Lady pilots in training?

[link4]

Hiya

Just wondering why there are not as many girls training to be pilots as men???

i mean hardly a job like boxing is it?

If so how many lady pilots or under training are there lurking these forums?

Any as young as me (18, btw as this point i shud point out i am male)

reason im asking this question is because i would like to know if there are any bias opions of lady pilots (considering there are so many of lady drivers)

Cheers guys n most importantly girls

[Rainboe]

I would like to know, though this isn't really the right forum (you see this is 'Rumours & News', and you are causing some poor moderator a troublesome few minutes moving it to the right place when you could have posted it there in the first place!), why there aren't as many female rubbish truck drivers as men- in fact I have never seen even one, or female bricklayers, dumper drivers, soldiers, road sweepers, Police, chefs, and many other jobs? Now don't get me wrong- I believe in equality, and the average female pilot is almost as good as the average male (that's just being a tad provocative), but it is unfair of the girlies to cherry pick only the best jobs for complete equality and quietly ignore the jobs they don't really want. There is no sexual discrimination allowed for selection of almost any job, so if there aren't the number of girlies applying to be pilots, it may suggest there is a deep rooted female aversion to reading maps and working big heavy machinery! (is anyone taking the bait yet?).

[Young Paul]

I suspect that there are various reasons that "ladies" aren't that bothered about a career in flying. Firstly, they generally don't desire to do things with powerful machinery, unlike "gentlemen" (!). Secondly, if they are looking for a job in which they will be taken seriously, they will probably go for one in which they won't be referred to as "ladies", or patronised, or have to deal with men who think they're God's gift to the opposite sex because they wear a uniform, or have to deal with the fair proportion of pilots who are only half-joking when they comment about "another empty kitchen" when they see a woman professional pilot (though I've noticed the same men tend to be those who have a marked bias for preferring working with female cabin crew over working with stewards). Thirdly, they may realise that the job will basically wipe out their desire to build and maintain relationships with ... well, anybody, really. Fourth, the fact that they aren't captivated by the machinery means their eyes are wide enough open to realise that if they are intelligent enough to fly aircraft for money, they are probably intelligent enough to make enough money doing something else better paid with a less serious effect on the rest of their life.

[HELOFAN]

Not such a dumb assed question

I think that like alot of professions, that flying is male dominated and although yes like anything it is illegal and imoral to discriminate , it happens though it is crap it still happens , you cant say it doesnt happen because that simply isnt true, it does.

There is certainly alot of "old boys/old shool" stigma mentality still attached to it.

Though I think its damn good to see changing, it is still something that is harder for women to crack.
Like the military ( I have served so can comment ) and operating heavy machinery , (can comment there too) is is though male dominated still has women proving their equal worth.

Infact as far as the heavy earthmoving equipment operating is concerned women are far more employable as they take care of the gear far better than the guys do with less bitching.

So to answer your question maybe its that not enough are seen or you may your not be looking but they are there and growing in number's and damn good to see too !!!!

My 2 cents.


It is easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission !!!!

[scroggs]

I was involved in the training of the first female pilots and navigators in the RAF several years ago. While we found that there was essentially no difference in innate ability between women and men, there were significant differences in mechanical experience and spatial awareness.

The lack of mechanical experience was simply down to not having played as much with Meccano, Lego, or taking bicycles apart as a kid, as the boys had. We found that we were having to explain basic mechanical principles much more frequently with women than with men. Even though this was 17 years ago (and the childhood that lacked this experience was thus 30-odd years ago), this behaviour is still apparent. Courses were changed to allow for this, and it hasn't been a major problem since as far as I'm aware.

Spatial awareness is an issue which won't go away, as it appears to be a fundamental difference between women and men. It's perhaps less critical in the civilian environment than the military, but it is a fact that the proportion of women that posess the minimum required spatial awareness is considerably less than that of men.

However, a far larger problem is the relative lack of women who wish to enter this profession. You can't increase the numbers of women in flight decks if they don't want to do the job! My company, Virgin, is perceived as a foward-looking, enlightened employer, but the proportion of applicants who are female has, if anything, dropped over the last few years. It's possible that there is a general perception that this is an old-fashioned misogynistic profession, but I don't understand why that perception should have got stronger in recent years! Nor is it obvious what current evidence there is to support such a perception.

It seems to me that this is, for whatever reason, a career that is less attractive to women than others are. Whether it's the mechanical aspect of it, a perception of misogyny, or a general feeling of lack of aptitude ("oh, I could never do that"), it's impossible to say, but the applicants aren't out there - and you can't make them want to do this!

While you're trying to work this dilemma out, perhaps you could explain to me why there are almost no male teachers any more (apart from my brother)?

Scroggs

[Whirlygig]

The Distaff Point of View

Secondly, if they are looking for a job in which they will be taken seriously, they will probably go for one in which they won't be referred to as "ladies", or patronised

Thank you for writing that Young Paul; if I had done I would probably have been lambasted for not being able to take the banter (which most of you should know I am perfectly capable of!!).

You're unlikely to get many responses from non-aviation women as there are not that many who frequent these pages! But most of you guys, in your own inimitable way, have got it right.

1. Women are more likely to have difficulty with spatial awareness. However, they are less likely to bring an ego into the cockpit.
2. They are often brought up differently to boys and are not encouraged towards mechanical things.
3. Old boy network is disappearing thankfully.

I have not experienced any discrimination in the helicopter world but then female heli pilots (of whom I know a few) are still too much of a novelty. Normally we are treated with great care while the blokes get over the surprise.

However, there are many women (of whom I am not one) whose main wish is to have children. Flying is not really conducive to that although it can and has been done but only by women who are particularly determined to have career and family.

I will maintain (although some women may disagree) that it's more nature rather than nurture. There are not many women pilots because they just don't want to do it. It doesn't interest them anymore than it would interest most blokes to become, say, a secretary!!

There are general differences between the male and female brain which research is starting to understand more and more but these differences are not hard and fast rules and so you cannot assume that because someone of one gender can or can't do something, that that applies to all members of that gender.

Just to continue with the sweeping generalisations - women tend to be either very good or absolutely hopeless at these sorts of tasks (e.g. flying). Blokes on the other hand will cluster much more around the average!

Scroggs - male teachers.

1. Teaching has lost the professional status it once had whereby a teacher was considered on a par with doctors, lawyers etc.
2. Teachers' salaries are so pathetic that no bloke who wants to support a wife and child(ren) can afford to do so on those wages.
3. Male teachers are so bloddy petrified these days of having any "allegations" made against them.

Does that help?

Cheers

Whirls

PS Link4 - I'm old enough to be yer mother!!

[scroggs]

Thanks for that, Whirly. I agree with pretty much everything you said - I forgot to mention in my last post that this profession is one of the worst you can enter if you'd like to maintain a stable family life, and that may be becoming understood amongst those still in the 'just looking' stage. In my experience, women at 18-23 are far more long-term minded than men of the same age, and the effect on a potential family life is more likely to discourage women than men. I wish I'd understood that back then!

There is much to be said for the nature vs nurture thing. As I'm sure we've all noticed in sportswomen, for instance, there have always been those that buck the trend and will give the lie to their gender stereotypes. That doesn't mean that the stereotypes are wrong; it just means that they are what they are: generalisations. Generalisations can never be applied to individuals, but they can (if they are well-founded) fairly reliably be applied to populations.

The 'nurture' bit can be overcome, as we found. Gaps in education and experience are fairly easy to fill in young people and, as long as the 'nature' is there, anyone can be taught to fly. Whether their subsequent experiences satisfy their ambitions, however, is another matter! I wish there were more women in this field, but it seems it's not to be.

As for the teacher question, it was really rhetorical - and to point out that the gender employment imbalance can work the other way.

Scroggs

[pipergirl]

Really interesting discussion-

I wholeheartedly agree with Whirlygig-
girls simply do not want to do it, but I think that is down to the attitude towards the differences in boys and girls from a young age..boys are encouraged to play with lego etc..and the girls are not..they are given dolls and all that jazz
Girls and boys are categorised from a young age.
Girs play with dolls and prams and other girly things and the boys play with the more manly things cars, footballs, lego etc..

I think girls from a young age, are not given the same educational oppurtunities as the boys. In my school, there were no mechanical subjects(eg mechanical drawing etc) and the places in the chemistry and physics classes were very limited and were restricted to a class of something ridiculous like 10 per class (and there were only two classes).
I also think they do not get the same encouragement to get into the more scientific or mechanical areas when they leave school.

One thing that put me off flying as a career was a visit to my careers guidance teacher when I was 13..When i asked her what subjects should I look at taking for my leaving certificate(A-Levels) that would help me when I go to train as a pilot when i leave school. She told me to "get a life and get real"-yes, she really did tell me that! and that "that is a profession for responsible people"..I was only 13!!!lol
I was completely put off a career that I always dreamed of doing.

So, when I finished school, I went to uni then went to work and was doing something that I didn't want to do...I just thought "f##$ it" why shouldn't I give it a go and I got stuck in...and here i am still working at it

anyway that's my two cents worth!

[scroggs]

Interesting post, pipergirl.

The toys that children are given to play with when very young is not a plot to reinforce gender stereotypes, though you may think so! Several studies over the last few years have shown that female children, when given a choice, will generally gravitate towards toys that allow them to express a caring nature, and boys will (equally generally) gravitate towards toys that allow them to construct things - or destroy them! My own experience with my own two children, who were never force-fed any kinds of toys, suggests to me that these findings are correct.

Education in school is a different matter. I can well remember discrimination by sex for certain subjects. As my formal education ceased over 30 years ago, I must admit I am surprised to hear you suggest that it still goes on. I can't remember any young women I've met over the last few years mentioning anything similar - and I would be incensed if anyone suggested my daughter could not take any subject simply because of her sex!

Careers 'officers' are a different matter - I'm sure you will find many, many men here who were told similar rubbish by ignorant advisors who had no idea of what they spoke. I'm afraid that situation is still prevalent in many schools. It's often easier to put children off a given profession than to do some research and give them good advice - and this profession is among the more difficult to get information on, even if you want to. That, after all, is why Wannabes is here!

Scroggs

[Leftpedal]

Going completely off thread here, but I remember a comedian (can't remember who) who, when asked by his careers teacher what he wanted to do for a living, replied earnestly, "become a careers teacher sir!".
After a long suspicious pause the teacher let him go and wrote "comedian" in the child's file.

[CM9]

Well I have recently got my wings and am in the conundrum of whether to take my private licence to the next level. Many women I have come to know tend to be more responsible and realistically minded than men their age. So when they are young enough to throw caution to the wind they usually don't have the money to throw with the caution.

aka, you are young and think it would be cool to fly but can't afford it.

Then when you have built up reserves and the option of flying becomes a possibility biology kicks in, as part of some maternal emotion that comes with your mid twenties. The idea of family and kids and being a good mother start to rise in your mind.

Do I really want to invest the money in a career that will take me away from my beloved husband and my children for days at a time? Could I have passion for flying while taking money from education policies to pay for it?

Is it worth investing so much in a career I might want to give up when I have kids?

I think these are some of the thoughts that keep women out of flying and other selfish careers. Men like their fathers think that a home and family run without them and so have no problem leaving for days.

Hard choices in life

CM9

[Whirlygig]

Sorry pipergirl, from what you've written, you disagree with me!!

I believe, as does Scroggs, that it's nature, not nuture.

I'm old enough (easily) to have an 18 year old son (as I mentioned above) and was at school and uni in early 80s. I found NO discrimination with girls and science (and I have a degree in Nuclear Physics). So either you are quite a bit older or went to a very backward-looking school!

When I was a child, my mother desperately wanted me to play with dolls and wear pretty dresses. Kicking and screaming was I if I had to wear a frock. I ignored my dolls; I wanted Lego and Meccano but my parents couldn't afford it. Apparently when I was 5, I asked my dad how a car worked. He used to work for Rootes (that'll take yer back eh Scroggs?) so explained it in terms of suck squeeze bang blow (no doubt he thought that was hysterical!).

That was nature, not nuture. I was (still am) a "not-very-common" case. I think an equilibrium will be reached though whereby all women who want to become pilots, can do so and those who don't, don't. Then we'll see the true picture. At best, I reckon it'll be around 10% or less.

Cheers

Whirls

[pipergirl]

2. They are often brought up differently to boys and are not encouraged towards mechanical things.

that was the point that i picked up on and personally, had experience of when I was growing up.
I stated that I agreed with you and the point that women simply do not want to get into this career and I expanded on why i believe that too.
Maybe I just did not make myself clear.

I am considerably younger than you and left the school system a few years ago. I attended a convent school in Ireland...so, yes it was a considerably backward school in many respects!!

[Whirlygig]

attended a convent school in Ireland.

Yup, that'll be it then!!

I also have experience of Irish nuns (and they are strange creatures) so I suspect they were just gearing you up for marriage and procreation.

But, conversely, it was shown in the UK that girls who attended girls' schools (when they existed in the state system) faired better in the sciences than girls who went to mixed schools.
Maybe teacher bias towards boys and girls not being taken seriously? Maybe the boys themselves being more pushy in getting the teacher's attention and help. Maybe old stereotypes coming through? I don't know since I did well in science at a state school but interesting and curious results nevertheless.

I also suspect that the problem is less with the way parents bring up their sons and daughters but possibly a peer pressure as well from the grandparents' generation.

But, at the end of the day, in the final analysis, generally-speaking, on the whole, girls just don't want to do it. I know many of my friends think I'm nuts. Why? they want to know. What's so fascinating? £300 per hour? You could buy a pair of Jimmy Choos for that! And that, guys, is the difference between me and my best friend!!

Cheers

Whirls

[Cloud 99]

Totally agree with everything that has been said so far.

I say to a female friend
"I'm going flying a the weekend to **** would you like to come?" The answer
"flying yeah right, you'll not catch me near an aeroplane for fun, I have to be forced to go on holiday in one.

I say to a male friend
"Im going flying at the weekend to **** would you like to come?" The answer
"flying, oh wow where are we going, how long will that take how big is the plane/engine/wing" (or anything else along those lines)


It's very much a case of I know very few women who are truely interested, however for most men its a dream they've had since they were knee high to a grasshopper!

As for nature vs nurture, I would say a bit of both. Like whirly I was into climbing, building, destroying and have never had a doll in my life. Now however I'm very much female and love to get spoiled, dressed up, go dancing etc and I do have that caring mothering attitude aswell. However my parents and teachers never really forced me either way-and as for my careers advisor, being a pilot himself he was more than pleased to know what I was going into.

Another big point in this is that in my opinion it is easier for a woman to get a job/opportunity than it is for a man because we are a novelty, we can bring some balance that "just another guy" couldn't. No bearing on "actual" skills-that depends on the individual-but more on perspective.


99.

[scroggs]

Well, it's nice to know that we have a number of women reading this forum who feel able to stand up and be counted! I wonder if Link4 feels his question's been answered?

Scroggs

[distaff_beancounter]

The Distaff Point of View

Well I am mostly in agreement with Scroggs and Whirlygig on this thread.

Thankfully, things have settled down since those heady days of "Womens' Lib" when even the most liberated women would not have dared to suggest that women and men were not equal in all respects! So sensible discussion is now allowed.

Modern reseach seems to indicate that there are differences that arise from nature, such as spatial awareness, or ability to multi-task. But I guess that there is a wide range of these supposedly, male or female traits within each sex. So perhaps 70% of men have good spatial awareness, but only 20% of women. The reverse may be true for communications and multi-tasking. So most women have no problem talking on the radio while flying, but have to concentrate, more than a man, while flying an instrument approach.

If this is correct then there will always be fewer women who want to be pilots, but more of them who want to be nurses.

At the risk of being shot down, I do think that some recent sex descrimination cases have gone too far. Some women seem to demand everything to suit their own ideas of mixing a career with child rearing. These women are not prepared to make the sacrifices that men made for a career in flying. They may win their own cases but create as much resentment amongst other women as they do men and make employers think twice about employing young women. (Leaves rapidly and hides!)

One thing that I have noticed when flying light aircraft in VMC is the preferred method of navigation . Most women seem to like reading the chart and identifying landmarks, while the fellas just want to make the whole thing boring by only using the GPS!

[redsnail]

Right, just back from an entertaining tour to Russia and other bits of Europe.
Just logged the shortest airborne time in the lil jet. 8 min.

We can argue Nature v Nuture till the cows come home and the pub's shut. Who's right? Probably elements of both.
I'm a died in the wool tomboy with a fascination with all things mechanical. (I need to be, I own a Ducati) but don't have a "male" brain. (ie rubbish at maths - allowance calcs excepted)

Playing with dolls was boring to me and I'd rather climb a tree or beat up my brother. ( he deserved it, don't pity him) I was riding minibikes before I could drive and so on.
I was very lucky in my parents never forced me to do girly stuff but the option was always there to learn to knit. Hmm. Mum gave up in despair when I insisted on wearing gym boots with a dress.

Eventually got into this flying lark because it seemed like a good idea at the time. I can honestly say I was shown no favours for being a girl. I had to get my hands dirty changing engines and washing aircraft. (Didn't mind either.) Bush flying in the Kimberley soon makes you aware that Nature doesn't give a toss what gender you are, you just have to be smart.

Many employers in outback Oz that have tourist operations do hire women because they are less brutal with the machines and less likely to take testosterone inspired risks. Situational awareness, customer relations isn't gender specific but sometimes women can succeed where a bloke may fail. Communication skills here?

Checkboard (pilot) came up with an idea as to why women don't progress beyond PPL stage if they even get there. A male instructor will talk to a male pilot about flying options, the industry, how things work and so on even after the lesson has finished. He admitted that this often was not the case with female students. They got the male instructor's attention during the lesson but after it was completed, the male-female thing kicked in and often the talk was just social. So the female student isn't getting all the industry stuff that the male student automatically gets.

Checkboard often admires my multiskilling abilities plus my apparent ability to suss out situations intuitively. I admire his scientific and mathermatical brain and incredible memory. He still gets lost driving though.

To me there's no advantage to either gender. Both have inate skills that are valued in today's multi crew environment. Any so called gender deficiencies can be sorted with appropriate training.

So there you have it. Ramblings from someone who's been up since 4am.

[Alex Whittingham]

About 10% of my customers are women. My wife is a pilot as are three of my ex-girlfriends. Oh my gosh, there's a pattern there....

In groundschool their abilities range from the brightest to the slowest, just like the blokes. There's no discernable difference. They do have to put up with extra banter, but mostly they give as well as they they take.

My two penny worth - Female pilots generally don't take their ego on the flight deck (on the button, Whirly) and by their presence tend to civilise what can, at times, be a bit of a testosterone-loaded environment. The ones I have flown with can't navigate their way out of a paper bag but have generally higher levels of discipline than their male counterparts and are mechanically very competent pilots.

[scroggs]

I have to pretty much agree with Redders and Alex, thiugh I should poit out that, like the Australian rugby and cricket teams, Redders is an amateur drinker and thus her opinion is suspect! (That is going to cost me. Oh boy, that is going to cost me!)

Seriously, the generalisations are interesting and, over a long period, verifiable, but you can only take individuals on their own merits.

Scroggs