View Poll Results: Type rating?
Bought Type rating - got the job
4
66.67%
Bought Type rating - told "need time on type"
1
16.67%
You were told buy the type and get the job - but did not get a job offer anyway
1
16.67%
Voters: 6. This poll is closed
Type Rating - which type, where, why pay etc?
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Well said Luke.
It continues to amaze me! - the number of selfish, short-sighted individuals willing to give away conditions that YOU did not earn. For many years the people who came before you in this industry worked bloody hard to ensure a decent pay-packet and standard of living was had by airline pilots. Why do you think this job is so enviable after all?
In the last few years the number of wannabes 'desperate for a job' and willing to forego these conditions increases at an alarming rate. Buying unsolicited type ratings is just one example - but it is the one that stands out in my mind!!
It continues to amaze me! - the number of selfish, short-sighted individuals willing to give away conditions that YOU did not earn. For many years the people who came before you in this industry worked bloody hard to ensure a decent pay-packet and standard of living was had by airline pilots. Why do you think this job is so enviable after all?
In the last few years the number of wannabes 'desperate for a job' and willing to forego these conditions increases at an alarming rate. Buying unsolicited type ratings is just one example - but it is the one that stands out in my mind!!
ZbV
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Types
Got a type and was told that I need time in type. Found an job without time in type. Got another job with 1000 hours of jet and was offered a job without the type.
So this seems to work both ways. I still have a type on my licence that I have not been able to use, hopefully one day.
So this seems to work both ways. I still have a type on my licence that I have not been able to use, hopefully one day.
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I agree that the CTC scheme is probably going to become more popular and is an excellent scheme, but don't you end up in a holding pool on completion?
Just to put a figure on what WWW said above, approved course ATPL + 737-300 type rating = 75K! That is a scary amount of beer tokens
Just to put a figure on what WWW said above, approved course ATPL + 737-300 type rating = 75K! That is a scary amount of beer tokens
Well yes, I meant either paying your own type rating or going the CTC route is a whole lot more money than the theoretical £35,000 ATPL modular course.
How the flip you go about paying off £75,000 of debt and at the same time buy your first property all on circa £30,000 I just do not know. I don't think you CAN in the South East.
Certainly takes the shine off the early years of your career I am sure - which is a real shame.
WWW
How the flip you go about paying off £75,000 of debt and at the same time buy your first property all on circa £30,000 I just do not know. I don't think you CAN in the South East.
Certainly takes the shine off the early years of your career I am sure - which is a real shame.
WWW
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£35,000? I wish!
£35K is certainly theoretical. By the time I'd budgeted for accommodation, living expenses, travel, travel insurance, life and health insurance to cover the loans, exam fees, flight test fees, landing fees, a little contingency pot to cover the extras if I don't sail through everything first time (not that I'll need that of course) and a few quid for a bottle of bubbly when I get to the other end, I estimate I'll need quite a lot more than £35K.
Many of the people I've spoken to have spent between £55 and £60K when they account for everything. When they start talking about loss of earnings on top it’s a whole lot more than that. People who have gone integrated have spent a bit more. If it's BAe, not a heap more (the 3 I know well recon on £65,000 to £70,000), if it is WMU or Oxford, quite a lot more (another £5K at least).
Although it seems a long way off at the moment, I have to say that the CTC scheme at £6,000 with a £2,000 refund if you pass sounds like a bargain. If it includes MCC, presumably you don't need to do that first?
If the alternative is paying over £20K for your own type rating I don't see how the two can be compared.
Many of the people I've spoken to have spent between £55 and £60K when they account for everything. When they start talking about loss of earnings on top it’s a whole lot more than that. People who have gone integrated have spent a bit more. If it's BAe, not a heap more (the 3 I know well recon on £65,000 to £70,000), if it is WMU or Oxford, quite a lot more (another £5K at least).
Although it seems a long way off at the moment, I have to say that the CTC scheme at £6,000 with a £2,000 refund if you pass sounds like a bargain. If it includes MCC, presumably you don't need to do that first?
If the alternative is paying over £20K for your own type rating I don't see how the two can be compared.
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Weasley, is that a veiled reference to something that EZY are about to spring on us? i.e. plans are afoot to take a bunch more CTC cadets and a bunch less high hour direct entry FO's by any chance?
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
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A reputable source tells me that JMC and EasyJet have approached GECAT with setting up a similar scheme to that of Ryanair.
Welcome to the world of paying out 80k for a job that pays 30k.
Sally at PPRuNe's figures are about right, certainly it is in the region of what I have paid so far (and plan to spend on an IR & MCC).
Just how stupid are we?
Welcome to the world of paying out 80k for a job that pays 30k.
Sally at PPRuNe's figures are about right, certainly it is in the region of what I have paid so far (and plan to spend on an IR & MCC).
Just how stupid are we?
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What is CTC after all? Nothing more than a wannabe funded recruitment agency. Sure you get a type rating paid for by the company (if you get through) but then very little in wages for the first year and you have to pay CTC for an over priced MCC in the meantime. Bollocks to CTC!
I think the only people who consider CTC are those who are afraid to compete with the rest on the open hiring market.
I think the only people who consider CTC are those who are afraid to compete with the rest on the open hiring market.
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Grivation
I don't think that people who either attend CTC or pay for their own type rating are necessarily afraid to compete on the open hiring market. What they are doing is being pro active, showing dedication and making themselves more marketable whilst retaining a certain amount of flying currency.
If you are against CTC, and paying for your own type rating, are you suggesting that all wannabes let their IR's lapse and not do any flying until they get a job?
A young chappie i was talking to a couple of weeks ago had done some single engine flying, a few hours on a seneca then test and run up nearly a £2K bill. I know 6K is alot of cash for CTC but it puts you in the running for a good right hand seat job which sounds good to me.
I don't think that people who either attend CTC or pay for their own type rating are necessarily afraid to compete on the open hiring market. What they are doing is being pro active, showing dedication and making themselves more marketable whilst retaining a certain amount of flying currency.
If you are against CTC, and paying for your own type rating, are you suggesting that all wannabes let their IR's lapse and not do any flying until they get a job?
A young chappie i was talking to a couple of weeks ago had done some single engine flying, a few hours on a seneca then test and run up nearly a £2K bill. I know 6K is alot of cash for CTC but it puts you in the running for a good right hand seat job which sounds good to me.
I'm sorry Luke, but I couldn't possibly comment.
Sally it is possible to do a complete ATPL course for £35,000 if you are very lucky. If you have a suitable school close to home, if you pass everything first time, if you go distance learning and modular, if you can go stateside initially and if you live like a monk during the process. I know as I have seen people do it - just.
For the younger Wannabe I suggest getting in the ATC and doing well - it got me my first couple of hundred hours gratis, but even a lot less if free flying = money.
At one time (when I couldn't afford it) I disliked the CTC scheme as it then worked. Now with a little more insight I can see the merit of the scheme. There is a gulf between your Senecca IRT and base training in your 737. The CTC is seems to me provides a bridge for this gulf which is compelling to the jet airlines and yet which is not outlandishly expensive for the Wanabee. We all hate training providers because they are so expensive, we are all so insignificant to them and their results can be hugely variable. Yet I see little reason to deplore what the likes of CTC are trying to achieve.
Even though it does cost yet more money
It does well to bear in mind that a CAP509 course in 1996 cost £56,000. Compare to most Integrated courses nowadays and factor in inflation and average earnings - you end up finding that such full courses are now cheaper than they were.
Personally I think type ratings are too big a gamble unless you have an 'In' to a particular operator. A lessor gamble is something akin to the CTC option. Or using the type rating money to fund you into being cabin crew with a particular airline, suffer a minimum wage job in an Ops dept somewhere, or indeed pay for a flying instructor rating next Spring.
One has to of course remember that the old IR renewal is coming and simply funding that might have a higher claim on ones final reserve of cash.
Whatever, its a rock and a hard place. Good luck,
WWW
Sally it is possible to do a complete ATPL course for £35,000 if you are very lucky. If you have a suitable school close to home, if you pass everything first time, if you go distance learning and modular, if you can go stateside initially and if you live like a monk during the process. I know as I have seen people do it - just.
For the younger Wannabe I suggest getting in the ATC and doing well - it got me my first couple of hundred hours gratis, but even a lot less if free flying = money.
At one time (when I couldn't afford it) I disliked the CTC scheme as it then worked. Now with a little more insight I can see the merit of the scheme. There is a gulf between your Senecca IRT and base training in your 737. The CTC is seems to me provides a bridge for this gulf which is compelling to the jet airlines and yet which is not outlandishly expensive for the Wanabee. We all hate training providers because they are so expensive, we are all so insignificant to them and their results can be hugely variable. Yet I see little reason to deplore what the likes of CTC are trying to achieve.
Even though it does cost yet more money
It does well to bear in mind that a CAP509 course in 1996 cost £56,000. Compare to most Integrated courses nowadays and factor in inflation and average earnings - you end up finding that such full courses are now cheaper than they were.
Personally I think type ratings are too big a gamble unless you have an 'In' to a particular operator. A lessor gamble is something akin to the CTC option. Or using the type rating money to fund you into being cabin crew with a particular airline, suffer a minimum wage job in an Ops dept somewhere, or indeed pay for a flying instructor rating next Spring.
One has to of course remember that the old IR renewal is coming and simply funding that might have a higher claim on ones final reserve of cash.
Whatever, its a rock and a hard place. Good luck,
WWW
Grivation
Whereas I agree with the more, lets say clasic way of rising up the ladder, the problem that I see is that the number of such TP jobs have diminished. At the same time, faster jet positions have increased.
I'd very much like to cut my teeth on a TP, but there are less and less options available. Look at AIR UK - KLM UK - no jobs here any more, and there are other examples as I'm sure you are aware.
S
Whereas I agree with the more, lets say clasic way of rising up the ladder, the problem that I see is that the number of such TP jobs have diminished. At the same time, faster jet positions have increased.
I'd very much like to cut my teeth on a TP, but there are less and less options available. Look at AIR UK - KLM UK - no jobs here any more, and there are other examples as I'm sure you are aware.
S
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Grivation, for the majority you are right, although I would question modern turbo-props or the often quoted air taxi as being easier than a FO position on a B737/A320, and hence more suitable for someone who has just graduated from a flight school.
You are very wrong, though to say CTC is a wannabee funded recruitment agency. It is a TRTO, whose primary customer is the airlines, but offers a small number of flight school graduates the opportunity to fast-track to a jet or airline turbo-prop FO position through a sponsored type-rating.
A very few potential pilots are suited to fast tracking to a jet airline. These are the few who are sponsored from the start, or after getting their licences, by the airlines directly or through the CTC ATP scheme or Astreus’. A very few more get first jet jobs directly themselves, usually during the occasional hiring booms.
Why should the likes of BA and bmi bother with this? A number of reasons, including:
- those who represent ‘the cream’ before training generally remain ‘the cream’ through training and beyond. Would you like to employ the best or second best?
- by the time you have worked for a couple of airlines, you have picked up lots of habits – not necessarily bad, but different habits. These are difficult to train out. Airlines prefer a clean sheet of paper rather than an employee coming with a load of baggage.
- if someone had offered to pay all your training costs, just how loyal would you be to them?
- ‘junior’ employees cost less than ‘senior’ employees. Those savings are offset if the airline has to pay for some or all of their training.
That said, I don’t think there is any airline who would like all their new employees to come from one age group, with one experience level or background. That’s why there will always be a ‘self-improver route’ for those who have not been successful in applying for sponsorship at the ab-initio or type rating level, e.g. the CTC ATP scheme.
I’m not connected directly, but a number of my ex-students have got onto the CTC scheme and are now working for jet airlines. It’s a great opportunity for those who can crack it. I’ve never heard anyone slag it that has succeeded in passing the selection. Most of the many who fail to get on it recognise its merits and only wish they had made it, but there are always those with chips on both shoulders.
You are very wrong, though to say CTC is a wannabee funded recruitment agency. It is a TRTO, whose primary customer is the airlines, but offers a small number of flight school graduates the opportunity to fast-track to a jet or airline turbo-prop FO position through a sponsored type-rating.
A very few potential pilots are suited to fast tracking to a jet airline. These are the few who are sponsored from the start, or after getting their licences, by the airlines directly or through the CTC ATP scheme or Astreus’. A very few more get first jet jobs directly themselves, usually during the occasional hiring booms.
Why should the likes of BA and bmi bother with this? A number of reasons, including:
- those who represent ‘the cream’ before training generally remain ‘the cream’ through training and beyond. Would you like to employ the best or second best?
- by the time you have worked for a couple of airlines, you have picked up lots of habits – not necessarily bad, but different habits. These are difficult to train out. Airlines prefer a clean sheet of paper rather than an employee coming with a load of baggage.
- if someone had offered to pay all your training costs, just how loyal would you be to them?
- ‘junior’ employees cost less than ‘senior’ employees. Those savings are offset if the airline has to pay for some or all of their training.
That said, I don’t think there is any airline who would like all their new employees to come from one age group, with one experience level or background. That’s why there will always be a ‘self-improver route’ for those who have not been successful in applying for sponsorship at the ab-initio or type rating level, e.g. the CTC ATP scheme.
I’m not connected directly, but a number of my ex-students have got onto the CTC scheme and are now working for jet airlines. It’s a great opportunity for those who can crack it. I’ve never heard anyone slag it that has succeeded in passing the selection. Most of the many who fail to get on it recognise its merits and only wish they had made it, but there are always those with chips on both shoulders.
Terrier
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fibod,
Spot on.
As for jmc approaching GECAT to run a similar course, who knows? One thing that is certain is that jmc have said publicly that they have a demographic problem in the airline. There are lots of pilots waiting for Command, and 50 too many Captains in the airline already.
Bear in mind, that the MOST JUNIOR co-pilot in jmc has 2 years service nearly and over 1000 hours on type...... and you start to get a picture. That means the most senior co-pilots have 6 or 7 years in the company and 4 or 5000 hours on type.
So, it would be attractive for jmc to recruit low hours people to be co-pilots for 10 years or more.
However, jmc first have to offer a dozen or so blokes their jobs back before they recruit again. People who took career breaks etc.....so, I would not get too excited about the prospects there for recruitment next year. After that though, I reckon wannabes may be in luck with them. As long as you can afford to work summer only contract work.
As for eJ, who knows again? Why would they take the training risk upon themselves? CTC does a good job for them. I doubt they will change that.
Spot on.
As for jmc approaching GECAT to run a similar course, who knows? One thing that is certain is that jmc have said publicly that they have a demographic problem in the airline. There are lots of pilots waiting for Command, and 50 too many Captains in the airline already.
Bear in mind, that the MOST JUNIOR co-pilot in jmc has 2 years service nearly and over 1000 hours on type...... and you start to get a picture. That means the most senior co-pilots have 6 or 7 years in the company and 4 or 5000 hours on type.
So, it would be attractive for jmc to recruit low hours people to be co-pilots for 10 years or more.
However, jmc first have to offer a dozen or so blokes their jobs back before they recruit again. People who took career breaks etc.....so, I would not get too excited about the prospects there for recruitment next year. After that though, I reckon wannabes may be in luck with them. As long as you can afford to work summer only contract work.
As for eJ, who knows again? Why would they take the training risk upon themselves? CTC does a good job for them. I doubt they will change that.
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fibod / tailscrape - you can't seriously be telling me that airlines use the CTC scheme because they want a premium product. They use CTC because 1. IT IS CHEAP and 2. It produces an acceptable product.
CTC is nothing more than an unsolicited self-sponsored type rating with a little screening thrown in. The screening is nothing different to what gets done during the normal airline recruitment process - it's just that CTC wannabes are now paying for their own interviews, testing, MCC, AQP and eventually (although not directly) a type rating. Another backward step for our profession!
fibod - as for your reasons why companies should be using the CTC scheme - that would have to be one of the largest loads of rubbish that I have ever read on this site.
CTC is nothing more than an unsolicited self-sponsored type rating with a little screening thrown in. The screening is nothing different to what gets done during the normal airline recruitment process - it's just that CTC wannabes are now paying for their own interviews, testing, MCC, AQP and eventually (although not directly) a type rating. Another backward step for our profession!
fibod - as for your reasons why companies should be using the CTC scheme - that would have to be one of the largest loads of rubbish that I have ever read on this site.
1. It is cheap. Well in the big scheme of airline recruiting the real issue is not cost - its getting the right candidate. Training failures cost a fortune in both cash and more importantly line trainers and sim trainers precious time. If the CTC can prove a competence in selecting people then thats hugely attractive to an airline. Who - after all - only otherwise have a handful of HR people and couple of frontline staff to use as a selection tool. Staff you have little training for this specialised and for them periphery task. If CTC can convince airline CP's that what they are really really good at is FO selection then that is the overiding selling point. Not saving a few quid.
2. See above. The CTC organisation I am sure can provide some pretty concrete figures showing the success rates of their graduates over a number of years.
A wider point is that airlines are becoming much leaner. In the past your BA's and Britannias and BM's had long established HR departments. They had lots of Admin support. The industry was also a smaller place. Perhaps a few hundred people chasing a job - not a few thousand as now.
Airlines could afford the time and personnel to run their own extensive and thorough selection. That is simply perhaps no longer the case. New airlines - and some older ones - are now much leaner than they were. Costs have been reduced. Which means large airlines might only have three or four HR people. Indeed everyone from the Chief Pilot down now has to be more productive. There is possibly less scope to divert off for a week or two in order to agonise and supervise an indepth selection amongst literally thousands of applicants.
What they might have time for is to set up a trusted third party to provide them with a shortlist. ala CTC. Nothing too new here as Parc and Storm aviation amongst many others have been doing this for a good few years.
If that trusted third party finds the best way to make their selection is the way CTC does it then who is to argue?
If there ever is a shortage of pilots in this country then - sure - the airlines would be placing full page ads in every newspaper. But as we know all to well, that just ain't the case.
Your point about this being an erosion of terms for the aspiring pilot is noted. As a counterbalance I would argue that 20 years ago unless your Dad was in BA you had little or no chance of getting into the RHS of a B757 with 210hrs.
Cheers
WWW
2. See above. The CTC organisation I am sure can provide some pretty concrete figures showing the success rates of their graduates over a number of years.
A wider point is that airlines are becoming much leaner. In the past your BA's and Britannias and BM's had long established HR departments. They had lots of Admin support. The industry was also a smaller place. Perhaps a few hundred people chasing a job - not a few thousand as now.
Airlines could afford the time and personnel to run their own extensive and thorough selection. That is simply perhaps no longer the case. New airlines - and some older ones - are now much leaner than they were. Costs have been reduced. Which means large airlines might only have three or four HR people. Indeed everyone from the Chief Pilot down now has to be more productive. There is possibly less scope to divert off for a week or two in order to agonise and supervise an indepth selection amongst literally thousands of applicants.
What they might have time for is to set up a trusted third party to provide them with a shortlist. ala CTC. Nothing too new here as Parc and Storm aviation amongst many others have been doing this for a good few years.
If that trusted third party finds the best way to make their selection is the way CTC does it then who is to argue?
If there ever is a shortage of pilots in this country then - sure - the airlines would be placing full page ads in every newspaper. But as we know all to well, that just ain't the case.
Your point about this being an erosion of terms for the aspiring pilot is noted. As a counterbalance I would argue that 20 years ago unless your Dad was in BA you had little or no chance of getting into the RHS of a B757 with 210hrs.
Cheers
WWW
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WWW,
Have it on fairly good authority that some CTC cadets that have started base/line training with some of the low cost boys and IT airlines have needed extra training on top of what was scheduled and in some unfortuntate cases have been binned altogether!
Have it on fairly good authority that some CTC cadets that have started base/line training with some of the low cost boys and IT airlines have needed extra training on top of what was scheduled and in some unfortuntate cases have been binned altogether!
Terrier
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Grivation,
You sound miffed. Something upsetting you?
RayBan,
There have been failures in the past in the sim and I believe beyond. However these are minimal and goes to prove the point why airlines use CTC.
It stops them having to fail people.
You sound miffed. Something upsetting you?
RayBan,
There have been failures in the past in the sim and I believe beyond. However these are minimal and goes to prove the point why airlines use CTC.
It stops them having to fail people.
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Don't get me wrong guys I have no problem with the quality of product that gets delivered by CTC. I haven't personally sat next to any of them but I'm sure they are all good operators. I also have no problem with companies using third party contractors to screen applicants.
What I do feel quite strongly about is the trend for us (as a pilot group) to pay for what should rightly be an employers expense!
What I do feel quite strongly about is the trend for us (as a pilot group) to pay for what should rightly be an employers expense!