few if any do any sort of aptitude testing. Fewer still look themselves in the mirror or ask friends etc how they come across. How many ever invest in any sort of course on preparing for interviews and getting their CV up to a professional standard?
Sadly there are many able aviators out there that will never get a job simply because their face doesn't fit. One quick example.... some tw*t I saw the other day was in for interview wearing a cheap pair of chinos and a polo neck. All the other wannabees were in their best suits. He didn't even stand a chance and will probably not know where he went wrong as in this day and age we have to cover our a*ses in case it is seen as discrimination.
Sadly there are many able aviators out there that will never get a job simply because their face doesn't fit. One quick example.... some tw*t I saw the other day was in for interview wearing a cheap pair of chinos and a polo neck. All the other wannabees were in their best suits. He didn't even stand a chance and will probably not know where he went wrong as in this day and age we have to cover our a*ses in case it is seen as discrimination.
