Just a few quickies

[sicky]

i really don't know which sponsorship(s) to apply for as i thought oxford was great but have read that it puts a good front on things.

if i can only afford modular, i'll have to do modular. i just really hope it wouldn't limit my job prospects.

i've been looking for a job at the airport as it is anyways, i applied for a luggage handling job but think i saw the advert too late, i need to know who flies from Newcastle and try and get myself a ground job. i applied for cleaning aircraft last summer but my college was shut so they couldn't get a reference.

i'll have another search about modular but does anybody reccommend a place to do it? i can obv do my ground school at bristol if i want to do distance learning if i go down the modular route.

also, does your first medical have to be at gatwick, if not where is a good place to go?

cheers for all the advice so far its been a huge help

[Charlie Zulu]

You'll probably find that ground jobs are usually via handling agents such as Serviceair. As for Newcastle Airport, I am unsure as to which handling agents are based there.

The initial JAA Class 1 medical must be carried out at the AMC in Crawley (about five minute drive from Gatwick Airport). Call 01293 573700 and choose the Medical option to book your appointment (you'll have to pay for it when you book the appointment).

When it comes to the yearly renewals, these can be carried out at your local AME (Aero Medical Examiner) who is usually a practicing doctor authorised to carry out Class 1 Renewals as well as intial and renewal Class 2 medicals.

The Class 2 medical is not sufficient if you are going commercial, you require the Class 1 medical. Don't expect to be able to pass an initial Class 1 if you obtain a Class 2, there are many more tests that the AMC put you through than the AME does.

[bfato]

How about a local airfield? If you can get free flying in exchange for doing donkey work then it all helps. No need to pay professional training rates until you have to.

Sounds like you've done a lot of background research already. Have you read Clive Hughes' book Guide to Becoming a Professional Pilot? Might give you a few more ideas if you haven't.

Good luck.

[sicky]

believe me...i've spent the last 2 or 3 weeks sat at my PC and on the phone, just looking into this whole thing, aswell as the time i spent before my CTC phase 2 researching it all and all the hours i spent before that. I'll try and get my hands on that book.

the main issue is just raising the money, as it is for most people. i think i'll ring up first thing on monday, and try and book a medical.

it makes sense to try and get a job at the airport doing groundwork, to get contacts aswell as experience at the airport but anything will do to raise some money. especially as there doesnt seem to be a loan deal for the modular courses. however, i had a quick search for serviceair or servisair and there was nothing useful. either there are no jobs right now doing groundwork or they're bloody hard to find! lol

the nearest real airfield to me is newcastle international airport!! there's a microlight airfield a few miles up the road, and then after that i think its RAF Boulmer or teeside/cleveland airports! certainly none of the smaller airfields around here, or i would have definately gone along to see if there were any jobs going.

it might be worth popping into newcastle airport and seeing if i can find a desk where they could give me some more info on groundjobs, such as if there is one "agent" like u said, they may be able to put me in touch.

another thing cropped up in conversation last night - releasing equity in the house!! that sounds as dodgy as remortgaging to be honest. especially as in the 9 years we've lived here the house has more than tripled in value.

it seems like, if i am going to be able to do this, i'm going to have to take the huge risk of getting the loan...somehow...and hoping that i get a job pretty sharpish after completing the training! i always try to go for 100% in exams as it is, but after seeing an application form for an airline where they ask your exam results, i'll definately be going out for 100% in everything and the loan will only spur me on even more than i already am!!

modular is an option, and like it's been said is a damn sight cheaper but it still needs to be funded somehow and i'm under the impression that the loan packages you can get are either only if you are sponsored? or only if you are on integrated?

[sicky]

i'm reading so many good and bad things about doing training here or usa, and all the different schools, its such a huge and complicated decision

[Bandit Man]

me too sicky. im thinking of giving the idea of pilot training up and sticking with engineering. i want to create a happy life for me and my hopefully future fiance, i want to be home as much as possible and have little financial or job worries. im thinking the best thing to do might just to get a regular 9 to five job (engineers earn a lot by the way) hopefully in aircraft design or similar and just learn to fly recreationally. maybe fly my future wife to the south of france for a week etc. learning to fly and maybe not getting a job souns so stressful. is it really worth it?

[sicky]

to be perfectly honest, from what i've looked into it, you're probably as likely landing a "good" engineering job as you are getting the job you want as a pilot.

they're both similar in the way that experience is key.

it's got to the point now where i can't imagine doing engineering anymore and i've got my heart set on being a pilot, as foolish as it may be.

it IS a bigger risk than engineering, especially financially. to be honest i really would have thought there would be a lot more airlines train their own pilots, or at least subsidise the cost, but just do what most do and tie thme down with a long contract. it doesn't seem to happen!

i'm determined not to do what you're thinking, i really don't want to give up. i hate giving up, i'm terrible at exams and at revising and making myself study, but i'm confident i can do it for this as i know a fair few basics and from what i've looked at it seems interesting and MOSTLY relevant ( i know not all is, not at first anyway) on the theory side.

the thing is it's all what if's, but what if you can't find an egineering job? my sisters best friend is just out of leeds uni with a 2:1 in english and is on less than my sister in a secretary job, where my sister works in a wetherspoons as a bar supervisor.

there's no guarantees whichever way you go there's certainly a larger risk down the pilot route, but if you pull it off, it'll certainly pay off big time, well i imagine it will.

it's all about taking risks these days. it just seems to be whether we're willing to take such a big risk, and whether we actually can!

ps a little reading up on the FTE site showed they're agreement with HSBC regarding a loan was secured on the parents' house, and no repayments are needed until 6months after training, or it may have been 18months after the loan date. either way...it's a time period to secure a job to pay the loan off lol.

my summary of what i've read so far is: OAT seem to be a bit snooty and sell it to you, training is good and they seem to have good industry links, but it's so expensive. Others like cabair and FTE offer good training at a cheaper cost but dont have as much of a "reputation" or "links" or they don't seem to "help" you get employed. OAT seem very bothered about their reputation so try to help you get employed from what i've read.

[Bandit Man]

as far as i see it there is no risk with my engineering degree. i mean sure i might not get a great engineering job straight away but i wont have a £60k loan to pay. im definatly gonna secure my masters degree and then maybe do the pilot thing. ive another 2.5 yeaqrs to go til i graduate anyway. Thinking about the whole pilot thing is so stressful. I want it to happen but even if i do get a pilot job im not sure il get the happy family life i want more than anything. My ideal job would be with flybe or bmibaby. i guess i have a long time to think about it anyway.

[scroggs]

Sicky, I see you've now put a post on Mil Aircrew asking about the chances of joining the RAF and then going to the airlines later. Be prepared for some robust replies!

The military - or at least some of those in Mil Aircrew - does not look particularly kindly on people who don't see it as a vocation. They would like their applicants to have lived and breathed military aviation since they were in nappies, and they will not tolerate anyone that suggests that a period in the military is a stepping stone to a future airline career. Fortunately, the recruiters are a little more realistic than that these days, but they still will not appreciate being seen as free training and not much more. After all, if you're going to put your life on the line for your country, you do need to have thought about it in some considerable depth first! You must understand that a career in the RAF, even on a Short Service Commission, is likely to take you to some very lively, and potentially fatal, parts of the world. I have lost a great many of my friends in the RAF, both to enemy action in times of war and the inevitable accidents that happen when you indulge in a high-risk occupation.

It's not an easy way out, believe me.

Scroggs

[boogie-nicey]

Be realistic and look seriously at what you wish to achieve and the resources available to you. It's all too easy for everyone to have the hero complex these days in terms of their own self belief, finances and expectations.

Yes we would all like to be able to walk into a shiney new car showroom and get the car we really desire but are prevented from going a step further than drooling at it through the windows by our circumstances. There's nothing wrong with that it applies to the vast majority of people out there (we're all the same boat).

The issue of modular is somewhat better than it's made out especially by the likes of the major FTOs. This is simply because it's an irritant and burden to them to facilitate such schemes in comparison to their own integrated schemes. Not to say integrated is bad in any way in fact it's fantastic but for most without a BIG financial net it's impractical and highly risky if things don't pan out (though there have always been some exceptions). Modular has a number of options and YES many pilots go this route and get jobs in the end. You can work arounf your training so that you've got decent money coming in and the more you make of your own back the less you have to borrow You also acquire work experience and skills as an alternative to flying (just in case). The modular route is also cheaper as a whole which can't be bad, saving all this money maybe you could step into that car showroom after all

The USA option is great too if you research it and then apply for a student visa with some work experience option i.e. the J-1 visa (I think or some equivalent). That way you can get your licences and ratings, get an instructors position and build some serious hours (can't be bad). Return to the UK get converted and end up with licences from both the US and UK and a whole bunch of hours.

BUT what you shouldn't do is get wrapped into the delusion that if you close your eyes all be okay and you'll just get through it. Whatever you choose do so with your eyes wide open and you'll ALSO see that alot of what you thought couldn't be done can be achieved with some practical planning.

Good luck with the PPL, remember you're only 20 so don't rush it just get the money for that primary step and quietly but studiously get on with the training.

Don't worry we've all been there.
Welcome aboard good to have you with us

[sicky]

Scroggs - just saw your post, and i did expect some people to take it the wrong way. Not to worry though, i know many people who have been in the RAF and stayed, and others who have been on the RAF and left, who never intedned staying their whole lives, but did see as something they'd love to try for a while. I spoke to an RAF careers adviser today, i didn't mention anything about civilian careers as i only really picked up a few brochures but he was very good about all that he said. Thanks for the warning though.

boogie-nicey, what you've just said is really great and a huge help. Last night i had a bit of a reality check, where i've been thinking about all this training and realised it's only 18months long if that. In 18 months time, i'll be 22, i'm not 21 until October.

What advice would people give if i were to say i was thinking about getting a job for the next year or 2, and saving up as much as i could to do my pilot training. Ideally it would be a job at the airport, and if i could raise £10000 - £20000 that would be a great start. Living at home would be a huge help aswell. By the time i start training, i'll be about 23 - still a good age to get into things?

Even if i work and save about £6000, i could do my PPL and it would give me a good stepping stone to take me further.

My plan is to go to the airport tomorrow, and see if i can find an information desk where i can find out how to apply for ground jobs there.

I have read a few things on here putting off the idea of USA training, but its so much cheaper, and as you say, you can convert and hold 2 licences. That would give me the option of working here or in the USA surely? If the conversion is hard, so be it, the training itself isn't so easy anyway so it's all going to be hard work whichever way i do it, a little more won't kill me.

It's good to hear some positive comments on modular, i'd love to be able to do an integrated course, and it's my goal, so let's hope i can save enough to justify a loan for the rest!

Thanks again for some great advice and i'll try andfind more info on the USA training, just out of curiosity now!

[mcgoo]

you don't need to convert if you do JAA training in the US, also it is very unlikely you would get a job in the US unless you have family there.

[sicky]

is that just the way it goes over there?

[mcgoo]

yes it's very difficult for english people to work in the US, if you were irish you would find it easier or marry an american gal.

[sicky]

Now that's confusing!! Marrying an american girl can be done lol, but how is it easier if you're Irish?

[Skintman]

bfato - a bit harsh and cynical against me. I was just passing on my recent experience. I have no axe to grind with OAT or any need to praise them. I have no connection with OAT whatsoever, just the experience of seeing the bills for fATPL and SSTR. This is what it costs and virtually all the class got jet jobs very quickly. I'm not remotely connected to the industry, just helping to fund it !!!!

[scroggs]

Originally Posted by sicky

is that just the way it goes over there?

To obtain airline work in the USA you generally have to have a permanent residence visa (the 'Green Card'). To be eligible for a green card, you either have to:

a) be in a job that there are no suitable US citizens eligible or qualified for.

b) be one of the 10,000 or fewer people who qualify annually by very significant investment in the US economy

c) be a 'Special Immigrant'

d) be lucky in the annual Green Card Lottery (but UK doesn't qualify generally as it has too many successful immigrants annually)

e) be adopted by US citizens

f) marry a US citizen

g) have a parent or sibling who is a US citizen

For more information, see here

Airline work is not given to temporary residents, though flying instructor and similar work may be. It is not easier for the Irish - except in that a greater proportion of Irish nationals have relations who are US citizens.

Scroggs

[sicky]

Thanks again Scroggs, America is a place i've always wanted to go, so may try and do my PPL out there if possible. Doesn't look like i could get a job based out there, not unless Jessica Alba reconsiders

[sicky]

Is it possible to study the theory, maybe as distance learning, all at once, first thing, and then just do all the flying together, or is there a structured route which should be followed? For example, i've never flown, but could i do my theory, then start from a PPL once my theory is complete? I imagine there will be PPL theory, then the CPL groundschool once i start that training, but it's worth an ask.

Also, i'm a little uncertain on this - if i do my PPL abroad, is a PPL the same everywhere, or would it need to be converted if, say, i did it in the USA?

On an integrated course, is the groundschool taught in classrooms, or is it just like distance learning except there are peope nearby anytime you need help?

[mcgoo]

As I said in an earlier post, if you do a JAA PPL in the US you won't need to convert. I believe some integrated courses do all the groundschool first but if you are doing the modular route you must hold a PPL before you can do the ATPL exams.