Multi Crew Pilot Licence (MCL)
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Bristol, UK
Multi Crew Pilot Licence (MCL)
Picked up a copy of Flyer today and spotted at article about the 'proposed' ICAO Co-Pilot licence. is this something a new wannabe needs to be concerned about? The author seemed to believe that it might be in force by 2005, which may have implications for my training.
Apparently under the new proposals only 50 hours would be actual flying, the rest being done in the sim, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
Laters dudes
Apparently under the new proposals only 50 hours would be actual flying, the rest being done in the sim, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
Laters dudes
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
Joined: Nov 1997
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From: Scotland usually, and often other parts of Europe
I remember reading something about this a while ago. I think at the time it was being proposed as a "zero flight time" licence. Airlines would be the primary source of this training for their own cadet students and all training would be based on Level D (?) simulators.
Effectively it would produce a type rated first officer with a type specific IR who would not need to go through the current system of Single Engine Piston/Multi Engine Piston training. I was under the impression that the plan had been shelved.
If is the case that it will be available by 2005, time for someone to pass me the revolver....
Effectively it would produce a type rated first officer with a type specific IR who would not need to go through the current system of Single Engine Piston/Multi Engine Piston training. I was under the impression that the plan had been shelved.
If is the case that it will be available by 2005, time for someone to pass me the revolver....
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Belgium
Seems ideal for airlines... MCC training emphasised, so less of that for airlines to pay for.
I just wonder whether the finished product will have any other options whilst waiting for the airline position the training has prepared him/her for - i.e. will this licence produce a pilot capable of air taxi, banner towing, parachutist dropping, aerial work, etc to the same level that the traditional CPL/IR/ATPL system does?
Without details - perhaps I shouldn´t comment untill there are more details... - it appears that this system is another way of airlines having a heap of ready and waiting potential pilots unable to be employed as anything else. Captive markets allowing companies to dictate job terms more? I´m sure it´s not all so doom and gloom though. Has anyone more details?
I just wonder whether the finished product will have any other options whilst waiting for the airline position the training has prepared him/her for - i.e. will this licence produce a pilot capable of air taxi, banner towing, parachutist dropping, aerial work, etc to the same level that the traditional CPL/IR/ATPL system does?
Without details - perhaps I shouldn´t comment untill there are more details... - it appears that this system is another way of airlines having a heap of ready and waiting potential pilots unable to be employed as anything else. Captive markets allowing companies to dictate job terms more? I´m sure it´s not all so doom and gloom though. Has anyone more details?
Jet Blast Rat
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Sarfend-on-Sea
More importantly, when the **** hits the fan, would they be able to actualy fly the damned aeroplane with skill? Remember Gimli (no, not the dwark in the Lord of the Rings, the forced landing site of a Boeing glider).
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: sector 001
"Co pilot licence"
There was a proposal a year or so ago, about this new style of course. A small amount of flying to PPL standard followed by state of the art simulator, with then specific type rating course - Airbus? - straight into the right hand seat, but not qualified for SP commerical operarations.
Cheaper option than the present JAR licence course.
Did this ever get of the ground [no pun intended] and if so which JAR/EU FTOs are offering it??
Cheaper option than the present JAR licence course.
Did this ever get of the ground [no pun intended] and if so which JAR/EU FTOs are offering it??
Joined: Jan 2000
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From: UK
MPL - 2007
from
http://www.swiss-aviation-training.c...newsletter.htm
The new Multi-crew Pilot's License (MPL) - what’s it all about?
Gallus Bammert is a ground instructor for Swiss AviationTraining Ltd. in Zurich, and is a qualified representative of both JAA and ICAO. In the following question-and-answer session, Bammert explains what the new Multi-crew Pilot’s License (MPL) is, the reasoning behind it, and comments on its effect.
What exactly is meant by Multi-crew Pilot’s License?
The MPL will be a new pilot’s licence that will be issued to ab-initio students after completion of a pilot training course in a multi-crew cockpit. According to the ICAO, it will be possible to train pilots for an MPL from the year 2007.
Where are the provisions for the MPL training defined?
As with other pilot’s licences, the MPL requirements are listed in a document called “Personnel Licensing” which is published by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), whose membership includes every country on earth except the Vatican.
What prompted the ICAO to develop the MPL training?
In today’s courses a lot of time is devoted to pilot-in-command training in a single-pilot cockpit, for which the demand is small, and getting smaller. Since most students are planning anyway to work in a multi-crew cockpit, the MPL will offer them direct access to this kind of work.
Will current training be replaced or limited by the MPL?
No. But there might well be some changes in 2007, regardless of the MPL, because all licence requirements and authorizations will also be revised. Current regulations date all the way back to1948, and fundamental changes have taken place in aviation since then.
If the holder of an MPL is trained exclusively for multi-crew cockpits, does this mean that he or she will not be allowed to work in a single-pilot cockpit?
No, but further training will be required in order to qualify for other licences.
Does the MPL replace another licence?
No. It is a completely new kind of training, and a licence in its own right.
What are the advantages of the MPL?
The decisive advantage is the fact that MPL students are better prepared for their real-life tasks. Another advantage is that the MPL pilot-to-be will have all the qualifications – Licence and Type Rating – needed to be a co-pilot. And incidentally, because they spend more hours on the simulator than in the aircraft, students waste less time waiting for aircraft availability.
Are there any disadvantages of the MPL?
Not really, though at first glance, the implied confinement to a multi-crew cockpit seems like a restriction. But it is really more of a specialization – one that more accurately reflects the reality of today’s and tomorrow’s commercial aviation world.
http://www.swiss-aviation-training.c...newsletter.htm
The new Multi-crew Pilot's License (MPL) - what’s it all about?
Gallus Bammert is a ground instructor for Swiss AviationTraining Ltd. in Zurich, and is a qualified representative of both JAA and ICAO. In the following question-and-answer session, Bammert explains what the new Multi-crew Pilot’s License (MPL) is, the reasoning behind it, and comments on its effect.
What exactly is meant by Multi-crew Pilot’s License?
The MPL will be a new pilot’s licence that will be issued to ab-initio students after completion of a pilot training course in a multi-crew cockpit. According to the ICAO, it will be possible to train pilots for an MPL from the year 2007.
Where are the provisions for the MPL training defined?
As with other pilot’s licences, the MPL requirements are listed in a document called “Personnel Licensing” which is published by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), whose membership includes every country on earth except the Vatican.
What prompted the ICAO to develop the MPL training?
In today’s courses a lot of time is devoted to pilot-in-command training in a single-pilot cockpit, for which the demand is small, and getting smaller. Since most students are planning anyway to work in a multi-crew cockpit, the MPL will offer them direct access to this kind of work.
Will current training be replaced or limited by the MPL?
No. But there might well be some changes in 2007, regardless of the MPL, because all licence requirements and authorizations will also be revised. Current regulations date all the way back to1948, and fundamental changes have taken place in aviation since then.
If the holder of an MPL is trained exclusively for multi-crew cockpits, does this mean that he or she will not be allowed to work in a single-pilot cockpit?
No, but further training will be required in order to qualify for other licences.
Does the MPL replace another licence?
No. It is a completely new kind of training, and a licence in its own right.
What are the advantages of the MPL?
The decisive advantage is the fact that MPL students are better prepared for their real-life tasks. Another advantage is that the MPL pilot-to-be will have all the qualifications – Licence and Type Rating – needed to be a co-pilot. And incidentally, because they spend more hours on the simulator than in the aircraft, students waste less time waiting for aircraft availability.
Are there any disadvantages of the MPL?
Not really, though at first glance, the implied confinement to a multi-crew cockpit seems like a restriction. But it is really more of a specialization – one that more accurately reflects the reality of today’s and tomorrow’s commercial aviation world.
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
A couple of points for those who think that this ludicrous machine-minder's ticket will be an universal panacea:
1. It will be expensive to the individual as many airlines won't be interested in paying for training. Just as they aren't today.
2. The French are totally opposed to it. One of the few things (such as TGV, the Millau bridge, wine etc) to admire them for. Will they permit a 2-person aircraft to operate over their territory knowing that one pilot might only hold this Microsoft pilot's licence?
3. The FAA don't see any place for it.
4. You wouldn't even be able to take your friends flying in a Cessna 150 on a sunny afternoon without extra training.
1. It will be expensive to the individual as many airlines won't be interested in paying for training. Just as they aren't today.
2. The French are totally opposed to it. One of the few things (such as TGV, the Millau bridge, wine etc) to admire them for. Will they permit a 2-person aircraft to operate over their territory knowing that one pilot might only hold this Microsoft pilot's licence?
3. The FAA don't see any place for it.
4. You wouldn't even be able to take your friends flying in a Cessna 150 on a sunny afternoon without extra training.
de minimus non curat lex
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,510
Likes: 7
From: sunny troon
Co pilots licence
It will only get going if the beancounters think it is a good idea. They are driven purely by HOW MUCH WILL IT "COST".
IS IT CHEAPER THAN WHAT WE HAVE TO DO NOW?
They often know the price of everything, and the value of nothing.
Their blinkered mentality asks usually but one question: can this achieve MP licence issue cheaper. Answer, probably yes.
What they will fail to understand initially is the increase in the failure to pass line training. "Cost" this increase in the chop rate, against undertaking quality [tried and tested] which may be more expensive at the outset. It is worth its weight in gold.
The "Q" word does not feature on their balance sheet - that is the problem.
IS IT CHEAPER THAN WHAT WE HAVE TO DO NOW?
They often know the price of everything, and the value of nothing.
Their blinkered mentality asks usually but one question: can this achieve MP licence issue cheaper. Answer, probably yes.
What they will fail to understand initially is the increase in the failure to pass line training. "Cost" this increase in the chop rate, against undertaking quality [tried and tested] which may be more expensive at the outset. It is worth its weight in gold.
The "Q" word does not feature on their balance sheet - that is the problem.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 31
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From: A supermarket near you
I feel sorry for the ad-initio student being talked into signing up for this by a smooth sounding sales person.
The acidic test is simply how many airlines will be prepared to fund these courses. An expensive experiment in proving a concept, as yet untested.
Think of it like a new drug [not the life or death type] without the clinical trials to prove it will work.
Do you want to be part of an experiment, when there are prefectly sound options already available. I think not.
The acidic test is simply how many airlines will be prepared to fund these courses. An expensive experiment in proving a concept, as yet untested.
Think of it like a new drug [not the life or death type] without the clinical trials to prove it will work.
Do you want to be part of an experiment, when there are prefectly sound options already available. I think not.
Last edited by Buy one get one free; 29th November 2005 at 06:30.
Joined: Oct 1998
Posts: 44
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From: UK
MPL
For the actual facts, check out the EATS web site which has the presentations given to the training industry in Amsterdam on Nov 7/8.
http://www.halldalemedia.co.uk/eats2005/proceedings.htm
Whatever you may think of it, the MPL WILL come and is already being supported by a number of major airlines worldwide.
http://www.halldalemedia.co.uk/eats2005/proceedings.htm
Whatever you may think of it, the MPL WILL come and is already being supported by a number of major airlines worldwide.
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 955
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From: UK
2006
Its 2006.....
JAA is making all efforts to facilitate it, by creating a regulatory framework in JAR-FCL
Change to General Requirements, Instrument Rating, ATPL(A), Instructors, Examiners and Theoretical Knowledge Requirements
Introduction of new Subpart K – Multi-Crew Pilot Licence
Looks like LASORS will get some (more) updating..... At least pilots will leave training after MPL with a qualification that they can use and not have to fork out more on Sims as is required with the current light aicraft based fATPL.....
JAA is making all efforts to facilitate it, by creating a regulatory framework in JAR-FCL
Change to General Requirements, Instrument Rating, ATPL(A), Instructors, Examiners and Theoretical Knowledge Requirements
Introduction of new Subpart K – Multi-Crew Pilot Licence
Looks like LASORS will get some (more) updating..... At least pilots will leave training after MPL with a qualification that they can use and not have to fork out more on Sims as is required with the current light aicraft based fATPL.....
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 2,033
Likes: 14
From: London, UK
The big gamble with this licence is in deciding which type-rating to include. 737, A320, 767???
It is certaig airlines that have been pushing for this licence, particularly Lufthansa as they have lots of sims they can put students through. Smaller airlines are definitely not in favour as they see nobody wanting to do such a course and including something like a Dash 8 or ATR rating. However looks like the big boys are winning.
It is certaig airlines that have been pushing for this licence, particularly Lufthansa as they have lots of sims they can put students through. Smaller airlines are definitely not in favour as they see nobody wanting to do such a course and including something like a Dash 8 or ATR rating. However looks like the big boys are winning.
de minimus non curat lex
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,510
Likes: 7
From: sunny troon
There is little doubt that the simulators can teach students the upper air work to a high standard.
The interesting part will be how they will cope in the big bad world with landing the real thing, and being sufficiently consistent in even benign conditions.
Are the visuals really that good ??
ps. Flying the aeroplane is one thing, but just how is exposure to the real world of air traffic control going to be taught.
The interesting part will be how they will cope in the big bad world with landing the real thing, and being sufficiently consistent in even benign conditions.
Are the visuals really that good ??
ps. Flying the aeroplane is one thing, but just how is exposure to the real world of air traffic control going to be taught.
Jet Blast Rat
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,081
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From: Sarfend-on-Sea
RVR800
Are you the fount of all knowledge, to say that there are no disadvantages? You completely fail to address those already stated on this thread. I would certainly not like to be a passenger if my pilots never had a solid grounding in actually flying an aeroplane.
As BEagle points out this is not universally popular - it is not just people here who disagree.
Are you the fount of all knowledge, to say that there are no disadvantages? You completely fail to address those already stated on this thread. I would certainly not like to be a passenger if my pilots never had a solid grounding in actually flying an aeroplane.
As BEagle points out this is not universally popular - it is not just people here who disagree.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
Likes: 5
From: Wor Yerm
I'd suggest that the aircraft the new boy (or girl) actually flies has little to do with the thing that he (or she) initially learnt to fly, unless it was very similar. To suggest that various skills learnt in a bug smasher are relevant are fantasy. Maybe more relevant in our lives is the ability to write neatly in small boxes. However, given an appropriate course, I can't see a reason as to why a zero houred person can't learn to fly an airliner from scratch. And when the brown stuff hits the rotating circular device designed for accelerating and projecting a mass of air in a certain direction would they be less well equipped to cope? I think not.
Joined: Oct 1998
Posts: 44
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From: UK
Competency based,multi-crew,CRM,TEM
The MPL is a radically different concept of ab-initio training and just as with any new concept, it will take time to be acknowledged as an acceptable standard of training throughout the industry. But this concept, a demand from the airline sector, was originally defined by a panel from 16 ICAO countries (including France) as well as IAOPA, IATA and IFALPA, and not from FTOs who want to make a fast buck. It is designed for the airline sponsored candidate – not the self-sponsored student. The syllabus will be defined by the FTOs but the competency training level must be equivalent to a CPL/IR with type rating, with much of the emphasis on CRM and TEM, and programs geared to individual airline operations. Like it or not, in 2 years time there may well be F/Os flying with the MPL but for those who doubt it’s validity, the first course from each FTO will be provisional and ICAO will be running proof-of-concept and risk/safety benefit programs. The proof of the pudding……..
Jet Blast Rat
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,081
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From: Sarfend-on-Sea
Piltdown Man
But do you know? Are you willing to risk your life on that unproven hypothesis? On a person who has basically never been the captain of an aircraft? Integrated courses are bad enough, with the lack of true responsibility given to the pilot, but how much time would the graduate of an MPL pilot spend in command before taking command of a multi-engine jet? Or before taking over when the Captain is incapacitated due to illness?
No-one has tested this; it seems to be a response only to the demnds of the industry, not to the setting up of a course to teach real pilots.
Finally Gimli? Any answer?
But do you know? Are you willing to risk your life on that unproven hypothesis? On a person who has basically never been the captain of an aircraft? Integrated courses are bad enough, with the lack of true responsibility given to the pilot, but how much time would the graduate of an MPL pilot spend in command before taking command of a multi-engine jet? Or before taking over when the Captain is incapacitated due to illness?
No-one has tested this; it seems to be a response only to the demnds of the industry, not to the setting up of a course to teach real pilots.
Finally Gimli? Any answer?
Joined: Oct 1998
Posts: 44
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From: UK
Send Clowns
Not quite sure if I follow your argument here but the MPL is a co-pilot licence which includes a type rating and one assumes that if he passes this, he can fly the aircraft with the captain incapacitated.
It's the airlines who set the standards for pilots - it's the airlines who have initiated this licence and it's the airlines who will determine if this concept of training produces "real pilots".
but how much time would the graduate of an MPL pilot spend in command before taking command of a multi-engine jet
No-one has tested this; it seems to be a response only to the demnds of the industry, not to the setting up of a course to teach real pilots.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,524
Likes: 1
From: United Kingdom
At least pilots will leave training after MPL with a qualification that they can use and not have to fork out more on Sims as is required with the current light aicraft based fATPL
I hear that the MPL courses must be 'sponsored' by an airline so it may be that the 'self-sponsored' option will not exist.