BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
Hello All
To clear a few points up.
I have through hard work managed to pay back all my loans, with such large amounts of money involved this is something I am very very proud of.
Having a friend who sadly for him, found himself going down the route of bankruptcy, has helped me make a few suggestions for LBB and others. Thus, hopefully reducing the amount of illness caused by stress. Remember that being forewarned is to be forearmed. Thus the reason i took the time and trouble to respond to LBB.
Preston Watson, all I can say is that you have displayed a true lack of knowledge of this thread. You’re cynical, ill informed, contradictory comments combined with an inability to read properly, does you no favours at all. Cheap comments are never going to help anyone. Your other comments where merely a reiteration of advice I had already given,( I’m flattered).
Not to be as vauge as PW.
Bankruptcy is in fact the granting of an Order from the bankruptcy court following the presentation of a Bankruptcy Petition to the Court to obtain protection from collection efforts of your creditors. The court fee is to be paid in cash only, wise people.
When you cannot pay your creditors this is called, going into further debt.
So by this logic if you have no assets, you are therefore discharged? You believe it is a discharge?
Fact. Bankruptcy is there to protect you and help you settle your debts the best way for both parties. Providing you have not been made bankrupt before, your bankruptcy will end (you will be ‘discharged’) after about 12 months, after which you will be free from debt and no further action can be brought by your creditors, although you may still have to make payments from your income for a further 3 years. There are certain exceptions to this, for example you may still owe any unpaid court fines and student loans. The trustee will still be able to take action to sell your house etc. (assets) if equity rises significantly, and the trustee will retain this right indefinitely.
The bankruptcy will remain on record at the Land Registry and with credit reference agencies, although you will no longer be declared bankrupt
Seriatim is latin for one after another.
So where PW conjured up this magical figure then, I dont know. But as i mentioned before lenders will have a rate which you will find to be a lot higher from the deals on offer to most. With good reason too.
For LBB and others I hope that you will see that at the end of the day, bankruptcy is best avioded, head off towards the CAB and deal with this sooner rather than later. For wannabes out there think carefully please, and have a plan B just in case you dont manage to walk stright into the right seat.
http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index.htm
If I missed this from the previous post, then the best of british to you all and I wish you well for 2006 .
Mr W
To clear a few points up.
I have through hard work managed to pay back all my loans, with such large amounts of money involved this is something I am very very proud of.
Having a friend who sadly for him, found himself going down the route of bankruptcy, has helped me make a few suggestions for LBB and others. Thus, hopefully reducing the amount of illness caused by stress. Remember that being forewarned is to be forearmed. Thus the reason i took the time and trouble to respond to LBB.
Preston Watson, all I can say is that you have displayed a true lack of knowledge of this thread. You’re cynical, ill informed, contradictory comments combined with an inability to read properly, does you no favours at all. Cheap comments are never going to help anyone. Your other comments where merely a reiteration of advice I had already given,( I’m flattered).
Bankruptcy is the term given when you cannot afford to pay your creditors, and they take you to court to claim back assets you may have
Bankruptcy is in fact the granting of an Order from the bankruptcy court following the presentation of a Bankruptcy Petition to the Court to obtain protection from collection efforts of your creditors. The court fee is to be paid in cash only, wise people.
When you cannot pay your creditors this is called, going into further debt.
If the Bank place a 'seriatim' on you and want the whole lot back then take you to court and you can't pay then you go through the process of bankruptcy if you have assets, otherwise I believe it is a discharge.
Fact. Bankruptcy is there to protect you and help you settle your debts the best way for both parties. Providing you have not been made bankrupt before, your bankruptcy will end (you will be ‘discharged’) after about 12 months, after which you will be free from debt and no further action can be brought by your creditors, although you may still have to make payments from your income for a further 3 years. There are certain exceptions to this, for example you may still owe any unpaid court fines and student loans. The trustee will still be able to take action to sell your house etc. (assets) if equity rises significantly, and the trustee will retain this right indefinitely.
The bankruptcy will remain on record at the Land Registry and with credit reference agencies, although you will no longer be declared bankrupt
Seriatim is latin for one after another.
I've heard that mortgages are still available at maybe 1% extra, and you can still get credit after having been in this situation
For LBB and others I hope that you will see that at the end of the day, bankruptcy is best avioded, head off towards the CAB and deal with this sooner rather than later. For wannabes out there think carefully please, and have a plan B just in case you dont manage to walk stright into the right seat.
http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index.htm
If I missed this from the previous post, then the best of british to you all and I wish you well for 2006 .
Mr W
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Re: BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
"if more people file bankruptcy, maybe one day we will see companies paying their pilots instead to be paid."
Yeah ! Right ! .. . .
Exactly which world are you living in ?
Yeah ! Right ! .. . .
Exactly which world are you living in ?
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Hi,
No moaning but just my two pence worth....
It is true that nobody owes you a flying job, etc....We have heard that one too often....but why let people go through the expense of training to a high standard if you are not going to use them? Poor way to manage people's talents and resources!
The thing is, flying schools, regulated by the CAA, are well happy to advertise and promise you wonders, jobs in shiny jets, but once you are qualified, nothing happens. No organisation to help you find a job, etc.... You are on your own! One must not forget that these flying schools are businesses, all they are interested in is your money, so that they can survive.
If you look at teachers for example, once you qualify, at least, you can get supply work no bother, which helps you pay the bills and your student loan. In some parts of the UK, you even have a job guaranteed for a year!!! However, it has to be said that the government regulates the number of people who train every year and there is not an excess of newly qualified teachers so that you are always going to find work. In what industry or sector do you see people unemployed after they have graduated? and for that amount of time?
So the advice is..... unless you have the money or you are sure you are going to get a job at the end of it (the 1 billion dollar question), do not borrow this huge sum you need for a F ATPL ! If you do not have the money, do not do it! I know that most of us need to borrow and that flying would then only be open to rich people, but at the end of the day, you have NO guarantees to get a job at the end, above all with 250 hours. Is it worth investing 30-60K for a job you might never get? Don't bother!
No moaning but just my two pence worth....
It is true that nobody owes you a flying job, etc....We have heard that one too often....but why let people go through the expense of training to a high standard if you are not going to use them? Poor way to manage people's talents and resources!
The thing is, flying schools, regulated by the CAA, are well happy to advertise and promise you wonders, jobs in shiny jets, but once you are qualified, nothing happens. No organisation to help you find a job, etc.... You are on your own! One must not forget that these flying schools are businesses, all they are interested in is your money, so that they can survive.
If you look at teachers for example, once you qualify, at least, you can get supply work no bother, which helps you pay the bills and your student loan. In some parts of the UK, you even have a job guaranteed for a year!!! However, it has to be said that the government regulates the number of people who train every year and there is not an excess of newly qualified teachers so that you are always going to find work. In what industry or sector do you see people unemployed after they have graduated? and for that amount of time?
So the advice is..... unless you have the money or you are sure you are going to get a job at the end of it (the 1 billion dollar question), do not borrow this huge sum you need for a F ATPL ! If you do not have the money, do not do it! I know that most of us need to borrow and that flying would then only be open to rich people, but at the end of the day, you have NO guarantees to get a job at the end, above all with 250 hours. Is it worth investing 30-60K for a job you might never get? Don't bother!
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Or you might argue that you only live once, so if it's your dream then go for it. Personally I'd regret never knowing if I could've made it more than trying and failing. Better to have loved and lost...
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Originally Posted by Strepsils
If you can avoid it at all, avoid it!
If you declare bankrupt then you will have a huge dirty mark on what is left of your credit rating for around 5 years. Should you be offered a flying job in that time, how will you meet the bond? You won't get a loan from a bank, therefore possibly no job. Viscious circle.
If you declare bankrupt then you will have a huge dirty mark on what is left of your credit rating for around 5 years. Should you be offered a flying job in that time, how will you meet the bond? You won't get a loan from a bank, therefore possibly no job. Viscious circle.
And the industry leads by example how many major airlines do we hear gone bangers over the years - pilot's with bankruptcy is just a microcosm of what IS going on everyday of every hour of every minute of the day within the greatest occupation on the planet!
People who have been in serious debt is no joke of course but ultimatley do whatever the hell you have to do to get out of the crap but if the last resort is to go insolvent, do it ; don't do it again and move one with your life
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Saw on the news last night a profile of a student who went bankrupt with loans of £22K. She will have poor credit rating for 6 years so no loans, credit cards or mortgages during that period...
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Fall back on previous career
I'm sorry to hear of your plight but my suggestion is to seek out highly paid work either going back to a previous career or train in something new and in demand. I have had to fall back into IT where I worked for over 10 years. If you don't have a skill like that I would suggest you get into driving buses, HGV's, trains or learn a trade. The other day while driving to work I saw an ad on the back of a bus offering training to be a bus driver - starting salary is £25000 if memory serves which is more than many airlines are paying us. I suspect all the training would be paid for and provided and at the end of the day too.
IN many ways I think there are probably many parallels between airline pilots and bus drivers, it's just the money's better for bus drivers!
Desk-pilot
IN many ways I think there are probably many parallels between airline pilots and bus drivers, it's just the money's better for bus drivers!
Desk-pilot
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Bankruptcy how would it effect the future?
Hi all
I have done a search for information but the only thread i could find has been closed for 12 months, so here goes.
If a budding professional pilot is bankrupt how would it likely effect the chances of getting a job?
Anyone who has been down this road with personal insight, their comments would be most welcome.
Regards Chester
I have done a search for information but the only thread i could find has been closed for 12 months, so here goes.
If a budding professional pilot is bankrupt how would it likely effect the chances of getting a job?
Anyone who has been down this road with personal insight, their comments would be most welcome.
Regards Chester
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The fact that the thread was closed doesn't alter the fact that the answers you need (but may not want) are almost certainly contained within. Nevertheless, as this seems to be a prevalent subject in the national news, I have reopened it.
Scroggs
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It would be helpful to have an airline personnel person come on here and give a view.
I do know that in a few of the more obvious professions like law, accountancy etc, bankruptcy would be an automatic reason for expulsion from the professional body as it calls into question judgement.
Whether those same standards exist in aviation I doubt.
I do know that in a few of the more obvious professions like law, accountancy etc, bankruptcy would be an automatic reason for expulsion from the professional body as it calls into question judgement.
Whether those same standards exist in aviation I doubt.
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Chester,
I spoke to a Balpa legal advisor before I declared bankruptcy 6 months ago and was assured that a potential employer would not legally be able to discriminate against me because I had declared bankruptcy. So if that is what concerns you, then I would suggest that you don't let it.
However, as a bankrupt, you will not be eligible for bank loans should you wish to borrow money for a type rating which might close a few doors to you. However, when it comes to jobs which involve a bond rather than an SSTR, you are as eligible as the next man/woman and there is no reason that your employer need ever find out that you have declared bankruptcy.
Bankruptcy does not suit everyone's circumstances but for me it has turned my life around and made me a much happier person. I had no property or assets to lose and only a cheap car which I was allowed to keep. I declared bankruptcy shortly after starting my first airline job (after nearly 4 years of instructing which crippled me financially). I wanted to make sure that I definitely wasn't going to need to borrow more money for a type rating before I took the plunge. If my first job had been a high paying jet job, even one requiring an SSTR, then I wouldn't have declared bankruptcy but as it was a low paying turboprop job, bankruptcy made perfect sense. I know that my next career move cannot invlove an SSTR but that, for me at my stage in the game, only really rules out easy and Ryanair, neither of which are high on my list of potential employers anyway. However, if you haven't got an airline job yet, you might want to wait until you have, just to hedge your bets.
I read this thread 6 months ago before I declared bankruptcy and I must say there is alot of misinformation and prejudice contained within its pages. Bankruptcy is designed to give a fresh start to people who have messed up, sometimes through little fault of their own, and that is exactly what it has done for me. I have a new bank account with internet banking facilities, standing orders and direct debits but apart from that I live, quite comfortably, in a cash world. No credit card bills or pestering phone calls. It's bliss.
I spoke to a Balpa legal advisor before I declared bankruptcy 6 months ago and was assured that a potential employer would not legally be able to discriminate against me because I had declared bankruptcy. So if that is what concerns you, then I would suggest that you don't let it.
However, as a bankrupt, you will not be eligible for bank loans should you wish to borrow money for a type rating which might close a few doors to you. However, when it comes to jobs which involve a bond rather than an SSTR, you are as eligible as the next man/woman and there is no reason that your employer need ever find out that you have declared bankruptcy.
Bankruptcy does not suit everyone's circumstances but for me it has turned my life around and made me a much happier person. I had no property or assets to lose and only a cheap car which I was allowed to keep. I declared bankruptcy shortly after starting my first airline job (after nearly 4 years of instructing which crippled me financially). I wanted to make sure that I definitely wasn't going to need to borrow more money for a type rating before I took the plunge. If my first job had been a high paying jet job, even one requiring an SSTR, then I wouldn't have declared bankruptcy but as it was a low paying turboprop job, bankruptcy made perfect sense. I know that my next career move cannot invlove an SSTR but that, for me at my stage in the game, only really rules out easy and Ryanair, neither of which are high on my list of potential employers anyway. However, if you haven't got an airline job yet, you might want to wait until you have, just to hedge your bets.
I read this thread 6 months ago before I declared bankruptcy and I must say there is alot of misinformation and prejudice contained within its pages. Bankruptcy is designed to give a fresh start to people who have messed up, sometimes through little fault of their own, and that is exactly what it has done for me. I have a new bank account with internet banking facilities, standing orders and direct debits but apart from that I live, quite comfortably, in a cash world. No credit card bills or pestering phone calls. It's bliss.
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Maltese Falcon
Thank you for giving me that insight, i am more into the rotary world so type ratings, self funded or otherwise don't really enter into it.
I will be able to source privately, the funds for either a FI(H) course or an IR(H) conversion course when i have finished the JAR ATPLs so i am thinking that Bankruptcy is the right path for me to take, as at the moment just to service the debt i have accrued is costing me £2400 per month and it takes a bit of earning on top of normal bills!!
Thanks again Chester
Thank you for giving me that insight, i am more into the rotary world so type ratings, self funded or otherwise don't really enter into it.
I will be able to source privately, the funds for either a FI(H) course or an IR(H) conversion course when i have finished the JAR ATPLs so i am thinking that Bankruptcy is the right path for me to take, as at the moment just to service the debt i have accrued is costing me £2400 per month and it takes a bit of earning on top of normal bills!!
Thanks again Chester
Were I to have say a 20yr old son or daughter who wanted to become a pilot then I would find it difficult to argue AGAINST going bankrupt.
A determined effort could result in borrowing around £50k of unsecured debt which could be used to attain a CPL/IR. Being a piece of paper with no monetary value the baliffs would have no interest in taking it off you once bankrupt.
At 21/22/23 you are not going to have any material possesions other than a car (which could be in my name) and a mobile phone. There is no stigma to bankrupty anymore and the penalties are mild and shortlived.
Borrowing and repaying £50k even if it is done as cheaply as your parents might do it in the form of remortgaging will still cost 1.75 times the sum borrowed, ie £87.5k
Such a debt so early in life will have massive repercussions for your lifetime wealth. So I would find it difficult to argue against any son or daughter of mine taking advatage of the current lending climate and bankruptcy rules.
Morally it is the wrong thing to do but logically it is the correct thing to do.
I'm more of a logician than a moraliser...
Cheers
WWW
A determined effort could result in borrowing around £50k of unsecured debt which could be used to attain a CPL/IR. Being a piece of paper with no monetary value the baliffs would have no interest in taking it off you once bankrupt.
At 21/22/23 you are not going to have any material possesions other than a car (which could be in my name) and a mobile phone. There is no stigma to bankrupty anymore and the penalties are mild and shortlived.
Borrowing and repaying £50k even if it is done as cheaply as your parents might do it in the form of remortgaging will still cost 1.75 times the sum borrowed, ie £87.5k
Such a debt so early in life will have massive repercussions for your lifetime wealth. So I would find it difficult to argue against any son or daughter of mine taking advatage of the current lending climate and bankruptcy rules.
Morally it is the wrong thing to do but logically it is the correct thing to do.
I'm more of a logician than a moraliser...
Cheers
WWW
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As a moderator I am not all sure you should be promoting that advice as "logically" it might definetaly Not be the correct thing to do. As a father of a son who wants to engage in Commercial pilot training, I would advocate the patent stupidity of bankruptcy as an option unless it was completely unavoidable and even then only after every other avenue had been exhausted. In reality there are no easy shortcuts to the profession, and this applies particularly to the financial aspects, as so many people here know only too well.In fact most lenders are constrained by the financial services act, and since last year have tightened up their lending criteria. Lending is now much more geared up to the applicants repayment ability. In truth unsecured lending of 50 -60k has never been an easy proposition despite anecdotal "evidence" to the contrary.
You will now find that banks who previously promoted "career lending" schemes for pilots or anybody else, either no longer do so, or are much more circumspect in their lending. Commercial lenders are not in any way obliged to lend you money, and there is a fairly sophisticated database of credit history and performance that all lenders subscribe to. Any history of bankruptcy is likely to make future lending difficult and well beyond the rates offered to the "prime" market.
The following is an extract on the problems of bankruptcy :
Credit and Other Problems
Nearly all finance companies, banks and many employers ask whether a person is or has been a Bankrupt. Records of a bankruptcy will also often by kept by credit agencies for up to six years. For this reason difficulties with obtaining credit or getting work in certain professions can persist for a number of years, even after discharge.
Bankruptcy Restrictions Orders
If a person has acted unlawfully or recklessly in accumulating their bankruptcy debts, they can be subjected to a Bankruptcy Restriction Order which extends the restrictions on credit and business activities for up to 15 years.
Bankruptcy Offences
Certain types of conduct prior to or during bankruptcy give rise to special offences which can be punished by fines, imprisonment or both. These mostly arise from concealing property, misleading the Official Receiver or Trustee in their enquiries, or simply failing to cooperate with either of them without very good cause.
Antecedent Transactions
Although not treated as offences, the Courts have special powers to overturn certain types of transaction that occurred prior to bankruptcy. Essentially, these are concerned with ensuring that Creditors are not unfairly treated. Examples include gifts made to the Bankrupt’s family that caused the insolvency or made it worse (called “Transactions at Undervalue”) or repayments made to some creditors in order to make them better off than others (called “Preferences”). Time limits apply to such transactions which vary according to whether the recipient is an associate of the Bankrupt or a family member.
So, why go Bankrupt?
We would never encourage anyone to go bankrupt without considering other options like an Individual Voluntary Arrangement (IVA) first. Bankruptcy can never be a pleasant experience and it can involve very real penalties for homeowners, business people, or people in special professions.
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Logically, bankruptcy was absolutely the correct thing for me to do. It wasn't unavoidable but it made perfect financial sense and I would have been stupid not to have done it. Beware of IVAs. They're a good idea if you have property or assets that you don't want to lose or if you're in a profession such as law or accounting where bankruptcy is a no no. An IVA can however work out alot more expensive than bankruptcy as you will have to pay a monthly sum over 5 years rather than the 3 for bankruptcy. And with an IVA, your credit rating will be screwed as much as it is with bankruptcy. Companies offering IVAs love to warn of the perils of bankruptcy because IVAs are their bread and butter.
But back to Chester2005's original concern. Bealzebub is wrong if he thinks that you will be asked on application forms or in interviews if you have ever declared bankruptcy. You're not going to be doing the company books so it is not a relevant question and would therefore be discriminatory. My current employer knows that I am bankrupt (but couldn't give a monkey's as it doesn't stop me being a good pilot or employee) because when you declare bankruptcy, your tax code changes until the end of that financial year and then reverts back to what it was. However, if you start a new job before the end of that financial year, your tax code reverts to what it was before you declared bankruptcy so your new employer will not find out that you are a bankrupt/discharged bankrupt. Would they care anyway? Some might take a dim view but I'm sure many would see it as sound decision making!
But back to Chester2005's original concern. Bealzebub is wrong if he thinks that you will be asked on application forms or in interviews if you have ever declared bankruptcy. You're not going to be doing the company books so it is not a relevant question and would therefore be discriminatory. My current employer knows that I am bankrupt (but couldn't give a monkey's as it doesn't stop me being a good pilot or employee) because when you declare bankruptcy, your tax code changes until the end of that financial year and then reverts back to what it was. However, if you start a new job before the end of that financial year, your tax code reverts to what it was before you declared bankruptcy so your new employer will not find out that you are a bankrupt/discharged bankrupt. Would they care anyway? Some might take a dim view but I'm sure many would see it as sound decision making!
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Assuming that the 20 year old gets a job flying, it sounds like a good logical idea. However, if they were to lose their licence, not get a job, or have to pursue a different career later in life, their options would be restricted. I don't think even discharged bankrupts could go into the professions, and whilst employers aren't legally allowed to discriminate, in reality they might find a way to do so. They won't be able to run their own business while undischarged, but from memory that's only for around 2 years.
Sounds like it's **** or bust...
waterpau
Sounds like it's **** or bust...
waterpau
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Listening to all this is very interesting.
I think the key is to know your circumstances now and speculate 5 and 10 years into the future, and also take some sound advice form people that know this inside out. The last thing you want to is to go for it and find it's not as rosy as it all sounded over the phone and get double buggered.
Something like this can sound very tempting especially for young people like me, looking forward to an enormous amount of debt at such a young age, knowing we don't actually need to hold onto it (if you're prepared for the consequences of bankruptcy).
It's nice to know it's worked out for you Maltese Falcon, an example of how the system works, but when you work it too hard and push it too far it may just backfire.
I think the key is to know your circumstances now and speculate 5 and 10 years into the future, and also take some sound advice form people that know this inside out. The last thing you want to is to go for it and find it's not as rosy as it all sounded over the phone and get double buggered.
Something like this can sound very tempting especially for young people like me, looking forward to an enormous amount of debt at such a young age, knowing we don't actually need to hold onto it (if you're prepared for the consequences of bankruptcy).
It's nice to know it's worked out for you Maltese Falcon, an example of how the system works, but when you work it too hard and push it too far it may just backfire.