Unfreezing ATPL
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Unfreezing ATPL - subtle change
It was pointed out to me recently that the CAA ATPL unfreezing requirements had subtly changed - the night hours requirement has now become 100 hrs P1 not 100 hours TT (see the GID on the subject, sorry I don't have a reference). If you are from the CAA and are reading this please tell me a) it's not true and b) if it's true why has it been changed at this late stage.
BASTARDS!
BASTARDS!
Last edited by DB6; 8th May 2002 at 17:42.
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I can tell you it is partially true for having experienced the inconvenience of a rejected application last October.
Night time as P1, P2 or P1 US (has to be signed the P1) will be taken into account for the 100 hours night required.
I got lucky (twice I suppose) because I got a job in December and following that, I did a fair amount of night flying. it allowed me to clear the mini requirements without further problem.
DB6
Not sure what you mean by "it has been changed at this late stage". I might be wrong but when I applied in October, I had simply misread the requirements so this isn't exactly new, new.
Good luck anyway
Night time as P1, P2 or P1 US (has to be signed the P1) will be taken into account for the 100 hours night required.
I got lucky (twice I suppose) because I got a job in December and following that, I did a fair amount of night flying. it allowed me to clear the mini requirements without further problem.
DB6
Not sure what you mean by "it has been changed at this late stage". I might be wrong but when I applied in October, I had simply misread the requirements so this isn't exactly new, new.
Good luck anyway
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Have a look at the CAA-SRG website and it all becomes clear.
If you don't have Adobe Acrobat, here's the quote from GID 25 Dec 01. ATPL Hours.
Part 2, Table 1, part (e)
Night flight as pilot in command (PIC) or as Co Pilot (PIC/US or P2) minimum hours = 100
If you don't have Adobe Acrobat, here's the quote from GID 25 Dec 01. ATPL Hours.
Part 2, Table 1, part (e)
Night flight as pilot in command (PIC) or as Co Pilot (PIC/US or P2) minimum hours = 100
DB6 - Chill, Winston! Are you talking about a UK ATPL(A) or a JAR/FCL ATPL(A)?
As far as I'm aware, if it's a UK ATPL(A) that you're after, then before 30 Jun 2002 you need to have achieved 100 hours Night flying as Pilot of Aeroplanes or Helicopters, must include 50 hours P1C, P1C U/S or P2 of Aeroplanes - including 25 hours P1C or P1C U/S cross-country flying of Aeroplanes of which 5 must be as P1C including 10 take offs and landings plus 2 cross-country flights as P1C terminating at an aerodrome not less than 65 nautical miles from the point of departure (which may be flown in helicopters).
Whereas the night requirement for a JAR/FCL ATPL(A) is for 100 hours Night flight as Pilot-in-Command (P1C) or as Co-Pilot (P1C U/S or P2).
Suggest that you give the CAA a ring - and they really aren't 'bar stewards' any more- honest! Incidentally, if you've got an urgent need to complete your night hours before 30 Jun 02, then e-mail me!
It might also be the decent thing to do to change the heading for this thread slightly?
As far as I'm aware, if it's a UK ATPL(A) that you're after, then before 30 Jun 2002 you need to have achieved 100 hours Night flying as Pilot of Aeroplanes or Helicopters, must include 50 hours P1C, P1C U/S or P2 of Aeroplanes - including 25 hours P1C or P1C U/S cross-country flying of Aeroplanes of which 5 must be as P1C including 10 take offs and landings plus 2 cross-country flights as P1C terminating at an aerodrome not less than 65 nautical miles from the point of departure (which may be flown in helicopters).
Whereas the night requirement for a JAR/FCL ATPL(A) is for 100 hours Night flight as Pilot-in-Command (P1C) or as Co-Pilot (P1C U/S or P2).
Suggest that you give the CAA a ring - and they really aren't 'bar stewards' any more- honest! Incidentally, if you've got an urgent need to complete your night hours before 30 Jun 02, then e-mail me!
It might also be the decent thing to do to change the heading for this thread slightly?
Last edited by BEagle; 6th May 2002 at 17:23.
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Aha! Thanks BEagle, it becomes clear. I was working to the GID in my grubby mitts which details the UK ATPL requirements, towards which I am inching. I was recently shown an updated GID detailing what are evidently the JAR requirements and got a bit batey as a result, which as Luke and Chocks will testify is totally out of character 
. Therefore, sorry CAA, didn't mean it, however JAA....BASTARDS!
(Just to clarify, my original BASTARDS! was referring to the injustice of the system - which means that I will probably be about 30 night hours short by the deadline as I can't afford a trip to USA what with apprentice pilot cub 2 on the way - not specifically the CAA, who I have found aren't bad eggs.)
Plus it's one of the few expletives that one can utter in all its glory on PPrune. Marvellous.
. Therefore, sorry CAA, didn't mean it, however JAA....BASTARDS!(Just to clarify, my original BASTARDS! was referring to the injustice of the system - which means that I will probably be about 30 night hours short by the deadline as I can't afford a trip to USA what with apprentice pilot cub 2 on the way - not specifically the CAA, who I have found aren't bad eggs.)
Plus it's one of the few expletives that one can utter in all its glory on PPrune. Marvellous.
BASTARDS! You're right.
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Further to my last, and I stand to be corrected on this, on examination of the UK requirements a sneaky little (no dual flying) has been inserted into the requirements for 100 hrs TT. That being the case, back to my original : BAAAASTAAAARDS!!!!!!!
This GID was sent to a mate of mine by the CAA when he asked them about the current requirements for the UK ATPL earlier this year. My GID was from last year; the change has been made since then. I rest my case.
This GID was sent to a mate of mine by the CAA when he asked them about the current requirements for the UK ATPL earlier this year. My GID was from last year; the change has been made since then. I rest my case.
Last edited by DB6; 9th May 2002 at 17:28.
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Time Limit to ATPL exams
Is there any limit to the amount of time you can take to complete the ATPL theory exams and unfreeze your license? I seem to recall hearing 5 years, but I don't know it that was a rumour or not.
I never thought this question would be a consideration, but I guess it has to be now...
I never thought this question would be a consideration, but I guess it has to be now...
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Elnino- if you're still taking ATPL theory exams, you don't have a frozen ATPL. That only comes into the equation when you have passed all the exams and flight tests and are waitng for the hours to pass the 1500 TT etc (i.e you have a CPL with ATPL theory). If you have a current IR, then the ATPL exams credits stay with you for 7 years past your last IR test, which should be long enough to unfreeze it all
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Why all the rush to unfreeze ATPLs?
What good is an ATPL without Multi-pilot time?
I had a Frozen ATPL and recently paid the fee and got a JAR CPL with ATPL knowledge credit. There was no requirement other than to cough up the fee and the same rules apply to the ATPL credit on the JAR licence with regard to the IR.
Me thinks that paying the JAR fee is far cheaper than paying for lots of hours.
DFC
What good is an ATPL without Multi-pilot time?
I had a Frozen ATPL and recently paid the fee and got a JAR CPL with ATPL knowledge credit. There was no requirement other than to cough up the fee and the same rules apply to the ATPL credit on the JAR licence with regard to the IR.
Me thinks that paying the JAR fee is far cheaper than paying for lots of hours.
DFC
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In fact, not only have I ensured that my ATPL exam credit remain subject to the old 7 year after IR requirement. BUT, I have a licence which is far more valuable than any NATIONAL licence.
Perhaps the money I spent on the 1 for 1 licence ( and I still hold a NATIONAL licence) was very, very , very well spent.
MMMMMM How much for 100hours night time???
How much for a JAR licence???
Who has lost out then ????????????????????
DFC
Perhaps the money I spent on the 1 for 1 licence ( and I still hold a NATIONAL licence) was very, very , very well spent.
MMMMMM How much for 100hours night time???
How much for a JAR licence???
Who has lost out then ????????????????????
DFC
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Unfreeze JAA CPL without skill test ?
In the JAA system you can't unfreeze a CPL/frozen license without a skill test on a multi pilot aeroplane as pilot in command. Does the UK CAA really unfreeze UK issued JAA CPL/frozens without requiring a skill test ? I have by far passed all the requirements for a JAA ATPL, all I need is a skill test on a MPA as pilot in command. I even have a skill test on a MPA as copilot only, it's not enough. If you are in doubt, read JAR-FCL 1.295 (pasted below).
I know that the UK national system has a magic wand feature of unfreezing a UK CPL/frozen without a skill test, but in most other JAA countries, there is/has been a skill test requirement before the issue of the ATPL, even before JAA.
Whether a JAA CPL/frozen and an JAA ATPL are equally worth, I would say no. ATPL's open far more doors that CPL's. They also "guarantee" that you have passed at least one skill test as PIC on a multi pilot aeroplane. Unless it is a UK ATPL, of course, because as I can see it you can get a UK ATPL on a Piper Seneca, right ?
By the way, "(see AMC FCL 1.220 part B)" in the text below means REAL multi pilot aeroplanes, not King Airs, Metroliners, B1900's etc, which are all Single Pilot Aeroplanes according to JAA. Many pilots think they will do, but look it up yourself in AMC FCL 1.220 part B if you don't believe it.
JAR-FCL 1.295 Skill
An applicant for an ATPL(A) shall have
demonstrated the ability to perform, as pilot-in-
[command of an aeroplane type certificated for]
a minimum crew of two pilots under IFR (see
AMC FCL 1.220 part B), the procedures and
manoeuvres described in Appendices 1 and 2 to
[JAR-FCL 1.240 and 1.295 with a degree of
competency appropriate to the privileges
granted to the holder of an ATPL(A).
The ATPL(A) skill test may serve at the
same time as a skill test for the issue of the
licence and a proficiency check for the
revalidation of the type rating for the aeroplane
used in the test and may be combined with the
skill test for the issue of a multi-pilot type
rating.
(a)
(b)
[Amdt. I , Oi.06.OOJ
I know that the UK national system has a magic wand feature of unfreezing a UK CPL/frozen without a skill test, but in most other JAA countries, there is/has been a skill test requirement before the issue of the ATPL, even before JAA.
Whether a JAA CPL/frozen and an JAA ATPL are equally worth, I would say no. ATPL's open far more doors that CPL's. They also "guarantee" that you have passed at least one skill test as PIC on a multi pilot aeroplane. Unless it is a UK ATPL, of course, because as I can see it you can get a UK ATPL on a Piper Seneca, right ?
By the way, "(see AMC FCL 1.220 part B)" in the text below means REAL multi pilot aeroplanes, not King Airs, Metroliners, B1900's etc, which are all Single Pilot Aeroplanes according to JAA. Many pilots think they will do, but look it up yourself in AMC FCL 1.220 part B if you don't believe it.
JAR-FCL 1.295 Skill
An applicant for an ATPL(A) shall have
demonstrated the ability to perform, as pilot-in-
[command of an aeroplane type certificated for]
a minimum crew of two pilots under IFR (see
AMC FCL 1.220 part B), the procedures and
manoeuvres described in Appendices 1 and 2 to
[JAR-FCL 1.240 and 1.295 with a degree of
competency appropriate to the privileges
granted to the holder of an ATPL(A).
The ATPL(A) skill test may serve at the
same time as a skill test for the issue of the
licence and a proficiency check for the
revalidation of the type rating for the aeroplane
used in the test and may be combined with the
skill test for the issue of a multi-pilot type
rating.
(a)
(b)
[Amdt. I , Oi.06.OOJ
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5 years to unfreeze the ATPL
1) Would this be after passing the IRT ?
2) If one was flying in the right hand seat with a frozen ATPL would yours exam credits revert to CPL, even though people tend not to sit the CPL exams these days prior to the ATPL's ?
2) If one was flying in the right hand seat with a frozen ATPL would yours exam credits revert to CPL, even though people tend not to sit the CPL exams these days prior to the ATPL's ?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Where did you get the 5 year figure from Base Leg?
As far as I'm aware, the ATPL exam credits remain valid as long as the last IR re-validation in your CPL is less than 7 years old. As long as you keep your IR valid, there's no limit. And I don't recall ever hearing 5 years as a limit for anything.
FFF
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As far as I'm aware, the ATPL exam credits remain valid as long as the last IR re-validation in your CPL is less than 7 years old. As long as you keep your IR valid, there's no limit. And I don't recall ever hearing 5 years as a limit for anything.
FFF
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As I understood it, the 5 year rule only applied to those in pursuit of the UK CAA ATPL. If you haven't done that by now then I think you're too late. My FTO explained it to me that so long as you have your CPL issued within certain period (3 yrs?) your ATPL credits remain alive indefinately. This is all because of the JAA regs of 'unfreezing' requirements - 500hrs multi crew etc.
Maybe things have changed (again) but that's how it came across as we all started the transition to JAA training.
Rgds
RM
Maybe things have changed (again) but that's how it came across as we all started the transition to JAA training.
Rgds
RM