Cpl First Or Ir?

[mlee]

Hi, just looking for some advice really, done my ground exams with BGS, I currently have 125 hours, i'm in the middle of hour building towards my CPL but it seems to be taking forever!!! Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on doing the IR before the CPL?
Any feedback would be great.

[TheOne83]

I don't think it really matters.. If i'm not wrong most schools normally do IR first and then CPL or opposit
You said that you had 125 hours, if i was you and could choose i will start IR as for CPL you need 150 hours, seems there is no other outway for the moment and if it's taking forever as you said, don't think twice, go for IR. Simple, eh?

Good luck and congratulations for your succed in your exams.

/niko

[Megaton]

CPL first then IR is the natural progression. Start with the (predominantly) VFR skills of the CPL and then move on to the more demanding IR. Furthermore, CPL training is generally cheaper so it makes sense to build your experience at this level before moving on to the much more expensive IR. It may be theoretically possible to do IR first then CPL and achieve an overall hour saving but for every one success of this route I guarantee you there are a half a dozen for whom it costs much more. Also, reverting back to looking out of the window after you've had your eyes glued to the instrument panel will take a little while in itself.

Most schools go for CPL then IR. Ask yourself why.

[MIKECR]

The school I am at just now suggest IR first then CPL. I started the MEIR at the beginning of December and am managing to get through it without any major problems. Dont get me wrong, its hard work, but not impossible. The course starts with the very basics so its not a case of being thrown straight in at the deep end on day one and be expected to fly holds or ILS's, more like simple tracking, turning onto headings, just the basics. It all builds steadily from there, a steep learning curve though. As a slight aside, I cant see that 25 hours of VFR CPL flying in an SEP would have prepaired for me for the IR, its completely different. There are 2 lads ahead of me at the moment who did the IR 1st and are now doing the CPL, they both feel that it is a bit of a waste of time having to do it, at least theyve knocked it down to 15 hours though. Go for the IR first!

[Megaton]

Exactly! There is a natural progression from CPL to IR and not vice versa.

[MIKECR]

Ham Phisted,

There may be as you say, "a natural progression" one way and not the other. Whilst that may be true, my two colleagues ahead of me that I mentioned, are certainly not finding the transition back to VFR flying difficult. Theyre actually rather enjoying it and finding it pretty easy compared to the IR. They also commented that the CPL 1st would not have prepaired them for IR.

I guess theres never going to be a right or wrong with this old debate.

[Megaton]

I'll give you the names of half a dozen guys who tried the IR first but whose skills and knowledge weren't up to scratch. Cost them a lot of money. I have no axe to grind either way since I finished my CPL/IR 3 years ago now. I would just caution that, for most, the CPL first is a more sensible move before progressing on to the harder and more expensive IR.

Anyway, must go and check the weather in Berlin and Dusseldorf. Toodle pip and good luck!

[mlee]

Just another quick question(I may of heard this wrong).
Can you do an instructor rating before/during your cpl and instruct but not get paid for it?

[Cloud 99]

I think the problem you are finding here is that one pilot can only ever advise the pitfalls/benefits of doing things the way they have done. Any other comments come from third parties "I could name half a dozen guys". Unless you have done it both ways, you cannot tell if they would have felt the same doing it the other way round.

Personally I completed IR before CPL. I found this to be beneficial to me as my accuracy was much better having completed IR, and it prepared me for a more commercial environment. However I did find it very strange going back to VFR flying again. Things to consider are how comfortable you are in VFR flying, if you have done all of your flying in the UK (radio work can affect your IR considerably), and how much experience of IFR flying you have.

The best advice I could give you is speak to the training schools, and their students. Get as much info as possible. Then make up your own mind.

C99

[sam34]

Originally Posted by Cloud 99

However I did find it very strange going back to VFR flying again. Things to consider are how comfortable you are in VFR flying, if you have done all of your flying in the UK (radio work can affect your IR considerably), and how much experience of IFR flying you have.
C99

I agree wih cloud...
I have a PPL (I'm french) and I wonder the same question.. IR or CPL first.
If you read the requierements JAR FCL for IR, it is written " have a PPL or CPL". so an IR course is for PPL AND CPL! If it was so difficul to do IR just after PPL why they would write that ??

But with my PPL and 110 hours of flight, i hesitate too... because I do not know how difficult IR is... we have an little idea of CPL course because it is a PPL "avanced" but IR we do not know well.

CLOUD, I do not understand very well your quote... what do you mean ? that VFR is easier than IR ??
I ask you that because I heard guys who said me that IFR is easier and more confortable because you are priority, you do not look for little town, little things, you just follow a track...
Most guys I met, they told me that IR is better than VFR when you know what is IR.
I do not know IR but in VFR i think it sometimes is difficult for example :
When you do not know well the country and the controller ask you to call back over a little town... or the VfR radio is pretty large :
" control FXXXX, from paris to london, VFR with flight plan, level 050, over St Patelin-pomé, with information echo, siera echo time 35, requesting transit papa papa golf etc.."

But I think if you want to do Ir before CPL you have to fly during your hours building with accurate. it depends how you do your hours building. Fly with an instructor if you think having a few bad skills.

I have 110 hours and I still wonder if I do IR or CPL... I try at the moment to fly as if I was a CPL for getting good skills.

[potkettleblack]

Generally the guys and gals that did the IR first at my school struggled to a degree with the CPL. They found it tough to look out the window and all this bashing around in open FIR off airways maintaining your own separation whilst trying to find some little dot of a town with a road going W/E through it and a disused railway track drove them to dispair! Due mainly to the fact that the aircraft had a perfectly serviceable set of IFR kit that they weren't allowed to use until they were off on a diversion leg.

The whole training system is a bit of an ar*e really anyway and we could debate for years about the merits of what we learn in anycase but in my opinion at least by doing the IR last then you can put to bed all the CPL rubbish and be up to speed with things like holds, SIDs, STARs etc which you are likely to get in a sim ride as opposed to debating the merits of obtaining a MATZ penetration which I can guarantee you will not.

[sam34]

Originally Posted by potkettleblack

but in my opinion at least by doing the IR last then you can put to bed all the CPL rubbish and be up to speed with things like holds, SIDs, STARs etc

I agree, CPL is VFR, it is not the most important!
but if you do the IR before CPL, you REALLY put to bed all the CPL because you fly 15 during the CPL course whereas you fly 25 if you do the IR after the CPL...
don't you agree with that ?
I do not say which way is the best, but i am just saying in this case, hours in VFR rules is not very important compared to IFR hours.

[potkettleblack]

Where are you getting your numbers from? LASORS states a minimum of 25 hours for the CPL and 50 for the IR. If you do the IR first then I think it goes up to 55 hours. Additionally if you go multi engine all the way then the multi rating and CPL can be done in 28 hours total followed by a 50 hour IR. Perhaps your numbers are for converting an FAA???

[GgW]

potkettleblack
If you have a IR, the cpl is only 15 hours.

LASORS 2007
Section D 1.2 (D)
Applicants with a valid JAR-FCL or ICAO
Instrument Rating (Aeroplane) shall be given at
least 15 hours dual visual flight instruction, and
shall be fully credited towards the dual instrument
instruction time. The same credit may be given to
applicants who have completed an IR(A) modular
course of training and passed IR(A) skill test but
who have yet to apply for the issue of the IR(A),
provided the IR(A) course and JAR CPL(A)
modular course are conducted independent of
each other, and that there is no training overlap
between the two courses.

Also have a look at all the "big" modular schools websites, They do it in 15 hours.
Cheers
GGW

[MIKECR]

My MEIR course is 55 hours(35 in the sim, 20 in the A/C). When I finish, I will only have 15 hours of the CPL to do. I think sam34 has perhaps read the requirements the wrong way round.

[swervin'mervin]

Think of it this way too......... I did my IR before the CPL, so only had 15 hour CPL course. That is a whole 10 hours less VFR flying in cruddy British weather. As a result my CPL took 7 days to complete. Time factors may become important to some!