Just a few quickies

[sicky]

hey - this is my first post on here, i've been having a good look around at recent threads over the past couple of days though

I was at the ctc assessment on the 3rd march, realise a few people off here were there aswell, don't know if i spoke to them or not though!

i didn't get through that, but have been invited to reapply in 6months time as i came close,which i wasn't TOO dissapointed with considering i didnt know what to expect and have never flown anything before, i feel like i did quite well. i got top 30% on the first part and middle 40% on the second, i don't know how those compare!!

anyway, i'm really thinking about finishing uni as i don't enjoy it and just going for my fatpl.

Do airlines really take notice of who you trained with? i'm really tempted to apply for nother sponsorship scheme but i know how competitive they are, that i might just decide to go down the self sponsored route with a loan.

however whne i rang hsbc for more info on their loan, the guy on the phone knew nothing about any £60k loans. so i was wondering if you had to be accepted on a course before you got access to this?

i don't know which school or which type of course to go for, iv had a long look at oxford but the cost of living down there is high. i saw what im sure was an integrated course at cleveland airport for £37k, but have no idea what the standard is like there

i'm at leeds uni though, and i could stay in the house there and train at one of the leeds schools (but lets not start that debate in here! lol)

does anybody have any info on the likelihood of getting a job at the end of training these days? my biggest worry is going into all this debt and not being able to get a job with a salary where i can pay it off!

also, last 2 q's for now...firstly on a £60k loan how much can i expect to pay back all togeether and over how long?

and with the groundschool exams. is it possible to study for one, and take the exam, or do u have to study for the 7 then sit all 7 together? ie are there only certain exam times available or are they sat monthly etc?

i'd find it much easier to study a subject then sit the exam in that subject, rather than have to cram revision for 7 subjects at a time!!

cheers for reading my mini essay will probs be seeing more of me around here in the future lol

[Charlie Zulu]

I'll reply in terms of the theoretical knowledge requirements. This is assuming you are in the United Kingdom and you'll be gaining a UK CAA issued JAA CPL/IR with ATPL Theoretical knowledge (usually shown as a "frozen ATPL" here in PPRUNE land).

One has to sit and pass all fourteen exams with a pass mark of 75% in each exam. There is no negative marking (unlike years ago).

The exams are arranged so all fourteen are available every month, starting on the first Monday of every month and running over the course of four days.

So you could in theory study for all fourteen and sit all fourteen in the same week. Although I would be pretty impressed if you were able to pass them all doing it this way.

However you cannot study and sit each exam inidividually.

This is because you are only allowed six sittings to pass all fourteen exams. A sitting is anytime you sit one or more exam in an examination week. So if you took all fourteen in the same week it would count as one sitting and if you took just one exam it would count as one sitting. You'd have five left...

In addition to this requirement you are also only allowed four attempts at any individual exam.

If you fail to meet any of these requirements, it'll be a case of starting the exams all over again.

In regards to the loan... a loan of £60,000 will require huge repayments every month. To illustrate the example I give here I took a look at a popular loan company that advertises on TV (I'm just using them as an example) and a loan of £60,000 over a 10 year period would require monthly repayments of £717.60 with an APR of 7.9%. This means you'd be paying £717.60 each month for ten years which equates to £86,112. Now take into account if you are instructing PPL level before gaining an airline career you'd be lucky to have that amount of money to play with in total each month, never mind actually paying the loan. Even the lower end of the pay scale in the airlines won't see enough for a mortgage and loan repayments, never mind running a car or eating.

[scroggs]

Archive Reference Threads - READ BEFORE YOU POST A QUESTION

Scroggs

[sicky]

sorry! missed that thread, i did do a quick search but didn't find anything to answer my q's about the exams/loans

charlie - thanks for the advice. £700/month is beyond belief! it would probably make sense to get a mortgage for the whole lot if you could!

[Whirlygig]

"Mortgage" does imply that you have property on which the loan is secured! I don't expect at age 20, you have!

A £60,000 mortage raised, say, on your parents' home (in their name and with their permission) would cost about £400 per month over 25 years!

Cheers

Whirls

[sicky]

it seems like i can only find out the full details of any loans once i'm accepted on a course, it would be interesting to see if my mum could remortgage. the problem being, that i wouldn't be able to pay back the mortgage until i had a job, and it's at least 2years down the line, probably more judging on what i've been reading!!

Is it true that the first medical HAS to be at gatwick? and about £400??

i want to get my medical asap, so that it's out the way, and i know i'm fit to fly!

i've read so much, i really don't know where to start. i don't know the best way to raise the funds now, and i don't know whether to keep applying to sponsorship courses, as if i do and don't get thme its a few hundred wasted, but then if i get one, it makes the whole financial outlook a lot brighter

i was reading the threads on scrogg's link, and i'm at uni, like i said doing engineering, and i really don't like it. i don't know what it is, i just don't enjoy it. everybody seems to say do the degree, but to be honest, it's another £15k of debt to pay off at the end of 3years on top of any loans i would be taking out to cover my pilot training.

i know it's a risk but i suppose you have to take risks these days.. it's looking more and more like i'll be going for self-sponsored, mainly due to the costs of simply applying for a sponsored route. (my parents are both separated and my mum's school may be closing this summer, which would mean redundancy for her with no pension or pay-off apparently). and with me being at uni, i have no real source of finance to apy for the tests and travel to these places.

does anybody know if the loans can be used to cover living costs and accommodation aswell as the course costs?

i'm just popping off for dinner then i'll finish reading the "is it all worth it?" thread, it seems to hit the nail on the head for me too

[scroggs]

If your mother remortgages her home to pay for your training, and relies on you to pay it back, could you stand back and watch her lose her home if you can't find the money? That's the risk you are taking by going this route. I would not risk my home for my child's ambition, and I would strongly advise anyone else against doing so.

Scroggs

[Skintman]

Skintman

I have experience of helping to pay for my offspring to become a commercial pilot. This is s big committment for anyone to make and no one should risk their mortgage or anyone elses' mortgage on a dream. That being said, not many jobs are actually "a dream" like flying. Would we do it again - yes no question. If your good enough, get the money from parents, bank etc.

£60,000 fees for OAT
£20,000 spends, accommodation, medicals etc, etc
£20,000 SSTR inc accomadation

Yes he's paying us back and got a job on a big jet straight away, as most of his class did. Look at the OAT figures. OAT were very, very good at getting their graduates interviews and could not be faulted.

Salaries are still pretty good for new recruits and the we consider the costs as an investment.

Skintman

[bfato]

Interesting first post, Skintman. Someone more cynical might wonder if you're actually in North West Kidlington. But OAT would never misuse pprune like that, would they?

[sicky]

so you need to find £100k really?

remortgaging isn't an option afterdiscussing it with my mum.

a problem i have is in applying for sponsorship, it costs, and that money is wasted if i don't get it, which it's more likely i won't, than i will, being realistic. i could save the money and put it towards the training.

i am really wondering how realistic it is to be able to borrow or raise £100k. i wouldn't say it looks good at all to be honest.

i've read good and bad things about OAT on here, i really would not know which school to go to at all.

[bfato]

Sorry Sicky, you won't be able to borrow £10k let alone £100k without giving the lender security, something he can sell if (when) you fail to pay him back. Your mother is being very sensible in not putting her home on the line for you. You have to question the morals of a child that would let their parents do that for them, or the sensibilities of a parent that would agree to it.

Sponsorship or the RAF might be options. Try the GAPAN aptitude test perhaps. The application fees are far less than the cost of an integrated course. Or maybe study hard, work hard in a normal job, save hard and do modular stages as and when funds allow. Wish I could be more positive but that's the reality of professional flight training. If it were cheap and easy everyone would be a pilot!

[sicky]

remortgaging just came up in conversation really, it wasn't anything we considered seriousley.

how do most people fund it? can you only get the loans that the schools mention if you're on a sponsored course?

what exactly does the gapan test give me? i'll have a look on the site now if i can find it but how is it different to applying to a flying school?

[boogie-nicey]

Whatever you eventually choose to do, do so carefully as the figures here are indeed large. If anything take a year or 2 out and get some extra bucks in your wallet allowing you to take out a smaller loan if you have to). After all you're only 20 I'm sure you can use time to your advantage otherwise a wrong or badly timed decision at this point and you may never quite get 'ahead of the curve' for a long time.

Best of luck hope it all works out well

[sicky]

thanks

i know for sure this is what i want to do now, i just need to work out how i'm going to go about it, that's "all" lol. even trying to do my PPL this summer...i don't think i could raise the money for it without selling my car AND getting a job instantly

[bfato]

Good to hear the remortgage wasn't a serious consideration

People fund it by either borrowing heavily, with the debt problems we've discussed waiting to bite them on the arse a couple of years down the line, or by working until they've made enough money. The latter is the reason there are so many of us late 30-something wannabies on the forum.

The advantage of a GAPAN assesment is they're an indepenent, non-profit making organistion. They've nothing to gain by telling you that you're better than you actually are. The school aptitude tests are a little different. You go to them saying "I'd like to come give you £60k, do you think I'm good enough?"...

[sicky]

well i think my next step is to get my medical, that's probably the most sensible thing to do. i see why some people might do the gapan test, but without it getting me into a school its £175...theres pros and cons to it lol.

is it really that bad getting the loan? i mean...the way i live my life, if the loan is £720 a month, and most f/o go in at £30k a year, thats still about £2k a month. the way i live my life i could manage on £1k a month after my loan payment had gone out. looking at it that way might be naive and i may be missing some vital points, so please correct me if you need to.

can you only get these pilot loans on sponsored courses?

if not, do you need to be accepted on a course first?

[Grass strip basher]

£1000 a month doesn't go very far unless you want to live with your parents for the next 5 years.... rent and running a car will eat through a large slug of that...

[bfato]

Can't advise on how to get a loan since didn't consider it.

Keep in mind that loan repayments fall due whether or not you get a job. And getting an fATPL does not automatically get you a job. So you spend another £7k for an instructor's rating whilst you job hunt, and perhaps you find work PPL training. Earning maybe £10 per flight hour, call it £150 a week on average. It might just pay for food and petrol to the airfield, but what about your rent? How will you make those loan repayments then?

[sicky]

this is all starting to look very...very bad :|

having to raise enough for a PPL is going to be hard enough, and integrated seems the thing to do.

i thought the HSBC loan didn't start repayments until you had a job? i'm pretty sure i read that somewhere. i may have to find somewhere that does it cheaper then, or just keep applying for a sponsorship and give it my best shot. i really don't want to have to wait however many years it's going to take to save up that amount

[bfato]

How about giving modular another thought? You can do the PPL when you can afford it, maybe hour build on the cheap in exchange for washing aeroplanes, answering phones, hoovering the floor. Not glamorous but it'll get you closer to your goal. Where there's a will there's a way and all that..

You'd still need to save £20k to fund the CPL/IR and MCC but that's a lot less than £60k. And an awful lot less than £100k.

edit - but if I were your age I'd keep doing everything I could to get sponsorship too.