BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
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A 19 year (with an old head on young shoulders) would probably get away with it. The judge would most likely consider the bankruptcy to be caused by greedy creditors trying to take advantage of a naive youngster and getting burnt in the process.
I'm a 25 year old PPL with my ATPL theory in the bag. I've no real assets, just a pile of hard earned cash saved for the rest of my training. The training will the done in the States and will be followed by a couple of years of general aviation work out there. Even before I read this post, it had occured to me that I have £50,000-£100,000 of credit available through my plastic pals. It does seem very tempting to give my savings to my parents for safe keeping, pay for everything on cards and declare myself bankrupt. If I was on the other side of the Atlantic in a low paid FI job with sub £5000 debts on each card and a £50,000 total debt it would make me a very hard debtor to chase. Three years later I could have a good flying job and get my savings returned.
I've not yet read anything in this thread to convince me that I could get away with a scam like this. There does seem to be a loophole but it would take a brave person to try to take advantage of it.
I'm a 25 year old PPL with my ATPL theory in the bag. I've no real assets, just a pile of hard earned cash saved for the rest of my training. The training will the done in the States and will be followed by a couple of years of general aviation work out there. Even before I read this post, it had occured to me that I have £50,000-£100,000 of credit available through my plastic pals. It does seem very tempting to give my savings to my parents for safe keeping, pay for everything on cards and declare myself bankrupt. If I was on the other side of the Atlantic in a low paid FI job with sub £5000 debts on each card and a £50,000 total debt it would make me a very hard debtor to chase. Three years later I could have a good flying job and get my savings returned.
I've not yet read anything in this thread to convince me that I could get away with a scam like this. There does seem to be a loophole but it would take a brave person to try to take advantage of it.
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What a magic thread 
This should be the first thread that everyone reads before signing any dotted line !!
As mentioned already I think there are many people out there who have this problem and there will be more to come.
My views on it are as follows.
Having been a creditor in a case where I leant money to someone to further their career I was most annoyed when they filed bankruptcy. I had taken the said individual to court and legal costs had mounted. I had won the case and then in the end after I was awarded judgement, costs and interest they filed bankruptcy. Whoosh the lot lost. They walked into the court in London filled in the forms had a hearing made up some story (they don't check it) and then had all their debts wiped out.
They have a cup of coffee with the official receivers (O.R.) and all they want to do is file it away somewhere they are not interested in the creditors getting their money. I was not the only creditor and the total debts were more than 90,000GBP still the OR didn't give a stuff.
In my situation I had information available to me that the said individual had had funds and moved them to "other locations" but if you tell the OR this they will do nothing other than tell you to get an ISP. As a creditor you have to pay for a ISP (I think that's what it was, an Insolvency practitioner and they cost the earth !! they make legal fees look small) and if they do get close to finding a hidden loot odds are they will have either spent it or moved it if its found so its an expensive exercise with possible no fruit at the end.
If you get an ISP set on you then oh man the headaches will not go away, they can grill you till you are blue in the face and generally it's their job to be a thorn in your side, however these are normally only hired if there is serious doubt about how genuine the bankruptcy is.
Now that the discharge term is 1 year and not 3 years from a creditors point of view I think it is totally disgusting (labour rant rant) several friends of mine who have setup businesses have all been screwed by people filing bankruptcy. I have no problem when it's against a multi-million pound corp. but when its Mr X who gets off his/her arse to setup a firm its just wrong imho (in my humble opinion)
I used to think it was morally incorrect to file for bankruptcy but having been on the receiving end I would recommend it to anyone who as at their wits end. Know what will happen before you do though. All your accounts will be frozen etc so I think it would have to be well planned. Your last X years of bank transactions can be inspected (or so the rules say) but getting a bank to release statements is next to impossible (unless you are the bank !!) they are supposed to be given to the OR on your initial coffee morning but if you have lost them..oh well !! less work for the OR (they love that) bitter grunt snarl.....
One other thing is this, if you get a job in that year you are supposed to advise your OR so a portion can be allocated to your creditors.If you forget they dont enquire !! I think with the one year rule it will probably tie in with peoples year of travelling now !
I know one thing it may affect and that is if you want to emigrate on the future, that is a definite question on the forms.
All the best and good luck everyone.
Banks make too much money anyway !
cover arse section:
I must stress the above is all my own opinions and reflect the levels of service I and friends have received as creditors. It may not however be typical of normal service/bankrupcy (though I personally imagine it is)
Fair_Weather_Flyer
Re reckless insolvency you may find more on it here
http://www.insolvency.gov.uk http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/legisla.../eactindiv.htm
This should be the first thread that everyone reads before signing any dotted line !!As mentioned already I think there are many people out there who have this problem and there will be more to come.
My views on it are as follows.
Having been a creditor in a case where I leant money to someone to further their career I was most annoyed when they filed bankruptcy. I had taken the said individual to court and legal costs had mounted. I had won the case and then in the end after I was awarded judgement, costs and interest they filed bankruptcy. Whoosh the lot lost. They walked into the court in London filled in the forms had a hearing made up some story (they don't check it) and then had all their debts wiped out.
They have a cup of coffee with the official receivers (O.R.) and all they want to do is file it away somewhere they are not interested in the creditors getting their money. I was not the only creditor and the total debts were more than 90,000GBP still the OR didn't give a stuff.
In my situation I had information available to me that the said individual had had funds and moved them to "other locations" but if you tell the OR this they will do nothing other than tell you to get an ISP. As a creditor you have to pay for a ISP (I think that's what it was, an Insolvency practitioner and they cost the earth !! they make legal fees look small) and if they do get close to finding a hidden loot odds are they will have either spent it or moved it if its found so its an expensive exercise with possible no fruit at the end.
If you get an ISP set on you then oh man the headaches will not go away, they can grill you till you are blue in the face and generally it's their job to be a thorn in your side, however these are normally only hired if there is serious doubt about how genuine the bankruptcy is.
Now that the discharge term is 1 year and not 3 years from a creditors point of view I think it is totally disgusting (labour rant rant) several friends of mine who have setup businesses have all been screwed by people filing bankruptcy. I have no problem when it's against a multi-million pound corp. but when its Mr X who gets off his/her arse to setup a firm its just wrong imho (in my humble opinion)
I used to think it was morally incorrect to file for bankruptcy but having been on the receiving end I would recommend it to anyone who as at their wits end. Know what will happen before you do though. All your accounts will be frozen etc so I think it would have to be well planned. Your last X years of bank transactions can be inspected (or so the rules say) but getting a bank to release statements is next to impossible (unless you are the bank !!) they are supposed to be given to the OR on your initial coffee morning but if you have lost them..oh well !! less work for the OR (they love that) bitter grunt snarl.....
One other thing is this, if you get a job in that year you are supposed to advise your OR so a portion can be allocated to your creditors.If you forget they dont enquire !! I think with the one year rule it will probably tie in with peoples year of travelling now !
I know one thing it may affect and that is if you want to emigrate on the future, that is a definite question on the forms.
All the best and good luck everyone.
Banks make too much money anyway !
cover arse section:
I must stress the above is all my own opinions and reflect the levels of service I and friends have received as creditors. It may not however be typical of normal service/bankrupcy (though I personally imagine it is)
Fair_Weather_Flyer
Re reckless insolvency you may find more on it here
http://www.insolvency.gov.uk http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/legisla.../eactindiv.htm
Last edited by flystudent; 13th May 2004 at 18:46.
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WARNING: Rant ahead...
Flystudent -
Why not sign a confession to fraud with your shiny new job contract?
You are committing a criminal offence if you do not disclose change of income or any assets you aquire during your bankruptcy. You sign a document to this effect and it will land you in a CRIMINAL court for breaking your conditions, if you keep it quiet. They are able to access your account for info at any time.
However after reading your cover arse section I let you off, just wanted to set it straight!
Fair Weather Flyer -
How selfish!!!!!!!! 
Bankruptcy is not a free loan. Its a solution for those who have found themselves in financial difiiculty, such as from losing jobs, becoming too illl to work and not being able to pay off the debts they have been keeping up with in the past.
If you have the money saved for your training, then use it.
You CANNOT hand it over to your parents for 'safe keeping'. Its immoral! It is also a question listed on your initial paperwork and to miss something off or bend the truth is committing an offence. You are technically obtaining funds by deception. You sign an affidavit and take an oath which means when they find out you have squirrelled away a few grand and retrieved it few years later, you are in deep. They are likely to be more watchful now as the law has changed.
The more people who do as you are thinking and use bankruptcy as free fliying training, the more the law will toughen up and people that really need it will suffer.
Rant over.
Six
Flystudent -
One other thing is this, if you get a job in that year you are supposed to advise your OR so a portion can be allocated to your creditors.If you forget they dont enquire !!
You are committing a criminal offence if you do not disclose change of income or any assets you aquire during your bankruptcy. You sign a document to this effect and it will land you in a CRIMINAL court for breaking your conditions, if you keep it quiet. They are able to access your account for info at any time.
However after reading your cover arse section I let you off, just wanted to set it straight!
Fair Weather Flyer -
to give my savings to my parents for safe keeping, pay for everything on cards and declare myself bankrupt. If I was on the other side of the Atlantic in a low paid FI job with sub £5000 debts on each card and a £50,000 total debt it would make me a very hard debtor to chase. Three years later I could have a good flying job and get my savings returned.
Bankruptcy is not a free loan. Its a solution for those who have found themselves in financial difiiculty, such as from losing jobs, becoming too illl to work and not being able to pay off the debts they have been keeping up with in the past.
If you have the money saved for your training, then use it.
You CANNOT hand it over to your parents for 'safe keeping'. Its immoral! It is also a question listed on your initial paperwork and to miss something off or bend the truth is committing an offence. You are technically obtaining funds by deception. You sign an affidavit and take an oath which means when they find out you have squirrelled away a few grand and retrieved it few years later, you are in deep. They are likely to be more watchful now as the law has changed.
The more people who do as you are thinking and use bankruptcy as free fliying training, the more the law will toughen up and people that really need it will suffer.
Rant over.
Six
But will they?
It seems to me that the way the system is being changed the aim is to let more creditors get their fingers burnt more often. Thus compelling them to tighten up and refine their lending criteria without choking off the useful ready-credit facilities used sensibly by millions in this country.
I can't see the courts allocating scarce resources to bankruptcy investigation of trivial ( <£1,000,000 ) sums...
Cheers
WWW
It seems to me that the way the system is being changed the aim is to let more creditors get their fingers burnt more often. Thus compelling them to tighten up and refine their lending criteria without choking off the useful ready-credit facilities used sensibly by millions in this country.
I can't see the courts allocating scarce resources to bankruptcy investigation of trivial ( <£1,000,000 ) sums...
Cheers
WWW
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The stated aim of the new legislation is to encourage an enterprising spirit amongst the population of our sacred isle. By reducing the stigma and long term legal implications of going bump we are suppposed to be more willing to take risks, like our American cousins. I say, "be careful what you wish for....."
I think that sixmilehighclub is confusing morality with what is possible whilst operating on the fringes of the law. In the three years that I have been involved in business management, I have come across outrageous and cheeky scams that have been legal, just. The new bankruptcy laws are mana from heaven for anyone who is willing to tread the tightrope between outrageous and illegal.
Self funded ATPL training has always been a big risk; the kind of risk that our government would like to see us take more often. Now, if it things don't pan out, we can declare bankruptcy and one year later, it's more or less business as usual. Does that encourage me to go through with the rest of the training? Damned right it does! After spending my own money, I can start spending on the cards and stay in the aviation game, building hours in jobs that don't have to pay the bills. If I get a good job in the long run, then I can pay off my bills from my salary. On the other hand, if I reach credit meltdown before that point, I can declare myself bankrupt. I'd still be able to chase that dream job, albeit with a ball and chain tied round my feet for a year. There is no way I'm going to get suckered into one of those basket loans that spreads the debt misery over forty years. Going bust would be a better bet!
Contrary to the impression I give, I've always been responsible with credit; that is why I can raise an insane amount of cash on unsecured cards. I didn't make the new laws, but if they favour me, not greedy creditors, why shouldn't I take advantage?
I think that sixmilehighclub is confusing morality with what is possible whilst operating on the fringes of the law. In the three years that I have been involved in business management, I have come across outrageous and cheeky scams that have been legal, just. The new bankruptcy laws are mana from heaven for anyone who is willing to tread the tightrope between outrageous and illegal.
Self funded ATPL training has always been a big risk; the kind of risk that our government would like to see us take more often. Now, if it things don't pan out, we can declare bankruptcy and one year later, it's more or less business as usual. Does that encourage me to go through with the rest of the training? Damned right it does! After spending my own money, I can start spending on the cards and stay in the aviation game, building hours in jobs that don't have to pay the bills. If I get a good job in the long run, then I can pay off my bills from my salary. On the other hand, if I reach credit meltdown before that point, I can declare myself bankrupt. I'd still be able to chase that dream job, albeit with a ball and chain tied round my feet for a year. There is no way I'm going to get suckered into one of those basket loans that spreads the debt misery over forty years. Going bust would be a better bet!
Contrary to the impression I give, I've always been responsible with credit; that is why I can raise an insane amount of cash on unsecured cards. I didn't make the new laws, but if they favour me, not greedy creditors, why shouldn't I take advantage?
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Fair Weather Flyer-
Yep, I once had a ceiling of £80k possible credit, thats just on the cards I had, and there was offers of many more. But it didn't make me responsible, I thought I was being clever with my credit.
You say what you are planning is acting on the fringe of the law and not being immoral.
There are those who struggle and stress over being forced into bankruptcy against their wishes. Then theres those who do it to purposely get freebies and keep their savings to buy nice things one day. How is that not immoral?? Its outside the law too.
Picture this;
You fund your training on your cards, then go bankrupt. You live under big brothers eyes for a year. Your credit rating suffers for a further 6 years. But you have managed to land a commercial flying job, and get back your nice tidy sum you managed to hide from the law. So you get your house, car, manage to get more credit cards, then the airline you are working for goes under and no-one else is recruiting or doeasnt want to employ you. You find yourself having to go bankrupt as you are struggling to pay off your mortgage and new debts.
Bankruptcy is tougher if you have to do it second time round, the rules change, and its not as easy.
The government may be looking to encourage an enterprising spirit, but in my opinion I dont think they meant figuring out a way to rip off the system.
Anyways, you get found out and you may find yourself looking at a criminal record, which may not look too good when you try to get your airside pass.
If youre that daring, call an official receiver at your local insolvency office and ask them what the possible outcome of your idea may be.
Nothing personal.
Six
I've always been responsible with credit; that is why I can raise an insane amount of cash on unsecured cards.
You say what you are planning is acting on the fringe of the law and not being immoral.
There are those who struggle and stress over being forced into bankruptcy against their wishes. Then theres those who do it to purposely get freebies and keep their savings to buy nice things one day. How is that not immoral?? Its outside the law too.
Picture this;
You fund your training on your cards, then go bankrupt. You live under big brothers eyes for a year. Your credit rating suffers for a further 6 years. But you have managed to land a commercial flying job, and get back your nice tidy sum you managed to hide from the law. So you get your house, car, manage to get more credit cards, then the airline you are working for goes under and no-one else is recruiting or doeasnt want to employ you. You find yourself having to go bankrupt as you are struggling to pay off your mortgage and new debts.
Bankruptcy is tougher if you have to do it second time round, the rules change, and its not as easy.
The government may be looking to encourage an enterprising spirit, but in my opinion I dont think they meant figuring out a way to rip off the system.
Anyways, you get found out and you may find yourself looking at a criminal record, which may not look too good when you try to get your airside pass.
If youre that daring, call an official receiver at your local insolvency office and ask them what the possible outcome of your idea may be.
Nothing personal.
Six
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Bankruptcy is usually the very last resort for people who often, through no fault of their own, find themselves in an otherwise desparate position. Borrowing money has consequences and should be considered seriously before it is undertaken.
For the few that advocate this as route to obtaining a commercial pilots licence that is otherwise unaffordable, bear the following in mind.
Many airlines will require their pilots to hold a company credit card or cash floats as part of the job. If bankruptcy rules you out of this then there are plenty of candidates out there without this impediment.
Pilots are employed on the companies perceived attitudes of responsibility not recklessness. Competition for the jobs is fierce, and you are well advised to have very few blots on your record, whatever that record may be.
For the few that advocate this as route to obtaining a commercial pilots licence that is otherwise unaffordable, bear the following in mind.
Many airlines will require their pilots to hold a company credit card or cash floats as part of the job. If bankruptcy rules you out of this then there are plenty of candidates out there without this impediment.
Pilots are employed on the companies perceived attitudes of responsibility not recklessness. Competition for the jobs is fierce, and you are well advised to have very few blots on your record, whatever that record may be.
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does anybody in the know actually KNOW for sure whether being a discharged or undischarged bankrupt would inhibit getting a commercial flying job with an airline in this country, i have head in the US you cannot be a commander if you have filed for bankruptcy... I am now at my witts end with idiots from banks not listening to me....
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TheReciever2004,
Do not PANIC!
YOU ARE NOT ALONE!
If you asked most student pilots, most 60% would feel exactly like yourself at the moment. The rest are lying!!
There are many answers to your question:
The Enterprise Act has cleared up a few restrictions on what professions can continue to work whilst still a Bankrupt.
I have had a look at the Act, there is no mention of Pilot, or anything Aviation related.
Bankruptcy - does not stop anyone obtaining an air side pass in the UK, it only checks Criminal not Civil proceedings.
Contract of Employment - this is the tricky one. The Enterprise Act has tried to clear this up a bit. If you handle money, can be led to temptation ie. black mailed etc. You cannot continue in your profession. Even MP's can now continue in office (Funny that - Mr Mandelson).
I have had a look at my CofE and it does state that if you are Bankrupt- it becomes a breach of contract.
However, you must remember that many CofE are blanket wide ie. they cover everybody from the cleaner to the managing director. Therefore, it really is in the hand of the employer. However, there is a strong case (for pilots) not to be sanctioned. You don't handle money or deal with contracts etc.
On this thread, someone stated problems with regard to Company Credit Cards- you will not be credit checked they're not yours but the company's. You are a signee, nothing else. So we can forget that (See a good point - at last).
It really is upto the companies you are applying for. Are you a member of BALPA? Join it's free don't get much but they great source of information. I'd ask them, they generally know which airlines take a dim view. Most I would say are more interested in your flying ability. I wouldn't tell them, as such, but if they ask I would tell them. You'll be surprised most will be ok. If you've tried your best that's what matters. Also, they've spent a small fortune so it's unlikely you'll be shown the door.
The only way, Companies find out is because of the tax code you will be given . You don't pay tax in that financial year. No you won't be given a lump sum it goes straight to the OR. The best time is after New Year, by the time the tax man has caught up the financial year is finished and you go back to a normal tax code. It may only last for the month of March- think of some lame excuse (mix up etc) for the Lady in accounts, they probably won't ask any way.
If you are considering the Bankruptcy route I would strongly advice you to contact the following organisations:
www.nationaldebtline.co.uk
tel 08088084000. (it won't show on your bill)
www.insolvency.gov.co.uk (forms and advice literature are here)
I was, in a past life, a Insolvency Practitioner for GT , up North. I came across many cases that could of been avoided just by the client using his/her own common sense and facing upto the problem.
This is what I would do in your position: DO THIS TODAY NOT TOMORROW TODAY!!
1 Write to every creditor you have (photocopy letter, recorded delivery -proof of posting). Work out a budget - TELL THEM- this what you can afford - don't be over optimistic but don't take the piss either. Send them the budget sheet. Share the surplus equally amongst the creditors by the number of them NOT by the amount you owe them. DO NOT INFORM THE CREDITORS HOW MUCH YOU OWE EACH ONE. Just tell them you have say, 5 creditors, name them only.If they ask, say that you are not at liberty to tell them - remember you are not bankrupt, yet.
Tell them you will try to get a second job in the near future.
2 Wait for the replies.Try to get a second job. If it's an extra £30 a week it's better than nothing.
3 If the majority agree to your budget and say a few don't,write to them and inform them that the other creditors have agreed. TELL THEM you may have to instigate self declared bankrupcy - in the very near future if they do not agree. This I'm sure (9/10) will
get them to agree. They have too by law-ish (Banking Code) - they don't have a choice.
4 If they all agree, bless your lucky stars! Stick to the budget. Tell your folks/friends that money's a bit tight and you can't afford big presents/ going out etc. Good friends will buy you a few drinks I'm sure. Most are probably very proud of what you've achieved and don't mind helping out. Keep your pecker up !!( inc if your a Girlie!!).
If you find that you are struggling after coming to an arrangement, then it may be best in the long term to declare yourself Bankrupt and give yourself a clean break. Give yourself 6 months though.
5 If you've started recieving CCJ's respond to them DO NOT ignore them, fill out the forms they send. TELL THEM this is what you can reasonably afford as before.
If the Banks have passed on the debt to a "recovery agency" please read the following very carefully>
These organisations are the scum of the earth. They are not independent of the banks( no matter what they say)- they are owned by them- directly and indirectly. The "customer service agents" are the Children of Satan, they don't care one bit about your "Story". They only care about themselves. This is why. THEY ARE PAID VERY, VERY LOW BASIC PAY. THEY GET THE MAJORITY OF THEIR PAY FROM YOU!
They work on commission. If they can get you to pay it off in one lump sum - they a rolling in it - upto 20% of the debt is commission. That's why they will phone at 2am, 6am, 8am, 10am.
You cannot complain. They are not governed by the the Banking Ombudsman or the Finance regulator (What ever they call themselves these days).
DO NOT TRY TO NEGOTIATE WITH THEM.
Follow their wishes, agree to their ridiculous terms, keep a log of all their phone calls (Date/Time/What they said/Tone of voice). They do not like sending out letters - it's a record of their harrassment, I guarentee that you will be first to hear that your debt has been sold by a phone call.
Keep this going for at least untill Christmas Week, 23rd all ways a good day. When they phone tell them that you are going to instigate Self-Declared Bankruptcy in the New Year and wish the bastards a Happy Christmas and Happy New Year. This is the only way to deal with these people. They will not leave you alone, even after you've agreed terms. I promise.
Enjoy Christmas - try to pay some token amounts to your creditors ( evidence that your trying to pay).
In the New Year (first week), down-load forms from the insolvency service. Apply to your local court, for an apointment.
Before you get there:
Put all your Bank statements in order (inc credit card statements etc). It use to piss me off having to spend a day putting other peoples financial statements in order. If you look organized they will be easy on you. If it's a mess- you can be prosecuted for not keeping organized records (doesn't matter if your a business or not)
In your statement on the form, write down exactly what happened and why you think it happened. That you've tried your best, ie. second job. It's affecting your health- phone calls from Children of Satan at 2am etc.
DO NOT TRY TO HIDE ANY LARGE PURCHASES OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS.
They can check, by looking thru statements, land registry, DVLA, Credit Reference agancies.
Do not lie about Bank accounts. Your Bankrupcy will published in the Gazette (official paper of the courts). Banks check this and have to tell the Official Reciever if you are one of theirs. You are also published in the local pressie. liverpool echo etc
At the Court, dress appropriately. Put a shirt and tie on.
The meeting will be with a Judge, usually in his/her office - no public gallery- just you.
Do not sit down until asked to. Show them some courtesy/ respect. Answer the questions when asked. Do not speak until spoken too (They are reading your file). They will sign the papers. Do not smile with the relief of a new beginning/ dawn (until your in the pub!!).
You will have to speak to the OR, they will ask for statements etc, hand them over.Including all correspondance with your creditors You have evidence that you have tried your best, letters (proof of posting) - creditors will say that you ignored their correspondance to get you in to trouble), Direct Debits to Creditors, CCJ's etc.
The idea behind this is to get at least 3 months of proof that you've tried your best, the OR will only ask for three months of statements - in most cases. They will be ok with you, if your debt is less than £60,000 - it's more of an administration exercise.
Enjoy the rest of your life.
DO NOT GET IN THIS MESS AGAIN.
Avoid all forms of credit. Only allow yourself a small Overdraft and Mortgage in the future.
Get yourself on that Postal thing so you don't get adverts tempting money thru the post.
It was stated, in this tread, that second time round they will crucify you - which is correct - but if you look after your finances even if you are made unemployed, you will not face Bankruptcy. Get health/ unemployment cover for your mortgage as a safe guard. BALPA does this !!
Iam very, very sorry that this is a very long reply. But it's a very complicated topic.
I know of 3 pilots in my Company that have been Bankrupt. It hasn't affected them, career wise what's so ever.
We all go through up's and down in life and this is no different.
Less than 50 years ago, divorce was frowned upon and look at it now!! So don't be embarassed or ashamed. If you've tried your best - the OR can see this. They are not stupid.
However, a word of warning for those who may be tempted to go down this route for financial gain. It costs £12,000 (min) Bankrupt an individual, So if you take the rise, you could end up paying this plus your debts and could even end up in Jail for Fraud.
I've tried to be comprehensive as possible but If anyone would like some advice, PM me or visit debtline.
What ever you do thereciever2004, don't endanger your health by getting depressed or stressed.There's plenty of worth while careers as fall back. IMHO you'll be ok.
WWW - Any chance of having the debtline number put on a sticky?
Do not PANIC!
YOU ARE NOT ALONE!
If you asked most student pilots, most 60% would feel exactly like yourself at the moment. The rest are lying!!
There are many answers to your question:
The Enterprise Act has cleared up a few restrictions on what professions can continue to work whilst still a Bankrupt.
I have had a look at the Act, there is no mention of Pilot, or anything Aviation related.
Bankruptcy - does not stop anyone obtaining an air side pass in the UK, it only checks Criminal not Civil proceedings.
Contract of Employment - this is the tricky one. The Enterprise Act has tried to clear this up a bit. If you handle money, can be led to temptation ie. black mailed etc. You cannot continue in your profession. Even MP's can now continue in office (Funny that - Mr Mandelson).
I have had a look at my CofE and it does state that if you are Bankrupt- it becomes a breach of contract.
However, you must remember that many CofE are blanket wide ie. they cover everybody from the cleaner to the managing director. Therefore, it really is in the hand of the employer. However, there is a strong case (for pilots) not to be sanctioned. You don't handle money or deal with contracts etc.
On this thread, someone stated problems with regard to Company Credit Cards- you will not be credit checked they're not yours but the company's. You are a signee, nothing else. So we can forget that (See a good point - at last).
It really is upto the companies you are applying for. Are you a member of BALPA? Join it's free don't get much but they great source of information. I'd ask them, they generally know which airlines take a dim view. Most I would say are more interested in your flying ability. I wouldn't tell them, as such, but if they ask I would tell them. You'll be surprised most will be ok. If you've tried your best that's what matters. Also, they've spent a small fortune so it's unlikely you'll be shown the door.
The only way, Companies find out is because of the tax code you will be given . You don't pay tax in that financial year. No you won't be given a lump sum it goes straight to the OR. The best time is after New Year, by the time the tax man has caught up the financial year is finished and you go back to a normal tax code. It may only last for the month of March- think of some lame excuse (mix up etc) for the Lady in accounts, they probably won't ask any way.
If you are considering the Bankruptcy route I would strongly advice you to contact the following organisations:
www.nationaldebtline.co.uk
tel 08088084000. (it won't show on your bill)
www.insolvency.gov.co.uk (forms and advice literature are here)
I was, in a past life, a Insolvency Practitioner for GT , up North. I came across many cases that could of been avoided just by the client using his/her own common sense and facing upto the problem.
This is what I would do in your position: DO THIS TODAY NOT TOMORROW TODAY!!
1 Write to every creditor you have (photocopy letter, recorded delivery -proof of posting). Work out a budget - TELL THEM- this what you can afford - don't be over optimistic but don't take the piss either. Send them the budget sheet. Share the surplus equally amongst the creditors by the number of them NOT by the amount you owe them. DO NOT INFORM THE CREDITORS HOW MUCH YOU OWE EACH ONE. Just tell them you have say, 5 creditors, name them only.If they ask, say that you are not at liberty to tell them - remember you are not bankrupt, yet.
Tell them you will try to get a second job in the near future.
2 Wait for the replies.Try to get a second job. If it's an extra £30 a week it's better than nothing.
3 If the majority agree to your budget and say a few don't,write to them and inform them that the other creditors have agreed. TELL THEM you may have to instigate self declared bankrupcy - in the very near future if they do not agree. This I'm sure (9/10) will
get them to agree. They have too by law-ish (Banking Code) - they don't have a choice.
4 If they all agree, bless your lucky stars! Stick to the budget. Tell your folks/friends that money's a bit tight and you can't afford big presents/ going out etc. Good friends will buy you a few drinks I'm sure. Most are probably very proud of what you've achieved and don't mind helping out. Keep your pecker up !!( inc if your a Girlie!!).
If you find that you are struggling after coming to an arrangement, then it may be best in the long term to declare yourself Bankrupt and give yourself a clean break. Give yourself 6 months though.
5 If you've started recieving CCJ's respond to them DO NOT ignore them, fill out the forms they send. TELL THEM this is what you can reasonably afford as before.
If the Banks have passed on the debt to a "recovery agency" please read the following very carefully>
These organisations are the scum of the earth. They are not independent of the banks( no matter what they say)- they are owned by them- directly and indirectly. The "customer service agents" are the Children of Satan, they don't care one bit about your "Story". They only care about themselves. This is why. THEY ARE PAID VERY, VERY LOW BASIC PAY. THEY GET THE MAJORITY OF THEIR PAY FROM YOU!
They work on commission. If they can get you to pay it off in one lump sum - they a rolling in it - upto 20% of the debt is commission. That's why they will phone at 2am, 6am, 8am, 10am.
You cannot complain. They are not governed by the the Banking Ombudsman or the Finance regulator (What ever they call themselves these days).
DO NOT TRY TO NEGOTIATE WITH THEM.
Follow their wishes, agree to their ridiculous terms, keep a log of all their phone calls (Date/Time/What they said/Tone of voice). They do not like sending out letters - it's a record of their harrassment, I guarentee that you will be first to hear that your debt has been sold by a phone call.
Keep this going for at least untill Christmas Week, 23rd all ways a good day. When they phone tell them that you are going to instigate Self-Declared Bankruptcy in the New Year and wish the bastards a Happy Christmas and Happy New Year. This is the only way to deal with these people. They will not leave you alone, even after you've agreed terms. I promise.
Enjoy Christmas - try to pay some token amounts to your creditors ( evidence that your trying to pay).
In the New Year (first week), down-load forms from the insolvency service. Apply to your local court, for an apointment.
Before you get there:
Put all your Bank statements in order (inc credit card statements etc). It use to piss me off having to spend a day putting other peoples financial statements in order. If you look organized they will be easy on you. If it's a mess- you can be prosecuted for not keeping organized records (doesn't matter if your a business or not)
In your statement on the form, write down exactly what happened and why you think it happened. That you've tried your best, ie. second job. It's affecting your health- phone calls from Children of Satan at 2am etc.
DO NOT TRY TO HIDE ANY LARGE PURCHASES OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS.
They can check, by looking thru statements, land registry, DVLA, Credit Reference agancies.
Do not lie about Bank accounts. Your Bankrupcy will published in the Gazette (official paper of the courts). Banks check this and have to tell the Official Reciever if you are one of theirs. You are also published in the local pressie. liverpool echo etc
At the Court, dress appropriately. Put a shirt and tie on.
The meeting will be with a Judge, usually in his/her office - no public gallery- just you.
Do not sit down until asked to. Show them some courtesy/ respect. Answer the questions when asked. Do not speak until spoken too (They are reading your file). They will sign the papers. Do not smile with the relief of a new beginning/ dawn (until your in the pub!!).
You will have to speak to the OR, they will ask for statements etc, hand them over.Including all correspondance with your creditors You have evidence that you have tried your best, letters (proof of posting) - creditors will say that you ignored their correspondance to get you in to trouble), Direct Debits to Creditors, CCJ's etc.
The idea behind this is to get at least 3 months of proof that you've tried your best, the OR will only ask for three months of statements - in most cases. They will be ok with you, if your debt is less than £60,000 - it's more of an administration exercise.
Enjoy the rest of your life.
DO NOT GET IN THIS MESS AGAIN.
Avoid all forms of credit. Only allow yourself a small Overdraft and Mortgage in the future.
Get yourself on that Postal thing so you don't get adverts tempting money thru the post.
It was stated, in this tread, that second time round they will crucify you - which is correct - but if you look after your finances even if you are made unemployed, you will not face Bankruptcy. Get health/ unemployment cover for your mortgage as a safe guard. BALPA does this !!
Iam very, very sorry that this is a very long reply. But it's a very complicated topic.
I know of 3 pilots in my Company that have been Bankrupt. It hasn't affected them, career wise what's so ever.
We all go through up's and down in life and this is no different.
Less than 50 years ago, divorce was frowned upon and look at it now!! So don't be embarassed or ashamed. If you've tried your best - the OR can see this. They are not stupid.
However, a word of warning for those who may be tempted to go down this route for financial gain. It costs £12,000 (min) Bankrupt an individual, So if you take the rise, you could end up paying this plus your debts and could even end up in Jail for Fraud.
I've tried to be comprehensive as possible but If anyone would like some advice, PM me or visit debtline.
What ever you do thereciever2004, don't endanger your health by getting depressed or stressed.There's plenty of worth while careers as fall back. IMHO you'll be ok.
WWW - Any chance of having the debtline number put on a sticky?
Last edited by PILOTOWL; 27th Oct 2005 at 21:02.
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While I can sympathise with the situations here, something strikes me as a little sick:
I have burnt my ass working £3.50 an hour jobs, using my entire inheritance to pay of my student loan. This is a loan that amounts to nothing in practice other than a piece of paper.
Somehow, someone who has got to experience what could be construed as an expensive hobby, with a well paying and attractive (and over subscribed) job at the end of it, getting to write of those tens of thousands of pounds of debt....and then potentially have employment in that profession at the end of it....
All strikes me as a little unfair that bankruptcy is being considered as a tidy way out of having to pay back a debt, one which in the course of employment on a pilots salary is quite repayable. Especially when so many in this community bitch and moan about immigrants and dole bludgers.
If a pilots career was written off? Yes. Bankruptcy might be a fair cop. But if you are looking to declare bankrupt, then worrying about how it might affect future airline career possibilities?!?!
I have burnt my ass working £3.50 an hour jobs, using my entire inheritance to pay of my student loan. This is a loan that amounts to nothing in practice other than a piece of paper.
Somehow, someone who has got to experience what could be construed as an expensive hobby, with a well paying and attractive (and over subscribed) job at the end of it, getting to write of those tens of thousands of pounds of debt....and then potentially have employment in that profession at the end of it....
All strikes me as a little unfair that bankruptcy is being considered as a tidy way out of having to pay back a debt, one which in the course of employment on a pilots salary is quite repayable. Especially when so many in this community bitch and moan about immigrants and dole bludgers.
If a pilots career was written off? Yes. Bankruptcy might be a fair cop. But if you are looking to declare bankrupt, then worrying about how it might affect future airline career possibilities?!?!
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Dave,
I can see where your coming from.
Unfortunately, I don't think tehreceiver2004 is taking this as an easy way out.
From my post, you will read, that you have to "substanciate" that you have tried your best to agree some type of arrangement with a creditor/creditors before declaring Bankruptcy.If you get credit without any intention of paying it back that's a Criminal Act , thus say goodbye to your pilot career. However, it can so easily go wrong. Imagine graduating at the time of 9/11 ?How can you foresee that? I bet there was a few pilot bankruptcies after that -without a doubt. The problem with flying is it's very expensive and nobody want's to pay for it , especially airlines. You have to borrow a lot of money ( a mortgage in some places in the UK) and you have to earn good money to pay it back. Unfortunately, the good pay doesn't arrive that quickly - it takes agood few years - even at BA (cost of type rating taken out of salary).
The Bankruptcy may not even be given - the OR could inform the judge at a later date that the potential bankruptcy is capable of paying the debt back.
I personally had no money what so ever from any inheritance. In fact, I have been working 2 jobs for the last 4years, putting in on average 84 hours per week (2x12hour shifts on Sat & Sun). So I can complete my training.
However, this thread is not about "how much you had to work in crap jobs to become apilot" but how to solve a financial problem. Just like other problems, eg, Gambling, Alcoholism and drug abuse. I cannot personnaly see how people get in these messes but people do.
However, there are ways for people to solve these. Bankruptcy is one of them.
Getting into debt is exceptionally easy. It can effect the well off (Queen Mum was reportedly £3million in debt when she left us!).
Getting addicted drugs/alcoholism is one I don't understand either but the NHS spends Billions in helping these people (I pay tax).Would you deny methodone (sp?) for a drug addict?
Sometimes people just need a little help.
Debt can be just as destructive as all the above problems but in this society - we ridicule/penalis these people. People kill themselves over debt. I had a few clients that never turned upto meetings. We live a society, every 30 seconds on TV and Radio, there advert flogging loans, debt busting loans, financial products. Even if you switch the TV off they're coming thru the letter box. I bet when you logged on - you where bombarded with adverts from some cheap loan company!!
You also stated that on a pilots salary it is quite repayable. That depends where you started from and what job you get.
I looked on www.ppjn.com before my post. At regionals starting salary is around about 18000 to 24000. If you are lucky to get to Ryan Air it's £8000 in your first year. Yes, these are basics but inc. flight pay it's an extra £400 per month take home.
If your based in the SE, rent will £800 minimum. Please don't even mention Mortgages - if you owe £40000. earn £18000. Do you think anybody in there right mind would lend you money for a flat? I know some people do the old magic "Self Certification" to get a Mortgage - which is actually Fraud, if you over state your income.
Sorry, to jump down your throat.
Consider this from your argument. If a Doctor ( why do we always use Doctors?) had to declare themselves bankrupt would you like them to be struck off? They may be very good at their job. Unfortunately, they had to pay their way thru medical school, didn't get that job the medical school gave an example of (sound familiar ?Oat?).Had to take some under paid job in an extremely expensive city (but it's a start).Living expenses are only just met by Income and that's without financing her debt.
As you will no doubt already of discovered in life there are winners and losers.Sometimes, everything goes to plan (smashing) but sometimes no matter how hard you try - it goes completely wrong.
I know, Dave, that this issue makes you angry. I get wound up over things too. However, in matters of this nature you should keep an open mind. One day you may need some help and advice.
Hope things keep good for you.
Twittwoo!!
I can see where your coming from.
Unfortunately, I don't think tehreceiver2004 is taking this as an easy way out.
From my post, you will read, that you have to "substanciate" that you have tried your best to agree some type of arrangement with a creditor/creditors before declaring Bankruptcy.If you get credit without any intention of paying it back that's a Criminal Act , thus say goodbye to your pilot career. However, it can so easily go wrong. Imagine graduating at the time of 9/11 ?How can you foresee that? I bet there was a few pilot bankruptcies after that -without a doubt. The problem with flying is it's very expensive and nobody want's to pay for it , especially airlines. You have to borrow a lot of money ( a mortgage in some places in the UK) and you have to earn good money to pay it back. Unfortunately, the good pay doesn't arrive that quickly - it takes agood few years - even at BA (cost of type rating taken out of salary).
The Bankruptcy may not even be given - the OR could inform the judge at a later date that the potential bankruptcy is capable of paying the debt back.
I personally had no money what so ever from any inheritance. In fact, I have been working 2 jobs for the last 4years, putting in on average 84 hours per week (2x12hour shifts on Sat & Sun). So I can complete my training.
However, this thread is not about "how much you had to work in crap jobs to become apilot" but how to solve a financial problem. Just like other problems, eg, Gambling, Alcoholism and drug abuse. I cannot personnaly see how people get in these messes but people do.
However, there are ways for people to solve these. Bankruptcy is one of them.
Getting into debt is exceptionally easy. It can effect the well off (Queen Mum was reportedly £3million in debt when she left us!).
Getting addicted drugs/alcoholism is one I don't understand either but the NHS spends Billions in helping these people (I pay tax).Would you deny methodone (sp?) for a drug addict?
Sometimes people just need a little help.
Debt can be just as destructive as all the above problems but in this society - we ridicule/penalis these people. People kill themselves over debt. I had a few clients that never turned upto meetings. We live a society, every 30 seconds on TV and Radio, there advert flogging loans, debt busting loans, financial products. Even if you switch the TV off they're coming thru the letter box. I bet when you logged on - you where bombarded with adverts from some cheap loan company!!
You also stated that on a pilots salary it is quite repayable. That depends where you started from and what job you get.
I looked on www.ppjn.com before my post. At regionals starting salary is around about 18000 to 24000. If you are lucky to get to Ryan Air it's £8000 in your first year. Yes, these are basics but inc. flight pay it's an extra £400 per month take home.
If your based in the SE, rent will £800 minimum. Please don't even mention Mortgages - if you owe £40000. earn £18000. Do you think anybody in there right mind would lend you money for a flat? I know some people do the old magic "Self Certification" to get a Mortgage - which is actually Fraud, if you over state your income.
Sorry, to jump down your throat.
Consider this from your argument. If a Doctor ( why do we always use Doctors?) had to declare themselves bankrupt would you like them to be struck off? They may be very good at their job. Unfortunately, they had to pay their way thru medical school, didn't get that job the medical school gave an example of (sound familiar ?Oat?).Had to take some under paid job in an extremely expensive city (but it's a start).Living expenses are only just met by Income and that's without financing her debt.
As you will no doubt already of discovered in life there are winners and losers.Sometimes, everything goes to plan (smashing) but sometimes no matter how hard you try - it goes completely wrong.
I know, Dave, that this issue makes you angry. I get wound up over things too. However, in matters of this nature you should keep an open mind. One day you may need some help and advice.
Hope things keep good for you.
Twittwoo!!
Excellent posting PILOTOWL - we owe you a debt of thanks for taking such time to offer such insight, many many thanks.
If you want the debtline number included on a sticky then that can be done.
Cheers
WWW
If you want the debtline number included on a sticky then that can be done.
Cheers
WWW
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START RANT
This is the most depressing thread I have read on Pprune.
I feel sorry for those that have genuinely got into financial difficulty but some of the posts on here I believe are just irresponsible and downright selfish.
Pilots moan and b*tch about things such as HSBC withdrawing their professional studies loan to modular pilots and then you look at a thread like this where there are people actively encourgaging people to borrow and then declared themselves bankrupt to avoid living up to their responsiblities!
By taking the "oh I'll just declare myself bankrupt" route you are playing your own part in continually raising the barriers to entry and associated costs of pilot training... and then you just moan about the state of the aviation training industry.... can't you see the hypocrisy in that??
Declaring yourself bankrupt should be a LAST resort not a easy way out of shirking your responsibilities.... yes if you take out £50k of debt YOU are responsible for it.... fine if you are completely wiped out financially consider it as a last resort but taking a loan out with the intention of never repaying it you are no better than your average criminal.
This solidarity and telling each other "its okay to go bankrupt it doesn't really matter" is bonkers and damaging to those that set off down the long and expensive route to an fATPL after you
RANT OVER
This is the most depressing thread I have read on Pprune.
I feel sorry for those that have genuinely got into financial difficulty but some of the posts on here I believe are just irresponsible and downright selfish.
Pilots moan and b*tch about things such as HSBC withdrawing their professional studies loan to modular pilots and then you look at a thread like this where there are people actively encourgaging people to borrow and then declared themselves bankrupt to avoid living up to their responsiblities!
By taking the "oh I'll just declare myself bankrupt" route you are playing your own part in continually raising the barriers to entry and associated costs of pilot training... and then you just moan about the state of the aviation training industry.... can't you see the hypocrisy in that??
Declaring yourself bankrupt should be a LAST resort not a easy way out of shirking your responsibilities.... yes if you take out £50k of debt YOU are responsible for it.... fine if you are completely wiped out financially consider it as a last resort but taking a loan out with the intention of never repaying it you are no better than your average criminal.
This solidarity and telling each other "its okay to go bankrupt it doesn't really matter" is bonkers and damaging to those that set off down the long and expensive route to an fATPL after you
RANT OVER
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Grass Stripper,
Thanks for your comments.
I don't think that the debt situation in this country is an exclusive domain of pilot training.
Anybody considering going to University IMHO is down right foolish. Imagine getting into debt with no guarentee of a job.
Did you see the news a few weeks ago about unemployed Doctors?
Imagine being in that position. More or less the same amount of debt as a student pilot.
The problem with our industry are two fold:
1 There is a up coming pilot shortage but the airlines won't admit it ( incase of industrial action)
2 Airlines don't want to pay for anything (everything low cost inc.us).
Most airlines want graduates (20,000) plus OAT Intergrated (63,000) and type (16,000). Grand total 99,000 !!!
So I can only predict that the debt/bankruptcy situation will only get worse, just like the rest of the country - Trillion Pounds!!
I would like to knowwhat BALPA's view on this is. There is an article in the Log this month but it doesn't say What They're doing about it.
Sorry, it is so depressing but I think we should face facts.
www. "we owe you a debt of gratitude" - no pun intended !
Is it possible to have a Finance sticky rather than debtline sticky. Debtline are very good they deal with everything not just Bankruptcy, but budgeting, dealing with credit agencies etc.
May be lenders for flight training could be put on too.
Thanks once again.
Sorry, forgot TWIT-TWOO !!!
Thanks for your comments.
I don't think that the debt situation in this country is an exclusive domain of pilot training.
Anybody considering going to University IMHO is down right foolish. Imagine getting into debt with no guarentee of a job.
Did you see the news a few weeks ago about unemployed Doctors?
Imagine being in that position. More or less the same amount of debt as a student pilot.
The problem with our industry are two fold:
1 There is a up coming pilot shortage but the airlines won't admit it ( incase of industrial action)
2 Airlines don't want to pay for anything (everything low cost inc.us).
Most airlines want graduates (20,000) plus OAT Intergrated (63,000) and type (16,000). Grand total 99,000 !!!
So I can only predict that the debt/bankruptcy situation will only get worse, just like the rest of the country - Trillion Pounds!!
I would like to knowwhat BALPA's view on this is. There is an article in the Log this month but it doesn't say What They're doing about it.
Sorry, it is so depressing but I think we should face facts.
www. "we owe you a debt of gratitude" - no pun intended !
Is it possible to have a Finance sticky rather than debtline sticky. Debtline are very good they deal with everything not just Bankruptcy, but budgeting, dealing with credit agencies etc.
May be lenders for flight training could be put on too.
Thanks once again.
Sorry, forgot TWIT-TWOO !!!
Last edited by PILOTOWL; 28th Oct 2005 at 10:35.
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It is a shame that in today's society we have young people, under 30, prepared to borrow what ever they can, where ever they can to fund training for aviation or otherwise.
I am 35, I had to wait until I was 33 before I was able to afford to train. I used to work in car sales and have always wanted to be a pilot. So I saved like hell and worked 60 hour weeks for years. Even then we had to sell our home and downsize. Now here I am two years later, I have finished. I am still going to work, at weekends in the dealer I used to be with. I do not regret this one bit, but I waited until I could afford to do this with the minimum impact in my life.
The problem I see is this everybody wants it now, they are not prepared to wait, well nobody said life is fair.
For anybody who is in real danger of bancruptcy,I do feel for you and hope you can sort it out, but just borrowing money as you are 18 or 21 because you cannot wait is madness.
I am 35, I had to wait until I was 33 before I was able to afford to train. I used to work in car sales and have always wanted to be a pilot. So I saved like hell and worked 60 hour weeks for years. Even then we had to sell our home and downsize. Now here I am two years later, I have finished. I am still going to work, at weekends in the dealer I used to be with. I do not regret this one bit, but I waited until I could afford to do this with the minimum impact in my life.
The problem I see is this everybody wants it now, they are not prepared to wait, well nobody said life is fair.
For anybody who is in real danger of bancruptcy,I do feel for you and hope you can sort it out, but just borrowing money as you are 18 or 21 because you cannot wait is madness.
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Frank,
Totally agree with you. Unfortunately, How many times have you seen pilot sponsorship for the old and bold (like ourselves). Never.
Everyone I've seen in the last few months states that you have to be under 25. How many graduates (airlines like these) have the lump sum without having to borrow.
I have just read "the Log" (oct/nov)
Professional pilot training - What is the future? (page 17)
by Peter Moxham
I quote " The cost of obtaininga "frozen" ATPL has always been high. Intergrated courses cost in the region of 75,000 and more if you cost in the loss of earnings for the 15months under training. It has already become probably the most expensive career to embark upon and is now set to increase yet more. There is no government funding and banks are totally unwilling to loan unsecured amounts sufficient to meet these requirements, THUS IT IS ALREADY NOT A CASE OF QUALITY BUT WHOEVER HAS THE MONEY. "
page 18
" A few earn over-large sums but the MAJORITY of new entrants to-day effectively subsidise their own employment "
The posters on this thread, who think that people are taking Bankruptcy as an easy option. Should think again. If this is from BALPA it is definately a problem. May be those who are being dismissive are in self denial?
It is definately about time BALPA stuck it's neck out.
TWIT-TWOO
Totally agree with you. Unfortunately, How many times have you seen pilot sponsorship for the old and bold (like ourselves). Never.
Everyone I've seen in the last few months states that you have to be under 25. How many graduates (airlines like these) have the lump sum without having to borrow.
I have just read "the Log" (oct/nov)
Professional pilot training - What is the future? (page 17)
by Peter Moxham
I quote " The cost of obtaininga "frozen" ATPL has always been high. Intergrated courses cost in the region of 75,000 and more if you cost in the loss of earnings for the 15months under training. It has already become probably the most expensive career to embark upon and is now set to increase yet more. There is no government funding and banks are totally unwilling to loan unsecured amounts sufficient to meet these requirements, THUS IT IS ALREADY NOT A CASE OF QUALITY BUT WHOEVER HAS THE MONEY. "
page 18
" A few earn over-large sums but the MAJORITY of new entrants to-day effectively subsidise their own employment "
The posters on this thread, who think that people are taking Bankruptcy as an easy option. Should think again. If this is from BALPA it is definately a problem. May be those who are being dismissive are in self denial?
It is definately about time BALPA stuck it's neck out.
TWIT-TWOO
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Scroggs I read and fully understood pilot owls post... he clearly has a lot of valuable things to contribute to the debate.... the thing that got my back up was the somewhat fillipant attitude towards bankruptcy that some other people seemed to be suggesting as an easy cure to all evils.
I think that Frank F has hit the nail on the head.... I am in the same boat as him and have worked bloomin' hard to avoid getting into debt whilst training... and then I see the "oh just get a big loan and then go bankrupt" attitude one or two people were alluding to as an acceptable approach... that does p*ss me off
From what I have seen and read in my (limited) experience many people straight out of school at the age of 18 have very little idea of the true value of money with many having never worked a full day in their lives. As a result I believe not enough thought is given to the consequences of getting yourself possibly £50-70k in debt with no guarantee of a job (a stance Pilotowl agrees with in his subsequent post).
In that context perhaps what would be more useful as a "sticky" would be a simple caculation showing the interest payments on a £50-70k of loan vs likely income in your first fews years as a junior first officer (if you are lucky enough to get a job).... then compare that to the cost of maintaining an acceptable standard of living (especially if you are then based in the south east).... hmmmm I did the calc and it was very enlightening
That may at least make 1 or 2 more people stop and think about the consequences of borrowing that amount of money and ending up as another person that unfortunately benefits from Pilotowls valuable insights
I think that Frank F has hit the nail on the head.... I am in the same boat as him and have worked bloomin' hard to avoid getting into debt whilst training... and then I see the "oh just get a big loan and then go bankrupt" attitude one or two people were alluding to as an acceptable approach... that does p*ss me off
From what I have seen and read in my (limited) experience many people straight out of school at the age of 18 have very little idea of the true value of money with many having never worked a full day in their lives. As a result I believe not enough thought is given to the consequences of getting yourself possibly £50-70k in debt with no guarantee of a job (a stance Pilotowl agrees with in his subsequent post).
In that context perhaps what would be more useful as a "sticky" would be a simple caculation showing the interest payments on a £50-70k of loan vs likely income in your first fews years as a junior first officer (if you are lucky enough to get a job).... then compare that to the cost of maintaining an acceptable standard of living (especially if you are then based in the south east).... hmmmm I did the calc and it was very enlightening
That may at least make 1 or 2 more people stop and think about the consequences of borrowing that amount of money and ending up as another person that unfortunately benefits from Pilotowls valuable insights
Last edited by Grass strip basher; 28th Oct 2005 at 12:55.
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GSB,
Thanks again for your post. At last some intelligent debate on PPrune!!
Yes, lot's flippant attitude to debt by the young but what can you expect with this "socialist" government advertising student debt as a "leg up" towards a fantastic career as an out reach worker.
I spoke to DFO about is ideal NEW pilot:
Age 23-24, graduate, intergrated student pilot, willing to fund own TR.
The main problem lies with the airlines. We are generally the same age (30-35) and we are already penalised. We have saved, grafted done rubbish jobs to keep ourselves on an even keel and we are told that we are too old!! We have probably another 30-35 years of flying in us!! This is ageism at it's worst!
I once went to the career service (Why?
) To find out about piloting. The character type it specified was someone who is, of sober character, does not undertake foolish risks, and is stable.
Now, if I was 23 years old, went down to my local HSBC asked for 75Grand. Would this fit the above job description?
It's absolutely laughable. I know OAT/CABair have all these wonderful schemes but they aren't the ones getting into huge debt. I came across OAT's forum the other day, the Big Chief there stated how wonderful this scheme was and stated that students could reasonably expect 31,000 minimum in their first year!! Where and who for? That figure may be the gross but it won't after stoppages, Tax/NI/ Type rating etc.
I know a few of the last BA sponsoship pilots - even after 5 years they're still paying it off. No choice either as it comes from there salary.
The airlines and FTO are to blame for this mess. If Lufty and KLM can still manage a proper sponsorship why can't the UK airlines.
Anyway, I'm digressing. So I'll leave it there.
TWIT-TWOO!!
Thanks again for your post. At last some intelligent debate on PPrune!!
Yes, lot's flippant attitude to debt by the young but what can you expect with this "socialist" government advertising student debt as a "leg up" towards a fantastic career as an out reach worker.
I spoke to DFO about is ideal NEW pilot:
Age 23-24, graduate, intergrated student pilot, willing to fund own TR.
The main problem lies with the airlines. We are generally the same age (30-35) and we are already penalised. We have saved, grafted done rubbish jobs to keep ourselves on an even keel and we are told that we are too old!! We have probably another 30-35 years of flying in us!! This is ageism at it's worst!
I once went to the career service (Why?
) To find out about piloting. The character type it specified was someone who is, of sober character, does not undertake foolish risks, and is stable.Now, if I was 23 years old, went down to my local HSBC asked for 75Grand. Would this fit the above job description?
It's absolutely laughable. I know OAT/CABair have all these wonderful schemes but they aren't the ones getting into huge debt. I came across OAT's forum the other day, the Big Chief there stated how wonderful this scheme was and stated that students could reasonably expect 31,000 minimum in their first year!! Where and who for? That figure may be the gross but it won't after stoppages, Tax/NI/ Type rating etc.
I know a few of the last BA sponsoship pilots - even after 5 years they're still paying it off. No choice either as it comes from there salary.
The airlines and FTO are to blame for this mess. If Lufty and KLM can still manage a proper sponsorship why can't the UK airlines.
Anyway, I'm digressing. So I'll leave it there.
TWIT-TWOO!!