EPST
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EPST
Hiya,
Just a quick question about this sponsorship thing that EPST run - Does it guarantee you a job assuming that you complete the training?? Been looking everywhere for information (web site isnīt much use)
Thanks.
Tunny
Just a quick question about this sponsorship thing that EPST run - Does it guarantee you a job assuming that you complete the training?? Been looking everywhere for information (web site isnīt much use)
Thanks.
Tunny
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As i understand it you do get a job. Thats why you pay epst. They give you a type rating then look at the likes of ryanair, easyjet and the like to see who needs pilots.
I think - but cant be sure - that if you dont get a job in 18 months you get some/all your money back....but that was before the 11th... Give them a call. Cabair may be able to put you in touch, although EPST are'nt sending sponsored students there now - Jerez i think.
I think - but cant be sure - that if you dont get a job in 18 months you get some/all your money back....but that was before the 11th... Give them a call. Cabair may be able to put you in touch, although EPST are'nt sending sponsored students there now - Jerez i think.
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EPST are now sending their students to West Michgan alongside BA, Aer Lingus and Emirates. From what I have heard they operate along the same lines as the GAPAN sponsorship. They pay for your frozen atpl, plus a jet orientation course. Then they try and get you a job within a European airline of which they have many contacts. But I do not think they guarantee an airline career, just a promise to do the best for you.
Another thing that I heard is that you have to sign a form to allow all your theory exams results to be public knowledge. So they must all be passed first time to ensure a chance with one of the major carriers.
Another thing that I heard is that you have to sign a form to allow all your theory exams results to be public knowledge. So they must all be passed first time to ensure a chance with one of the major carriers.
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Well, almost right Bulldog. What they get these days is a JAA CPL/IR. Exam results are not public knowledge, they are known to instructors and the EPST management only (apart from the students themnselves). As for the standard they must reach, that is also confidential and kept within those circles. Just like BA cadets, you should not be surprised to know!
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It is the ATP-academy that sends the EPST-trainnee after his period at WMU to an English airliner I understand. But does the ATP-academy still have the same contracts with the airliners after 09/11 ? Is there somebody who knows something more ??
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Be very, very careful!
I will be as objective as possible here.
1) EPST is a profit making organisation.
2) EPST market themselves as a recruiter for the airlines. On the website they used to have the BA logo. BAs head of pilot recruitment had to phone the head of EPST to ask them to remove it as there is not a relationship between BA and EPST, and never has been.
3) The EPST cadets which were sent to michigan were under the impression they had been "preselected" for British airways. This was the impression that they had been given. There was never ANY relationship or agreement between BA and EPST.
4) They ( the cadets) were told that if they were good enough for EPST there was " no reason BA or any other airline shouldnt take them. the fact that each airline looks for different things in its pilots seems to have been overlooked.
Regarding payment, depending who you talk to, the word differs but the last i heard was -the EPST cadet pays the course up front. EPST then through their "extensive " contacts place their students in the airlines. The aim is within 2 yrs as after that time the cadet has to start paying the loan off, independent of if its a flying job or not. EPST aim to place them but cannot obviously guarantee a job. They are not an airline and airlines have their own recruitment processes.
points 2 and 3 imply a certain amount of dishonesty on EPSTs part. Be VERY, VERY careful of anything they tell you.
The boss of EPST also had the cheek to suggest to the cadets they pay for his dinner when he was out to visit them in michigan. Note theyre students and will have huge debts at the end. I guess you dont get to become a successful businessman by declining free lunches.
Speak to EPST but read the small print and ask for evidence of successful placement in the past, i bet he doesnt have any figures on time and location of positioning. Also i bet you dont get a lot of notice before the courses start"or else you might miss this oppurtunity"
The EPST cadets ive met are good guys, academically very good anyway, but are slightly niave to have bought all the b******* thats been sold to them to get them to buy into the course. Its easy to mislead teenagers and then lumber them with a mortgage which theyll be paying off forever.
I do wish you all the best whatever you decide to do.
I will be as objective as possible here.
1) EPST is a profit making organisation.
2) EPST market themselves as a recruiter for the airlines. On the website they used to have the BA logo. BAs head of pilot recruitment had to phone the head of EPST to ask them to remove it as there is not a relationship between BA and EPST, and never has been.
3) The EPST cadets which were sent to michigan were under the impression they had been "preselected" for British airways. This was the impression that they had been given. There was never ANY relationship or agreement between BA and EPST.
4) They ( the cadets) were told that if they were good enough for EPST there was " no reason BA or any other airline shouldnt take them. the fact that each airline looks for different things in its pilots seems to have been overlooked.
Regarding payment, depending who you talk to, the word differs but the last i heard was -the EPST cadet pays the course up front. EPST then through their "extensive " contacts place their students in the airlines. The aim is within 2 yrs as after that time the cadet has to start paying the loan off, independent of if its a flying job or not. EPST aim to place them but cannot obviously guarantee a job. They are not an airline and airlines have their own recruitment processes.
points 2 and 3 imply a certain amount of dishonesty on EPSTs part. Be VERY, VERY careful of anything they tell you.
The boss of EPST also had the cheek to suggest to the cadets they pay for his dinner when he was out to visit them in michigan. Note theyre students and will have huge debts at the end. I guess you dont get to become a successful businessman by declining free lunches.
Speak to EPST but read the small print and ask for evidence of successful placement in the past, i bet he doesnt have any figures on time and location of positioning. Also i bet you dont get a lot of notice before the courses start"or else you might miss this oppurtunity"
The EPST cadets ive met are good guys, academically very good anyway, but are slightly niave to have bought all the b******* thats been sold to them to get them to buy into the course. Its easy to mislead teenagers and then lumber them with a mortgage which theyll be paying off forever.
I do wish you all the best whatever you decide to do.
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Hi there!
I am in no way an official spokeperson for EPST but I feel that I could help here.
Having been involved somewhat in their selection process, I can tell you that EPST is a professional organisation.
They do not guarantee you a place with BA.
They, in conjunction with WMU can only recommend you to the BA Self Sponsored Pilot recruitment scheme. OAT do the same I believe.
They do however, guarantee that you will be placed into the right hand seat of a jet through CTC known as the ATP scheme.
If you are not selected for or by BA, then you will go through the ATP scheme.
The ATP scheme involves being placed in an airline for 6 months as a first officer. The respective airline will then offer you employment subject to suitability.
Selection for EPST is not easy. You have to complete a computer aptitude test, mathematical and mechanical tests, group assessments, an interview, and a simulator check. This is all done to figure out if you have the 'right stuff' to jump into a right hand seat of a jet immediately after training with the bare minimum of 200 hrs. The selection also gives the bank confidence that the $88,000 unsecured loan can be paid back....with interest of-course.
I would not say that the cadets are naive. They are wannabes with the aspiration to fly for a living despite the 'apparent' drawbacks.
Here is something for all to ponder on: there is no such thing as free pilot training. There is however 'interest free' pilot training. BA cadets effectively pay off part of the costs during their first five years of training. (FO starting salary p/a - a few bob = CEP salary p/a)
BMI cadets pay half on ab-initio and more is deducted from them still after training for a few years.
I've been babbling on for a bit now but I think by now, you've got my drift, so that now you can adjust your thought heading and you will be pretty much on track as far as EPST is concerned. (Cheesy I know, but hey, someones gotta say it
)
Best wishes for Christmas and the New Year all.
SP
I am in no way an official spokeperson for EPST but I feel that I could help here.
Having been involved somewhat in their selection process, I can tell you that EPST is a professional organisation.
They do not guarantee you a place with BA.
They, in conjunction with WMU can only recommend you to the BA Self Sponsored Pilot recruitment scheme. OAT do the same I believe.
They do however, guarantee that you will be placed into the right hand seat of a jet through CTC known as the ATP scheme.
If you are not selected for or by BA, then you will go through the ATP scheme.
The ATP scheme involves being placed in an airline for 6 months as a first officer. The respective airline will then offer you employment subject to suitability.
Selection for EPST is not easy. You have to complete a computer aptitude test, mathematical and mechanical tests, group assessments, an interview, and a simulator check. This is all done to figure out if you have the 'right stuff' to jump into a right hand seat of a jet immediately after training with the bare minimum of 200 hrs. The selection also gives the bank confidence that the $88,000 unsecured loan can be paid back....with interest of-course.
I would not say that the cadets are naive. They are wannabes with the aspiration to fly for a living despite the 'apparent' drawbacks.
Here is something for all to ponder on: there is no such thing as free pilot training. There is however 'interest free' pilot training. BA cadets effectively pay off part of the costs during their first five years of training. (FO starting salary p/a - a few bob = CEP salary p/a)
BMI cadets pay half on ab-initio and more is deducted from them still after training for a few years.
I've been babbling on for a bit now but I think by now, you've got my drift, so that now you can adjust your thought heading and you will be pretty much on track as far as EPST is concerned. (Cheesy I know, but hey, someones gotta say it
)Best wishes for Christmas and the New Year all.
SP
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The discription above is quite accurate. They are a selection company, offering an ab-initio course to enter the ATP Scheme at the end. Offer includes a good financial setup with the bank.
More info at http://www.epst.com
Myself, and alot of my friends (that I made during training) went through the EPST training and are all flying RHS of a jet (146, 737, 757 and A320) for different airlines (easyJet, BE, BA, JMC, DutchBird, Go).
Those I know are either still in training or awaiting typerating at the moment. Nobody has been at home for a prolonged period of time, or 'forgotten' about. There have been 2 or 3 dropouts I won't deny, but that was caused by the students themselves, mostly motivational.
All in all EPST has simply delivered what they promised, no b*llsh*t!
More info at http://www.epst.com
Myself, and alot of my friends (that I made during training) went through the EPST training and are all flying RHS of a jet (146, 737, 757 and A320) for different airlines (easyJet, BE, BA, JMC, DutchBird, Go).
Those I know are either still in training or awaiting typerating at the moment. Nobody has been at home for a prolonged period of time, or 'forgotten' about. There have been 2 or 3 dropouts I won't deny, but that was caused by the students themselves, mostly motivational.
All in all EPST has simply delivered what they promised, no b*llsh*t!
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Dear Birdseed Jr,
I don't know where you got your info from, but I can tell you it's wrong. Before you post another message again on pprune in the future, make sure you know what you are talking about. Doesn't look very professional to me.
An EPST student in Michigan.
I don't know where you got your info from, but I can tell you it's wrong. Before you post another message again on pprune in the future, make sure you know what you are talking about. Doesn't look very professional to me.
An EPST student in Michigan.
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I met the CEO of EPST in MI (I used to live in Kalamazoo)while at the FAA Flight Camp thingybobmijig. The guy was really honest about the %s and the #s going thru them and beyond, and the company's future plan in using England based training facilities.
He drew me up the plan and it seemed really good.
Good luck to all trainees at WMU, you're in a great school! (but you get crappy lunch)
Steve
He drew me up the plan and it seemed really good.
Good luck to all trainees at WMU, you're in a great school! (but you get crappy lunch)
Steve
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Are EPST accepting British wannabes cash now? When I was training there was a bit of a hoo-hah regarding the enequitable nature of the scheme.
I did the EPST thing in reverse, because it wasn't available for UK guys then. I paid for myself through ab-initio training, and then applied to the ATP scheme with my CPL/IR. I was fortunate to be accepted and was subsequently placed for six months with Air2000.
The ATP scheme and EPST are really one and the same. It is the ATP scheme (CTC aviation) that have the contacts and the ability to place cadets in the RHS. If you think you're of the right stuff then apply to the ATP scheme after training. The tests, interviews, sim cx, group ex's are exactly the same as the ones EPST do at the 'front end' before the training starts.
Good luck whichever way you do it. I cannot stress enough the quality of the ATP organisation, and I owe all my success to the guys there.
...and to all my Dutch friends, love and kisses. xx
Merry Chrimbo.
I did the EPST thing in reverse, because it wasn't available for UK guys then. I paid for myself through ab-initio training, and then applied to the ATP scheme with my CPL/IR. I was fortunate to be accepted and was subsequently placed for six months with Air2000.
The ATP scheme and EPST are really one and the same. It is the ATP scheme (CTC aviation) that have the contacts and the ability to place cadets in the RHS. If you think you're of the right stuff then apply to the ATP scheme after training. The tests, interviews, sim cx, group ex's are exactly the same as the ones EPST do at the 'front end' before the training starts.
Good luck whichever way you do it. I cannot stress enough the quality of the ATP organisation, and I owe all my success to the guys there.
...and to all my Dutch friends, love and kisses. xx
Merry Chrimbo.
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Id like to respond to some of the comments regarding my previous post.
The post began when somone asked what the story was with EPST.
I responded with my observations from the EPST cadets i have encountered, and do encounter every day.
I have no wish to attack them. The information i gave came from the EPST cadets through conversation with them. If they dispute what i have said then it is they that are unable to articulate what EPST is. The others who have read this post who are familiar with these cadets have not seen anything less than truthful in my previous post.
Anyway know that is off my chest, i will respond to the points made.
Firstly ill quotes some of the comments which i can swear on both my enormous bollocks were made by the first group of EPST cadets to arrive in WMU. I will say that it is these cadets that were given the incorrect impression and have no idea and therefore cannot offer any opinion on what EPST have told them. What i will say is that the second course of EPST cadets i met, are not under the same impression as the first.
The quotes
1) "If we get more than 85% in our exams then theres no reason for BA not to take us"
2) "Were as much part of BA as you are"
3) "I was told i was preselcted for BA"- to head of BA pilot recruitment.
4) "Well can you tell me what i am doin here"-again to head of BA pilot recruitment after previous statements response was in the negative.
(slightly more aggressively spoken)
5) EPST cadets very upset with BA cadet who ordered BA t-shirts who hadnt ordered them for EPST cadets.
6) If you can find the speedbird 7 website, ( i couldnt actually, but im told it exists) then a member of EPST posted a mesage describing he/him (as coming to WMU later in the year) as speedbird 9.
7) "When will we be introduced to BA?"- said by EPST cadet to senior WMU official during post sept 11th briefing, illustrating the current predicament following the attacks and the implications on VFR flying, security and the ineviatable problems it will cause for pilot recruitment.
Thermy,
In response to your post,
a) "i dont know where you got your info from "
b) "Doesnt look very professional to me"
If i have your identity correct, ( MS with leopard skin), hopefully this is sufficiently subtle( even though thats not your strong point) to let you know that i know who you are without embarassing you further, you can manage that yourself. If youre not who i think you are, then please ignore the below comment.
A) i got quite a lot of info from you! Points 3,4,5,6 and 7 above were quotes from you! Can you believe that!- if you have anything you can add to this post or dispute the points i made, then please do so, im attempting to inform tunneller of the bad points of EPST, if you can counter them then do so, dont just post an uninformative post criticising anothers post without backing it up in some way- thats not unprofessional, its just useless.
Secondly, regarding what i should and shouldnt post here, this is a rumour network. I am entitled to post positive and negative things as required and i am professional enough to consider very carefully what i post, and ensure that it is as objective as possible.
Talking of being unprofessional, a little public email that went around post dinner would probably demonstrate how "professional" you are. Dont tell me it was confidential because you sent it to the whole course. You obviously arent opposed to public criticism of others, so why cant they criticise you? No i can put my hand on heart and tell you i wouldnt do that, but i think ive proven my point.
Now having said all that, i heard a rumour that some of the EPST cadets actually emailed the moderator to have this thread closed.( i think a nerve may have been taouched)
I gather the response was in the negative. If this is incorrect, then im sure i will be correcred by WWW or scroggs. As i said in the first sentence of the paragraph, it is a RUMOUR i heard. Requesting this smacks of censorship, surely reasoned debate would help attract EPST cadets, rather than thermys enlightend comments. If a line pilot requested that any time a negative comment was made about their airline, then pprune would slow to a grinding halt. Its called free speech guys, get a life. Im also told that the cadets contacted the head of EPST who told them not to worry. That in itself imroves my impression of him.
Attempting to find my identity too by asking around who was in the computer room when my first reply was posted and investigating with robotic like precision is extremely anal, get over it!
What i would further like to add is that i heard
that one EPST cadet in thinks that hell be a captain in 6 years. THis is maybe good marketing be EPST, or is that brainwashing. Or is it just niave. If a FO becomes a captain in six year, and theres an equal number of captains and FOs in an airline, then surely you must retire after 12 yrs. This cant be correct can it???
Also i heard another rumour that one of the previous posts (b747-sp) is the son of EPSTs founder. If this isnt correct, then my apologies 747-sp.and if its another poster, then please identify yourself as such.
Now if you want to reply to the points i made, then do me the service of doing so to help those who may be thinking of applying to EPST. If you can produce a copy of the contract stating what guarantee EPST give you about placement and more importantly what happens if youre not placed, do you owe any cash, does EPST pay it off? I dont know, you tell us, show us the contract.
To finish, i know youre aware im a BA cadet, my previous post on another thread stated that, and i know you looked-(sherlock homes would be proud). I have been very careful not to make this sound like a BA cadet versus EPST cadet thread. If that kind of thread had been started on Jetblast i wouldnt have bothered even looking at it twice, never mind posting. We all saw the hammering Vref and carnage matey gave seneca soarer-most of the BA cadets sat back and let it roll-the malicious tuff was what got that thread closed down, but i dont know of any BA cadet who asked for that thread to be closed, just because people came out who had a bad impression of us, rightly or wrongly.
I dont wish to make this a competition, really , i wish you all the best, but some of you seem too think that it is. If anyone can be bothered find EPST 1swebsite. Look for the "breaking news"- it stated EPST cadets beat BA cadets in class exams. Now tell me thats not anal. One), We didnt know there was a competion 2) we hope everyone in the class does well 3) apparently your marks were better by 1% average- who the hell counted that up, who cared enough to even make the effort to find that out? Shame on you, we should all be in his together. Youll probably think this is sour grapes, but i can put my hand on both balls and say it honestly is not. ( However i wonder what the average would have been if one of you number hadnt gone home with a mystery illness the doctors in america couldnt diagnose which then mysteriously cleared up when they went home!)In fact if you take their mark at their exams later on, i bet the average is changed, and not in your favour!! If your target mark is 85% and EPSTs average was 84 and BA 83, while BAs target marks were 75%, then surely we actually beat you??
I dont wish to air dirty laundry in public, but if you my integrity,thermy but accusing me of posting without thinking about the advice i gave to a wannabee, then i will respond proportionally. I would question your selective memory of the things that you have said.
Anyway i think i have taken up enough space, my last post threw the cat amongst the pigeons, i wonder if this will do the same.
Again if any previous EPST cadets have views then i would be interested to hear them. If they havent been led up the garden path, i would like to hear their views.
Have a happy christmas everyone.
The post began when somone asked what the story was with EPST.
I responded with my observations from the EPST cadets i have encountered, and do encounter every day.
I have no wish to attack them. The information i gave came from the EPST cadets through conversation with them. If they dispute what i have said then it is they that are unable to articulate what EPST is. The others who have read this post who are familiar with these cadets have not seen anything less than truthful in my previous post.
Anyway know that is off my chest, i will respond to the points made.
Firstly ill quotes some of the comments which i can swear on both my enormous bollocks were made by the first group of EPST cadets to arrive in WMU. I will say that it is these cadets that were given the incorrect impression and have no idea and therefore cannot offer any opinion on what EPST have told them. What i will say is that the second course of EPST cadets i met, are not under the same impression as the first.
The quotes
1) "If we get more than 85% in our exams then theres no reason for BA not to take us"
2) "Were as much part of BA as you are"
3) "I was told i was preselcted for BA"- to head of BA pilot recruitment.
4) "Well can you tell me what i am doin here"-again to head of BA pilot recruitment after previous statements response was in the negative.
(slightly more aggressively spoken)
5) EPST cadets very upset with BA cadet who ordered BA t-shirts who hadnt ordered them for EPST cadets.
6) If you can find the speedbird 7 website, ( i couldnt actually, but im told it exists) then a member of EPST posted a mesage describing he/him (as coming to WMU later in the year) as speedbird 9.
7) "When will we be introduced to BA?"- said by EPST cadet to senior WMU official during post sept 11th briefing, illustrating the current predicament following the attacks and the implications on VFR flying, security and the ineviatable problems it will cause for pilot recruitment.
Thermy,
In response to your post,
a) "i dont know where you got your info from "
b) "Doesnt look very professional to me"
If i have your identity correct, ( MS with leopard skin), hopefully this is sufficiently subtle( even though thats not your strong point) to let you know that i know who you are without embarassing you further, you can manage that yourself. If youre not who i think you are, then please ignore the below comment.
A) i got quite a lot of info from you! Points 3,4,5,6 and 7 above were quotes from you! Can you believe that!- if you have anything you can add to this post or dispute the points i made, then please do so, im attempting to inform tunneller of the bad points of EPST, if you can counter them then do so, dont just post an uninformative post criticising anothers post without backing it up in some way- thats not unprofessional, its just useless.
Secondly, regarding what i should and shouldnt post here, this is a rumour network. I am entitled to post positive and negative things as required and i am professional enough to consider very carefully what i post, and ensure that it is as objective as possible.
Talking of being unprofessional, a little public email that went around post dinner would probably demonstrate how "professional" you are. Dont tell me it was confidential because you sent it to the whole course. You obviously arent opposed to public criticism of others, so why cant they criticise you? No i can put my hand on heart and tell you i wouldnt do that, but i think ive proven my point.
Now having said all that, i heard a rumour that some of the EPST cadets actually emailed the moderator to have this thread closed.( i think a nerve may have been taouched)
I gather the response was in the negative. If this is incorrect, then im sure i will be correcred by WWW or scroggs. As i said in the first sentence of the paragraph, it is a RUMOUR i heard. Requesting this smacks of censorship, surely reasoned debate would help attract EPST cadets, rather than thermys enlightend comments. If a line pilot requested that any time a negative comment was made about their airline, then pprune would slow to a grinding halt. Its called free speech guys, get a life. Im also told that the cadets contacted the head of EPST who told them not to worry. That in itself imroves my impression of him.
Attempting to find my identity too by asking around who was in the computer room when my first reply was posted and investigating with robotic like precision is extremely anal, get over it!
What i would further like to add is that i heard
that one EPST cadet in thinks that hell be a captain in 6 years. THis is maybe good marketing be EPST, or is that brainwashing. Or is it just niave. If a FO becomes a captain in six year, and theres an equal number of captains and FOs in an airline, then surely you must retire after 12 yrs. This cant be correct can it???
Also i heard another rumour that one of the previous posts (b747-sp) is the son of EPSTs founder. If this isnt correct, then my apologies 747-sp.and if its another poster, then please identify yourself as such.
Now if you want to reply to the points i made, then do me the service of doing so to help those who may be thinking of applying to EPST. If you can produce a copy of the contract stating what guarantee EPST give you about placement and more importantly what happens if youre not placed, do you owe any cash, does EPST pay it off? I dont know, you tell us, show us the contract.
To finish, i know youre aware im a BA cadet, my previous post on another thread stated that, and i know you looked-(sherlock homes would be proud). I have been very careful not to make this sound like a BA cadet versus EPST cadet thread. If that kind of thread had been started on Jetblast i wouldnt have bothered even looking at it twice, never mind posting. We all saw the hammering Vref and carnage matey gave seneca soarer-most of the BA cadets sat back and let it roll-the malicious tuff was what got that thread closed down, but i dont know of any BA cadet who asked for that thread to be closed, just because people came out who had a bad impression of us, rightly or wrongly.
I dont wish to make this a competition, really , i wish you all the best, but some of you seem too think that it is. If anyone can be bothered find EPST 1swebsite. Look for the "breaking news"- it stated EPST cadets beat BA cadets in class exams. Now tell me thats not anal. One), We didnt know there was a competion 2) we hope everyone in the class does well 3) apparently your marks were better by 1% average- who the hell counted that up, who cared enough to even make the effort to find that out? Shame on you, we should all be in his together. Youll probably think this is sour grapes, but i can put my hand on both balls and say it honestly is not. ( However i wonder what the average would have been if one of you number hadnt gone home with a mystery illness the doctors in america couldnt diagnose which then mysteriously cleared up when they went home!)In fact if you take their mark at their exams later on, i bet the average is changed, and not in your favour!! If your target mark is 85% and EPSTs average was 84 and BA 83, while BAs target marks were 75%, then surely we actually beat you??
I dont wish to air dirty laundry in public, but if you my integrity,thermy but accusing me of posting without thinking about the advice i gave to a wannabee, then i will respond proportionally. I would question your selective memory of the things that you have said.
Anyway i think i have taken up enough space, my last post threw the cat amongst the pigeons, i wonder if this will do the same.
Again if any previous EPST cadets have views then i would be interested to hear them. If they havent been led up the garden path, i would like to hear their views.
Have a happy christmas everyone.
Terrier
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F@cking grow up you lot. Stop being such a bunch of prima donnas.
The way yoyu lot go on, I can assure you I would hate to sit next to you. Now grow up or ship out.
Yours,
A disgruntled and astonished airline pilot from UK.
The way yoyu lot go on, I can assure you I would hate to sit next to you. Now grow up or ship out.
Yours,
A disgruntled and astonished airline pilot from UK.