CPL - ATPL ... say what?
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CPL - ATPL ... say what?
I've been reading around and it's now got me a bit more confused than I was before. 
I have not done any training whatsoever yet. But let's make up a situation...
I have a PPL and as I understand it I can now do my ATPL groundschool.
So now If I've done all the ATPL exams does this mean I don't need to do any CPL exams? But where does this leave the CPL and the CPL licence?
Obviously a lot more questions to come depending on the answers I get, so thanks for your help.
T
I have not done any training whatsoever yet. But let's make up a situation...
I have a PPL and as I understand it I can now do my ATPL groundschool.
So now If I've done all the ATPL exams does this mean I don't need to do any CPL exams? But where does this leave the CPL and the CPL licence?
Obviously a lot more questions to come depending on the answers I get, so thanks for your help.
T
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You can sit ATPL exams in lieu of CPL exams - most generally do as the ATPL theory also covers IR theory.
Not only do you need passes in CPL or ATPL theory exams in order to get your CPL, but you also need 200 hours (100 of which PIC) and to have gone through the CPL flying curriculum (25 hours minimum) and passed a CPL flight test.
Not only do you need passes in CPL or ATPL theory exams in order to get your CPL, but you also need 200 hours (100 of which PIC) and to have gone through the CPL flying curriculum (25 hours minimum) and passed a CPL flight test.
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I had the exact same query a few months ago and got the following definitive reply from those nice people who got me through the ATPL GS.
From JAR FCL 1:
Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.160 & 1.165(a)(4) CPL(A) modular course
(See JAR–FCL 1.125(c)) (See JAR–FCL 1.160, 1.165 & 1.170) (See Appendix 1 and 2 to JAR–FCL 1.170) (See AMC FCL 1.160 & 1.165(a)(4)) (See Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.470) (See IEM-FCL 1.170)
1. The aim of the CPL(A) modular course is to train PPL(A) holders to the level of proficiency necessary for the issue of a CPL(A).
2. (a) Before commencing a CPL(A) modular course an applicant shall be the holder of a PPL(A) issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1;
(b) Before commencing the flight training an applicant shall:
(i) have completed 150 hours flight time as a pilot; and
(ii) have complied with JAR–FCL 1.225 and 1.240 if a multi-engine aeroplane is to be used on the skill test.
In english, what it all boils down to is that you need 150 hours total. However, individual FTO's are allowed to insist that of those 150hrs, a number of them must be P1 - this is not a JAR requirement. I guess its to protect the aircraft and instructor's of the FTO who dont want to fly with students who have low P1 hours. The school I am with looked for 70 P1 while others look for 100. I havent come across anyone who will take you with less than 70. Everything else said above is accurate - you can sit the skills test with less than 200/100 but you cant get license issue until you do.
From JAR FCL 1:
Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.160 & 1.165(a)(4) CPL(A) modular course
(See JAR–FCL 1.125(c)) (See JAR–FCL 1.160, 1.165 & 1.170) (See Appendix 1 and 2 to JAR–FCL 1.170) (See AMC FCL 1.160 & 1.165(a)(4)) (See Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.470) (See IEM-FCL 1.170)
1. The aim of the CPL(A) modular course is to train PPL(A) holders to the level of proficiency necessary for the issue of a CPL(A).
2. (a) Before commencing a CPL(A) modular course an applicant shall be the holder of a PPL(A) issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1;
(b) Before commencing the flight training an applicant shall:
(i) have completed 150 hours flight time as a pilot; and
(ii) have complied with JAR–FCL 1.225 and 1.240 if a multi-engine aeroplane is to be used on the skill test.
In english, what it all boils down to is that you need 150 hours total. However, individual FTO's are allowed to insist that of those 150hrs, a number of them must be P1 - this is not a JAR requirement. I guess its to protect the aircraft and instructor's of the FTO who dont want to fly with students who have low P1 hours. The school I am with looked for 70 P1 while others look for 100. I havent come across anyone who will take you with less than 70. Everything else said above is accurate - you can sit the skills test with less than 200/100 but you cant get license issue until you do.
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So is it ok to say, I can sit the ATPL exams in lieu of the CPL ones and in the meanwhile attain hours to start CPL training? And eventual License issue?
Thanks for the insight so far.
Thanks for the insight so far.
Effectively, yes.
All that happens is that the ATPL exams replace the CPL *and* IR exams. Can save a fair bit of examination bother & cost.
You will still be issued a CPL (not an ATPL as some seem to think) when you finish your training & pass the flight test. Once you've gained the required minimum experience sometime later in your flying career you can then apply to be granted an ATPL.
All that happens is that the ATPL exams replace the CPL *and* IR exams. Can save a fair bit of examination bother & cost.
You will still be issued a CPL (not an ATPL as some seem to think) when you finish your training & pass the flight test. Once you've gained the required minimum experience sometime later in your flying career you can then apply to be granted an ATPL.
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I'l give you an example of what I am doing - which is a fairly common route.
I've got my PPL ( had it already for a couple of years)
First step - GET A CLASS 1 MEDICAL - if you fail this then theres no point spending a fortune on the training
I am currently building hours up to 150 (including 100P1) and doing the ATPL exams, distance learning - all part time.
I'm planning that both these 'events' i.e the exams and 150 hours complete at about the same time, and then I start the CPL training - 25 hours + test.
After this is the multi and IR
I've got my PPL ( had it already for a couple of years)
First step - GET A CLASS 1 MEDICAL - if you fail this then theres no point spending a fortune on the training
I am currently building hours up to 150 (including 100P1) and doing the ATPL exams, distance learning - all part time.
I'm planning that both these 'events' i.e the exams and 150 hours complete at about the same time, and then I start the CPL training - 25 hours + test.
After this is the multi and IR
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Thanks again for making things very clear!! Much appreciated.
Now this is a hook shot but .. if I do my training for example in the UK and get a JAA PPL. Can I go somewhere else and do hourbuilding in an aircraft without a G-xxxx registration?
I live in Oman and intend on doing hourbuilding in DXB while doing ATPL distance after I get my PPL obviously. Is it possible?
Now this is a hook shot but .. if I do my training for example in the UK and get a JAA PPL. Can I go somewhere else and do hourbuilding in an aircraft without a G-xxxx registration?
I live in Oman and intend on doing hourbuilding in DXB while doing ATPL distance after I get my PPL obviously. Is it possible?
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JAA and indeed the UK CAA (who will issue your licence if you train in the UK) do not prohibit you in flying aircraft registered in Oman.
However you will need to ensure the aviation authority in Oman will deem your JAA PPL to be valid for flight in aircraft registered under their authority.
I don't know the answer to that one so you will have to check with them.
However you will need to ensure the aviation authority in Oman will deem your JAA PPL to be valid for flight in aircraft registered under their authority.
I don't know the answer to that one so you will have to check with them.
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Just to add something, as I am in a similar situation at the moment.
If you do the ATPL exams and then the CPL flight test..... with the correct number of hours you will get your CPL.
I believe the problem occurs if you then don't continue on to do your ATPL within a year or so. As far as I am aware, you only have 3 years from passing the first ATPL ground exam to get your frozen ATPL?!?
Is this correct? If it is, and you don't intend to do the Multi/IR thing straight away, it may be a waste of time and money doing all of the ATPL ground exams.
Final question to the seasoned professionals, if you do the CPL grounds and gain a CPL, do you have to do all of the ATPL ground exams before embarking upon the rest of the flight training for the ATPL?
Thanks in advance
TBK
If you do the ATPL exams and then the CPL flight test..... with the correct number of hours you will get your CPL.
I believe the problem occurs if you then don't continue on to do your ATPL within a year or so. As far as I am aware, you only have 3 years from passing the first ATPL ground exam to get your frozen ATPL?!?
Is this correct? If it is, and you don't intend to do the Multi/IR thing straight away, it may be a waste of time and money doing all of the ATPL ground exams.
Final question to the seasoned professionals, if you do the CPL grounds and gain a CPL, do you have to do all of the ATPL ground exams before embarking upon the rest of the flight training for the ATPL?
Thanks in advance
TBK
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TBK,
Unfortunatley if you only have the CPL exams you would have to do all the ATPL exams to be able to gain an ATPL as at present there is no ATPL 'upgrade' course. You are right that you have three years from you last pass in the ATPL exams to gain a CPL and an IR, however most people do not find this too limiting.
Unfortunatley if you only have the CPL exams you would have to do all the ATPL exams to be able to gain an ATPL as at present there is no ATPL 'upgrade' course. You are right that you have three years from you last pass in the ATPL exams to gain a CPL and an IR, however most people do not find this too limiting.
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If you intend to take up flying as a career then I see little point in dong the CPL exams since they are not easy and comprise 90% of what you need for your ATPL exams. Sit the ATPLs straight off and save yourself alot of work in a year or so.
Even after gaining your CPL with the ATPL exams and an IR you will still only have a CPL...NOT an ATPL. Some call this a Frozen ATPL since when you have the required experience you can apply for the issue of an ATPL, there is no such license as a Frozen ATPL however.
Good luck!
Even after gaining your CPL with the ATPL exams and an IR you will still only have a CPL...NOT an ATPL. Some call this a Frozen ATPL since when you have the required experience you can apply for the issue of an ATPL, there is no such license as a Frozen ATPL however.
Good luck!
