View Poll Results: Type rating?
Bought Type rating - got the job
4
66.67%
Bought Type rating - told "need time on type"
1
16.67%
You were told buy the type and get the job - but did not get a job offer anyway
1
16.67%
Voters: 6. This poll is closed
Type Rating - which type, where, why pay etc?
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Kefuddle_UK,
I think you have completely mis-read Grivation's post. He is referring to industry wide terms and conditions which would be eroded if significant numbers of junior pilots offered to pay for their type ratings in exchange for flying employment. A type rating should be funded by the employer airline and is thus a legitimate business expense for them.
I think you have completely mis-read Grivation's post. He is referring to industry wide terms and conditions which would be eroded if significant numbers of junior pilots offered to pay for their type ratings in exchange for flying employment. A type rating should be funded by the employer airline and is thus a legitimate business expense for them.
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AMEX speaks the truth and obviously from a position of considerable experience in general aviation.
Just my thoughts that's all.
Mind you Martin and Xwind, I was thinking of raisng a bit of money for the "Endangered Amex species", since you sound quite enthusiastic, feel free to send me your cheques.
The money will go towards the following projects:
-Planning to build a shelter (6 beds house in Surrey)
-Find a location following the Amex's loss of winter habitat (Found a plot in the Caribbean)
-Three Vehicle Red (TVR for short
)
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Just to add my bit to the paying for a type rating course for what it's worth.
My girlfriend finished a full time course in July with 200 hrs and is starting a self funded 737-300 rating in two weeks. We both wrote to a 737-300 operator after an advert in FI for type rated pilots with 500 hours commercial experience of EFIS.
The handbrake outlined her plans to them, and i detailed my experience. So theres me with 3000 hours, 1500+ on an EFIS multi crew turbine aircraft (not 737 rated), and her with 200 hours and starting a type rating. Now who got the positive reply? Answers on a postcard please.
My girlfriend finished a full time course in July with 200 hrs and is starting a self funded 737-300 rating in two weeks. We both wrote to a 737-300 operator after an advert in FI for type rated pilots with 500 hours commercial experience of EFIS.
The handbrake outlined her plans to them, and i detailed my experience. So theres me with 3000 hours, 1500+ on an EFIS multi crew turbine aircraft (not 737 rated), and her with 200 hours and starting a type rating. Now who got the positive reply? Answers on a postcard please.
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Not that I am an argumentative sod but...
Terms and conditions are those things that you agree to when taking on a job. I understand that you are trying to generalise the issue but recruitment policies will vary between organisations. I say that employers should have a choice:
a) Fully or part fund the type rating and the employee is bonded for a minimum period but can buy him/her self out (short, curlies and grasped spring to mind)
b) Let the employee pay for it and the employee is free to fly the coup whenever a better offer comes along.
Methinks it is utterly unreasonable to expect employers to pay for type ratings without a some guarentee of a minimum term of service. But then the situation is horses for courses. Small fragile regional operators will depending on self financing. Large highly profitable airlines will seek to attract the best and be willing to pay for it. In a buyers market they have first shout unfortunatelty.
Anyway, the money has to come from somewhere. Either each pays for their own or all salries in an organisation are affected by the increasing costs.
Just a point of view.
Terms and conditions are those things that you agree to when taking on a job. I understand that you are trying to generalise the issue but recruitment policies will vary between organisations. I say that employers should have a choice:
a) Fully or part fund the type rating and the employee is bonded for a minimum period but can buy him/her self out (short, curlies and grasped spring to mind)
b) Let the employee pay for it and the employee is free to fly the coup whenever a better offer comes along.
Methinks it is utterly unreasonable to expect employers to pay for type ratings without a some guarentee of a minimum term of service. But then the situation is horses for courses. Small fragile regional operators will depending on self financing. Large highly profitable airlines will seek to attract the best and be willing to pay for it. In a buyers market they have first shout unfortunatelty.
Anyway, the money has to come from somewhere. Either each pays for their own or all salries in an organisation are affected by the increasing costs.
Just a point of view.
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Impressive_Wingspan,
It does seem strange. I guess they feel that 200 hrs is enough for the type of F/O position they have vacant with the added savings of a junior F/O salary and £25k on a TR.
It does seem strange. I guess they feel that 200 hrs is enough for the type of F/O position they have vacant with the added savings of a junior F/O salary and £25k on a TR.
Spend the money on the CTC scheme would be my advice.
WWW
WWW
Terrier
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WWW,
Spot on advice.
If the rumours are true, a large UK charter airline that has GREEN TAILS, but will be going blue soon will only seek low hours guys for the foreseeable future.
And it is my bet that they will use CTC for those guys.
Only a rumour, but one that does have a history.
Spot on advice.
If the rumours are true, a large UK charter airline that has GREEN TAILS, but will be going blue soon will only seek low hours guys for the foreseeable future.
And it is my bet that they will use CTC for those guys.
Only a rumour, but one that does have a history.
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I am totally with you on this one buddy. I brought this up a week or so ago and got called all sorts from someone who just didnt understand to a prostitute...well ho hum...we live in a competitive world and the longer people have the heads up aft the better, cos it makes it easier for folks like me and you...you are enitrely correct about bonding...
YOU pay for the type rating via bonding in any case, so why not pay for it yourself and get out when you want???
See you in hell!
YOU pay for the type rating via bonding in any case, so why not pay for it yourself and get out when you want???
See you in hell!
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Kefuddle_UK
That was my first thought also, and with this topic being hot in our house at the moment I have been researching this for some months. Out of interest I asked my girly to call the operator to try and find out if there was any order in which they consider applicants, the response being
1) High hour 737-300 rated.
2) Any person with Jet time.
3) Any 737 rated regardless of experience.
The response is not isolated to one operator either, this very morning she has had another letter drop through the letterbox from a 737 operator saying she is under consideration.
Now my employer paid for my type rating and that put me on the bottom rung of the ladder. I am ready to take a step up and I find that I can be leap frogged by a candidate with 200 hours and a 733 rating. I’m not resentful of this whatsoever, I think it shows a considerable amount of commitment to take a rating like this on, which can only be looked upon as favourable by an employer.
Surely the logical thinkers who recruit us will think if a person has spent £14 K and eight weeks hard work on a 737-300 type rating, with no guarantees whatsoever shows the same dedication on joining their company, will they be a training risk?
Please do not confuse me with someone who is trying to persuade all low houred pilots to start going out buying 737 ratings because I am not, nothing could be further from the truth. Nor am I trying to justify the expenditure my girlfriend is about to undertake because she has wealthy parents who couldn’t care less. Just going back to the first thread though, a PC12 or C208 type rating is going to cost you 8K ish. If you take into account the cost of the rating and then two years flying that type to get the monies spent back, putting yourself out of the running for potentially a higher paid job, are you actually going to gain? Then once you have the hours you will be overlooked by someone who has low hours but a relevant rating.
Just on a final note please do NOT reply asking how she is doing a 737-300 type rating course for £14K (well it’s actually £14,200), but it CAN be done for this, it just takes a little bit of initiative, is not complicated NOR illegal.
That was my first thought also, and with this topic being hot in our house at the moment I have been researching this for some months. Out of interest I asked my girly to call the operator to try and find out if there was any order in which they consider applicants, the response being
1) High hour 737-300 rated.
2) Any person with Jet time.
3) Any 737 rated regardless of experience.
The response is not isolated to one operator either, this very morning she has had another letter drop through the letterbox from a 737 operator saying she is under consideration.
Now my employer paid for my type rating and that put me on the bottom rung of the ladder. I am ready to take a step up and I find that I can be leap frogged by a candidate with 200 hours and a 733 rating. I’m not resentful of this whatsoever, I think it shows a considerable amount of commitment to take a rating like this on, which can only be looked upon as favourable by an employer.
Surely the logical thinkers who recruit us will think if a person has spent £14 K and eight weeks hard work on a 737-300 type rating, with no guarantees whatsoever shows the same dedication on joining their company, will they be a training risk?
Please do not confuse me with someone who is trying to persuade all low houred pilots to start going out buying 737 ratings because I am not, nothing could be further from the truth. Nor am I trying to justify the expenditure my girlfriend is about to undertake because she has wealthy parents who couldn’t care less. Just going back to the first thread though, a PC12 or C208 type rating is going to cost you 8K ish. If you take into account the cost of the rating and then two years flying that type to get the monies spent back, putting yourself out of the running for potentially a higher paid job, are you actually going to gain? Then once you have the hours you will be overlooked by someone who has low hours but a relevant rating.
Just on a final note please do NOT reply asking how she is doing a 737-300 type rating course for £14K (well it’s actually £14,200), but it CAN be done for this, it just takes a little bit of initiative, is not complicated NOR illegal.
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Prob30
That’s exactly my point.
The chief pilot I spoke to said: Listen we are a small airline trying to keep costs down and if you think you could get the type… we probably could write something up for you to take to the bank manager… they don’t want to risk committing to a whole training course with all the money that’s involved if that means that they have to cut costs some how else where. Secondly they know that if I find something bigger and shinier, I’m gone so they maybe don’t want to get involved with the whole bond situation. My 2 cents.
Obviously I would never go out there and let’s say buy a 737 type and hope that when I apply to the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet that I will get a job. If they promised a job and I had it on paper than yes. Like you say Prob30 you’re bonded anyway.
If I was really rich maybe… just as a shot in the dark. I know I’m going to get hung for this line….
Thanks for the replies…. Lets please have open discussion on this matter, Coz a lot of wannabes are getting desperate and about to get them self’s into a lot of debt
Incl Myself 
More replies Needed.
Thanks again.
AK
That’s exactly my point.
The chief pilot I spoke to said: Listen we are a small airline trying to keep costs down and if you think you could get the type… we probably could write something up for you to take to the bank manager… they don’t want to risk committing to a whole training course with all the money that’s involved if that means that they have to cut costs some how else where. Secondly they know that if I find something bigger and shinier, I’m gone so they maybe don’t want to get involved with the whole bond situation. My 2 cents.
Obviously I would never go out there and let’s say buy a 737 type and hope that when I apply to the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet that I will get a job. If they promised a job and I had it on paper than yes. Like you say Prob30 you’re bonded anyway.
If I was really rich maybe… just as a shot in the dark. I know I’m going to get hung for this line….
Thanks for the replies…. Lets please have open discussion on this matter, Coz a lot of wannabes are getting desperate and about to get them self’s into a lot of debt
Incl Myself More replies Needed.
Thanks again.
AK
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Why the difference?
If it is right and proper for an employer to sponsor your type rating, why does it stop there? Why is it acceptable for an employer to expect you to fund your own MCC? Or licence training? Surely, following the logic of the original argument, any employer which does not offer 100% sponsorship is out of order, and any pilot who accepts employment after self-funding their own training is eroding the terms and conditions of everyone else? 
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Where's the market?
Other than Ryanair, I don't know any 737 operators who don't use the CTC ATP scheme; some even state a policy of not taking low hours candidates who do not come via CTC. So having got this brand new self-financed type rating and no hours on type, just who is going to give you a job?
Surely WWW is right; £6K on the CTC scheme (I think you get £2K back if you are successful), a sponsored type rating, 6 months line experience and a job at the end of it.
Unless, of course, you have failed the CTC selection. If that is the case, I'd have thought it would make even less sense speculating the cost of the type rating.
Surely WWW is right; £6K on the CTC scheme (I think you get £2K back if you are successful), a sponsored type rating, 6 months line experience and a job at the end of it.
Unless, of course, you have failed the CTC selection. If that is the case, I'd have thought it would make even less sense speculating the cost of the type rating.
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I think that TonyBlair is right here,
If you have not passed the CTC scheme selection, it is possibly a big risk paying for a type rating.
At the end of the day, it is down to any individual concerned, however most airlines want a reasonable amount of experience on type.
What is a reasonable amount? Possibly about 400 or 500 hours I would guess..
Still, it is a cut throat game and if an individual thinks a type rating will be an advantage in the job hunt, then that is up to them to decide.
If you have never applied to CTC, it will probably be worth a shot though, there is nothing to fear by applying.
If you have not passed the CTC scheme selection, it is possibly a big risk paying for a type rating.
At the end of the day, it is down to any individual concerned, however most airlines want a reasonable amount of experience on type.
What is a reasonable amount? Possibly about 400 or 500 hours I would guess..
Still, it is a cut throat game and if an individual thinks a type rating will be an advantage in the job hunt, then that is up to them to decide.
If you have never applied to CTC, it will probably be worth a shot though, there is nothing to fear by applying.
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Buying type ratings is such a game for *Jim Carey voice* "LOOO - HOOO-OOOSSERSS!!*
Why, you ask? Lets look at the two scenarios that your average type rating buyer is considering.
Option 1) is to go and buy a half decent type rating, 737 seems to be the most popular at the moment. Et voila, you have now just guaranteed that no turboprop operator will touch your CV with a 40 foot pole, because they know you'll be off like a rat up a drainpipe as soon as something better comes around. So, in other words, your entire set of otions now consists of sending CVs to Ryanair. Yes I know, no doubt you'll be sending CVs to Easy and Astraeus and all the other 737 operators in the country as well, but since they pay for their pilots ratings anyway it seems to kind of defeat the purpose of the exercise. As Hamrah and god knows how many other ops managers and chief pilots point out endlessly, a jet type rating without experience is about as useless as a condom machine in the vatican.
Option 2, is to go buy a type rating on some obsolete battered old turboprop for one of the freight crowds (we all know who they are), and then stand in line. Well can I just enquire, what on earth makes you think there are going to be any vacancies in the freight company in question once you've got the rating? There sure aren't any jobs elsewhere in the industry, so why would there be some at a couple of sh!tty night freight companies? Think about it logically, sod all of their pilots can have moved on since 9/11 because there's no jet jobs to be had. They're not expanding, so where is this miraculous F/O job going to appear from? Hmmm. Could it be by any chance at the expense of some bloke who bought his rating 6 months ago who is about to be thrown out on his ear, to make way for the next wave of type-rating-buyers? Guess what guys, those people make just about as much money from selling type ratings to wannabes as they do from flying freight What is the going rate now, 8 or 9 thousand quid for a S330 rating??!! Easy money for someone!
Seriously, if you have that kind of money to throw about to try and get ahead in the job stakes, then do yourself a favour, go to Florida or SA or somewhere, and buy yourself 100 hours in a light twin, maybe a Navajo rating as well, and then get back to the UK and target the piston twin operators. There's a damn sight more of them for a start, you're more likely to get a secure job at the end of it with no surprises, and a year or so of hard core single-pilot multi IFR will not only look good in the logbook but it will give you a lot better chance when you have to hand fly that big nasty sim check with that airline.
Why, you ask? Lets look at the two scenarios that your average type rating buyer is considering.
Option 1) is to go and buy a half decent type rating, 737 seems to be the most popular at the moment. Et voila, you have now just guaranteed that no turboprop operator will touch your CV with a 40 foot pole, because they know you'll be off like a rat up a drainpipe as soon as something better comes around. So, in other words, your entire set of otions now consists of sending CVs to Ryanair. Yes I know, no doubt you'll be sending CVs to Easy and Astraeus and all the other 737 operators in the country as well, but since they pay for their pilots ratings anyway it seems to kind of defeat the purpose of the exercise. As Hamrah and god knows how many other ops managers and chief pilots point out endlessly, a jet type rating without experience is about as useless as a condom machine in the vatican.
Option 2, is to go buy a type rating on some obsolete battered old turboprop for one of the freight crowds (we all know who they are), and then stand in line. Well can I just enquire, what on earth makes you think there are going to be any vacancies in the freight company in question once you've got the rating? There sure aren't any jobs elsewhere in the industry, so why would there be some at a couple of sh!tty night freight companies? Think about it logically, sod all of their pilots can have moved on since 9/11 because there's no jet jobs to be had. They're not expanding, so where is this miraculous F/O job going to appear from? Hmmm. Could it be by any chance at the expense of some bloke who bought his rating 6 months ago who is about to be thrown out on his ear, to make way for the next wave of type-rating-buyers? Guess what guys, those people make just about as much money from selling type ratings to wannabes as they do from flying freight
What is the going rate now, 8 or 9 thousand quid for a S330 rating??!! Easy money for someone!Seriously, if you have that kind of money to throw about to try and get ahead in the job stakes, then do yourself a favour, go to Florida or SA or somewhere, and buy yourself 100 hours in a light twin, maybe a Navajo rating as well, and then get back to the UK and target the piston twin operators. There's a damn sight more of them for a start, you're more likely to get a secure job at the end of it with no surprises, and a year or so of hard core single-pilot multi IFR will not only look good in the logbook but it will give you a lot better chance when you have to hand fly that big nasty sim check with that airline.
I have reason to believe the CTC scheme is going to become more popular in the future.
Its a bit frightening, ATPL + MCC + Type Rating/CTC and suddenly you are talking real money!
WWW
Its a bit frightening, ATPL + MCC + Type Rating/CTC and suddenly you are talking real money!
WWW
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Buying type ratings is such a game for *Jim Carey voice* "LOOO - HOOO-OOOSSERSS!!*
They're not expanding, so where is this miraculous F/O job going to appear from? Hmmm. Could it be by any chance at the expense of some bloke who bought his rating 6 months ago who is about to be thrown out on his ear, to make way for the next wave of type-rating-buyers? Guess what guys, those people make just about as much money from selling type ratings to wannabes as they do from flying freight
Regarding the twin advice. Yes I have been told that too. But if you look at the other TR related post. One guy with thousands of hours on Turbo Props was turned down in favour of someone with 200hrs and a 737 type rating.
Obvisouly you don't get through the fATPL process by being stupid so all of us should have there wherewithal to minimise risk and maximise potential at every opportunity.
As for me being an oldie wannabe I will be looking at the regionals. No fancy Jet job ideas here...yet. So I will almost certainly have to cough up for a TR. Not that I want to but I really cannot expect anything else, I also would like to be in a negotiating position when I have enough hours to warrant a reasonable level of experience.
Thanks for your frank views,
Kef.
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WWW I'm a bit confused by your second sentance. I thought the idea of the CTC scheme was that you pay for the AQC which includes MCC, then your type rating is sponsored by the airline.
If you have reason to beleive that the CTC scheme will become more popular (I guess you beleive more airlines will use it?), why would that increase the money we have to fork out? I'd have thought it would get rid of the self-funded type rating business.
Now all I have to do is find someone to sponsor my licence training......
If you have reason to beleive that the CTC scheme will become more popular (I guess you beleive more airlines will use it?), why would that increase the money we have to fork out? I'd have thought it would get rid of the self-funded type rating business.
Now all I have to do is find someone to sponsor my licence training......