Training in Spain
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PPRUNE Towers, I disagree with a lot of what you say but then I would - I am only an Instructor!!!!
Our department is run by peoplewith plebnty of experience in airliners!) and by and large the courses we provide are those that have been REQUESTED by the airlines, not forced upon them by us.
It was a customer that came to us with the JOC concept because they had worked out that it would save money (by cutting the amount of training time that they had to give cadet pilots. It was other customers that CAME TO US to ask us to provide similar courses for them, once they saw the benefits.
They have proven to themselves (without any cajoling from us) that a JOC saves them money - full stop.
Now GAPAN/EPST have asked the airlines what they think and - surprise surprise - they also think that having to spend less money on training their pilots is good for their business (as long as standards are maintained). They made those decisions, not us. They have concluded that a Jet Introduction Course (self-sponsored version of the airline-sponsored JOC) will save money for them by making it easier to train their low hours pilots. They worked that out without any help from us.
Now, a really progressive airline will pay for the JOC/JIC but there are not many out there that can or will do that (hell, a certain Irish airline does not even pay for the type rating - do you want to blame me for that?). In that case they need to get the best possible raw material and have concluded - without any help from us - that employing someone who has bought a JIC gives them better raw material than someone who has only (their words) done a turbo prop MCC.
The facts are incontrovertable - a decent JIC/JOC or even Jet MCC with a few extra hours of handling tacked on the end, will make you an easier person for the airline to train. Even if those facts were not true then the survey by GAPAN would indicate that this is the way the airlines think - so if the airlines think that way then we, you, and everyone else pretty much has to go along with it.
As for us "stealing" MCC from the airlines - what a joke. You could go to the CAA website if you like and download a list of those UK approved FTOs and Type training organisations(including the UK airlines that do their own type conversions - such as BA, Britannia etc.) and see who is approved to do MCC. Very few of those airlines that have bothered to take up MCC approval actually do it themselves - because it is not worth it. It is too expensive for them to do it in full flight sims with training captains - much cheaper to get someone else like us to subcontract (and some of them do, even though they have the facilities). Why? because we do a good job at a good price.
The webpage in question is
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_ApprovedFTOs.pdf
and you want to look at part 3 of the PDF document that it gives you. Note that although some of those airlines are approved to do MCC - they still get third parties to do it for them. My, we must be good at forcing them to waste money!
Bottom line - it seems that the airlines want this training because it saves them money.
Bottom line - they have in fact worked that out for themselves (clever chappies that they are).
Bottom line - if they think that a prospective FO should have this course under their belt, regardless of logic, then that prospective FO better have it or he/she will be passed over for one that does.
question: for which airline do you work and could you give me the names of the people within your training departments who think that JOC/JIC is a waste of time?
Our department is run by peoplewith plebnty of experience in airliners!) and by and large the courses we provide are those that have been REQUESTED by the airlines, not forced upon them by us.
It was a customer that came to us with the JOC concept because they had worked out that it would save money (by cutting the amount of training time that they had to give cadet pilots. It was other customers that CAME TO US to ask us to provide similar courses for them, once they saw the benefits.
They have proven to themselves (without any cajoling from us) that a JOC saves them money - full stop.
Now GAPAN/EPST have asked the airlines what they think and - surprise surprise - they also think that having to spend less money on training their pilots is good for their business (as long as standards are maintained). They made those decisions, not us. They have concluded that a Jet Introduction Course (self-sponsored version of the airline-sponsored JOC) will save money for them by making it easier to train their low hours pilots. They worked that out without any help from us.
Now, a really progressive airline will pay for the JOC/JIC but there are not many out there that can or will do that (hell, a certain Irish airline does not even pay for the type rating - do you want to blame me for that?). In that case they need to get the best possible raw material and have concluded - without any help from us - that employing someone who has bought a JIC gives them better raw material than someone who has only (their words) done a turbo prop MCC.
The facts are incontrovertable - a decent JIC/JOC or even Jet MCC with a few extra hours of handling tacked on the end, will make you an easier person for the airline to train. Even if those facts were not true then the survey by GAPAN would indicate that this is the way the airlines think - so if the airlines think that way then we, you, and everyone else pretty much has to go along with it.
As for us "stealing" MCC from the airlines - what a joke. You could go to the CAA website if you like and download a list of those UK approved FTOs and Type training organisations(including the UK airlines that do their own type conversions - such as BA, Britannia etc.) and see who is approved to do MCC. Very few of those airlines that have bothered to take up MCC approval actually do it themselves - because it is not worth it. It is too expensive for them to do it in full flight sims with training captains - much cheaper to get someone else like us to subcontract (and some of them do, even though they have the facilities). Why? because we do a good job at a good price.
The webpage in question is
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_ApprovedFTOs.pdf
and you want to look at part 3 of the PDF document that it gives you. Note that although some of those airlines are approved to do MCC - they still get third parties to do it for them. My, we must be good at forcing them to waste money!
Bottom line - it seems that the airlines want this training because it saves them money.
Bottom line - they have in fact worked that out for themselves (clever chappies that they are).
Bottom line - if they think that a prospective FO should have this course under their belt, regardless of logic, then that prospective FO better have it or he/she will be passed over for one that does.
question: for which airline do you work and could you give me the names of the people within your training departments who think that JOC/JIC is a waste of time?
Last edited by moggie; 25th Jul 2003 at 15:56.
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Steady ladies! There's truth on both sides.
PPRuNe Towers has pretty much hit the nail on the head, except that, when it comes to MCC, type ratings, etc., most airlines just want to keep their costs down as much as possible. As long as wannabees are prepared to pay for their own training and the CVs pile up on the Chief Pilots' desks they'll screw you down as far as they can go.
Type ratings run to 'generic' SOPs are about as useful as a chocolate teapot. Type ratings run specifically for the airline are what you want but, you gotta hand it to them, some Low Costs are even getting recruits to pay for the type training they would otherwise have to fund and making a profit on it. Not only that, they don't pay you till line training is complete and sometimes that line training takes a loonnnnggg time.
The MCC course is so short its not ever going to be more than an introduction to two crew operations and it doesn't really matter if the sim is jet or turboprop, I'd still choose a jet, though. Jet Orientation Courses run the risk of starting to teach what should be taught on type conversion. Unless they are carefully controlled by the customer airline they could end up adding to their training costs later on when bad habits have to be 'untaught'.
As to the chances of getting a job, the sad truth is that an awful lot of it comes down to luck. Airlines will pick up the top 30 or 40 CVs on the file, select 20 candidates for interview and employ 5. You have to think, is that Jet Orientation Course that cost me thousands of pounds actually going to make that much difference, or would I be better off buying the 'How to succeeed in aptitude tests' book?
Who do you work for moggie? You keep saying 'us'.
PPRuNe Towers has pretty much hit the nail on the head, except that, when it comes to MCC, type ratings, etc., most airlines just want to keep their costs down as much as possible. As long as wannabees are prepared to pay for their own training and the CVs pile up on the Chief Pilots' desks they'll screw you down as far as they can go.
Type ratings run to 'generic' SOPs are about as useful as a chocolate teapot. Type ratings run specifically for the airline are what you want but, you gotta hand it to them, some Low Costs are even getting recruits to pay for the type training they would otherwise have to fund and making a profit on it. Not only that, they don't pay you till line training is complete and sometimes that line training takes a loonnnnggg time.
The MCC course is so short its not ever going to be more than an introduction to two crew operations and it doesn't really matter if the sim is jet or turboprop, I'd still choose a jet, though. Jet Orientation Courses run the risk of starting to teach what should be taught on type conversion. Unless they are carefully controlled by the customer airline they could end up adding to their training costs later on when bad habits have to be 'untaught'.
As to the chances of getting a job, the sad truth is that an awful lot of it comes down to luck. Airlines will pick up the top 30 or 40 CVs on the file, select 20 candidates for interview and employ 5. You have to think, is that Jet Orientation Course that cost me thousands of pounds actually going to make that much difference, or would I be better off buying the 'How to succeeed in aptitude tests' book?
Who do you work for moggie? You keep saying 'us'.
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Sales & Marketing
Having read a very clear and concise post from PPRuNe Towers above I was disappointed at his blinkered view of Sales & Marketing. Before I continue further I make it known that I am in this field with a FTO.
I started training for my ATPL in 1999. I have been with my present company for 18 months. I deal with a variety of enquiries from all over the world. Everyone is different.
I am obviously employed to bring customers to my company, however I do not wish to be tarred with the same brush that seems that Towers seems to be brandishing.
I may have only had a relatively short time in the Industry but I have seen good, bad and ugly.
I try to give impartial advice taking from my own experience and knowledge of others experiences. The CAA/JAA is a mine field for the un initiated and I try to guide wanabes through the pitfalls along the way (of which there are many). I am still learning myself and I do not profess to know everything (anyone who does you should definitely be dubious about) but I do endeavour to seek the answer from a number of different resources at my disposal.
There are a number of people out there who are only out to take your money, who do not care about the service or product they provide. You should always be wary (with that I agree) however make an informed choice. Always visit more than one school and always look into the variety of options. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone always wants to give you advice. Listen, filter out the good from the bad, and make your own decision. PPRuNe is an excellent resource but the clue is in the name (Professional Pilots RUMOUR Network). People posting as students at FTO's may only have knowledge and experience of that FTO so they cannot make comparisons in training quality only comments on their personal training experience. There are also imposters on here who do not make it clear that they have a financial interest in persuading you one way or another. There are theives, rogues and vagabonds in any industry!
As Towers said
You have to choose which bracket the people you meet along the way fall into. But don't judge us all on our job title.
I started training for my ATPL in 1999. I have been with my present company for 18 months. I deal with a variety of enquiries from all over the world. Everyone is different.
I am obviously employed to bring customers to my company, however I do not wish to be tarred with the same brush that seems that Towers seems to be brandishing.
I may have only had a relatively short time in the Industry but I have seen good, bad and ugly.
I try to give impartial advice taking from my own experience and knowledge of others experiences. The CAA/JAA is a mine field for the un initiated and I try to guide wanabes through the pitfalls along the way (of which there are many). I am still learning myself and I do not profess to know everything (anyone who does you should definitely be dubious about) but I do endeavour to seek the answer from a number of different resources at my disposal.
There are a number of people out there who are only out to take your money, who do not care about the service or product they provide. You should always be wary (with that I agree) however make an informed choice. Always visit more than one school and always look into the variety of options. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone always wants to give you advice. Listen, filter out the good from the bad, and make your own decision. PPRuNe is an excellent resource but the clue is in the name (Professional Pilots RUMOUR Network). People posting as students at FTO's may only have knowledge and experience of that FTO so they cannot make comparisons in training quality only comments on their personal training experience. There are also imposters on here who do not make it clear that they have a financial interest in persuading you one way or another. There are theives, rogues and vagabonds in any industry!
As Towers said
Finally, I've been flying since 1975 and I will tell you this for free. In your journey through flight training you will be very lucky if you even meet 5 people in FTO's with integrity and no other thought than helping you. With a very few honourable and legendary exceptions they will be career flying and ground instructors with no say in sales, marketing, premises or equipment.
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I'm going to add some more to this. Those of you who have been in the flight training industry for some time, compare and contrast the old style CAA Frozen ATPL holder straight out of training with his or her JAA counterpart.
We used to train pilots almost exclusively for single pilot piston operations. They knew nothing about Operations Manuals, loadsheets, journey logs SOPs and schedules, the things that dominate your life as a junior FO. They had only flown solo or dual, in each case doing everything in the aircraft from the flying to the RT to the navigation. Teaching them to sit on their hands and distribute work in a two crew environment was often a major headache, 'cause they'd only ever flown single pilot.
Now we teach pilots the rudiments of EFIS and FMS, not enough to get fixated by type, but enough to make it less of a shock. They learn JAR OPS1, which all JAA ops manuals are based on, they learn a little about MNPS operation, a little about HF comms, and a little about real life paperwork. They get an introduction to two pilot operations with the MCC course, once again not enough to do harm but enough to take off the rough edges.
The argument about Jet Orientation Courses seems to be one of where do we stop? The answer at the moment seems to be when you get type or airline specific. Unfortunately its really hard to teach autopilots, EFIS, SOPs and FMS without being type specific.
Another answer might be 'don't stop'. Instead, identify the airline the pilot is going to work for and integrate the airline SOPs and type specific training right down into the ATPL course so that type specific data, when taught, is the right data. Now that's a tricky one, because it means the airlines have to mark the candidates for employment before they're trained.
Even without that, the current system is a whole lot better than the one that we used to have.
Marketing? There are some genuinely helpful marketing people out there, including Fogbound, but most of them are not your mates.
We used to train pilots almost exclusively for single pilot piston operations. They knew nothing about Operations Manuals, loadsheets, journey logs SOPs and schedules, the things that dominate your life as a junior FO. They had only flown solo or dual, in each case doing everything in the aircraft from the flying to the RT to the navigation. Teaching them to sit on their hands and distribute work in a two crew environment was often a major headache, 'cause they'd only ever flown single pilot.
Now we teach pilots the rudiments of EFIS and FMS, not enough to get fixated by type, but enough to make it less of a shock. They learn JAR OPS1, which all JAA ops manuals are based on, they learn a little about MNPS operation, a little about HF comms, and a little about real life paperwork. They get an introduction to two pilot operations with the MCC course, once again not enough to do harm but enough to take off the rough edges.
The argument about Jet Orientation Courses seems to be one of where do we stop? The answer at the moment seems to be when you get type or airline specific. Unfortunately its really hard to teach autopilots, EFIS, SOPs and FMS without being type specific.
Another answer might be 'don't stop'. Instead, identify the airline the pilot is going to work for and integrate the airline SOPs and type specific training right down into the ATPL course so that type specific data, when taught, is the right data. Now that's a tricky one, because it means the airlines have to mark the candidates for employment before they're trained.
Even without that, the current system is a whole lot better than the one that we used to have.
Marketing? There are some genuinely helpful marketing people out there, including Fogbound, but most of them are not your mates.
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Well said, Alex.
JOC = Jet Orientation Course - usually airline sponsored, trains cadets in the airline specific SOP using paperwork that emulates their sponsor's wherever possible. Where do you stop? When the money runs out because the more that you do at the relatively cheap FTO stage the less you spend on type training.
JIC = Jet Introduction Course - usually self sponsored and therefore working to a typical SOP, using typical paperwork etc. Unless you know which airline the cadet is going to you can only work to a generic SOP - but does this matter? MCC is not about the SOP per se but is about the human factors/CRM skills of working with an SOP. It is about monitoring, cross-checking, situational awareness and prioritisation, not about whether an airline calls "positive climb" or "positive rate".
What a JIC does (and what an MCC plus extra hours can also do to an extent) is expand the candidate's situational awareness, experience and jet handling skills. These ARE things that will be useful for ANY jet sim based selection procedure and also for any jet type-conversion (and also, to a lesser degree) on any turboprop selection/rating.
The training has to be good - concentrating upon the MCC/CRM/airmanship skills of the cadet. If it is to help with the handling elements of a type rating then it must also be done on a good quality training device - and in my opinion that should be a device which is at or near the fidelity of a Full Flight Simulator (rather than some of the less able MCC specific devices out there).
The point I have made a couple of times already is that the GAPAN/EPST survey would appear to suggest that airlines now regard this sort of training as an essential requirement for the candidate. As such, if the survey and GAPAN are to be believed, there is a need for people to provide this training and (unfortunately for them) there is a need for the candidate to dip into his/her pocket even further.
However, maybe the cost isn't that bad - if you combine your JIC with the (JAA required) MCC then you will probably have to shell out for at least an extra 12-16 hours to get some real value out of it. Because of the relative costs of synthetic devices and real aeroplanes this will cost much less than the same number of hours on a Seneca. Speak to the marketing department at the FTO that you are considering and get quotes. Then decide for yourselves!
By the way, Alex, I didn't want to name the organisation that I work for because I did not want to be accused of using this forum to advertise. I have not tried to hide the fact that I work for an FTO or that I truely beileve in the value of what we teach.
By the way, PPRuNe Towers, I find the following comment of your's rather offensive:
With a VERY few exceptions the instructors I have met in my time with FTOs have been dedicated people who take a personal pride in the success of their students and share their joy and despair. Most will "go the extra mile" if it is needed - especially if you have a student who is truely willing to put the extra effort in themselves. To suggest that "all but 5 people" per FTO have no integrity and are only after your money just shows how out of touch you must be.
JOC = Jet Orientation Course - usually airline sponsored, trains cadets in the airline specific SOP using paperwork that emulates their sponsor's wherever possible. Where do you stop? When the money runs out because the more that you do at the relatively cheap FTO stage the less you spend on type training.
JIC = Jet Introduction Course - usually self sponsored and therefore working to a typical SOP, using typical paperwork etc. Unless you know which airline the cadet is going to you can only work to a generic SOP - but does this matter? MCC is not about the SOP per se but is about the human factors/CRM skills of working with an SOP. It is about monitoring, cross-checking, situational awareness and prioritisation, not about whether an airline calls "positive climb" or "positive rate".
What a JIC does (and what an MCC plus extra hours can also do to an extent) is expand the candidate's situational awareness, experience and jet handling skills. These ARE things that will be useful for ANY jet sim based selection procedure and also for any jet type-conversion (and also, to a lesser degree) on any turboprop selection/rating.
The training has to be good - concentrating upon the MCC/CRM/airmanship skills of the cadet. If it is to help with the handling elements of a type rating then it must also be done on a good quality training device - and in my opinion that should be a device which is at or near the fidelity of a Full Flight Simulator (rather than some of the less able MCC specific devices out there).
The point I have made a couple of times already is that the GAPAN/EPST survey would appear to suggest that airlines now regard this sort of training as an essential requirement for the candidate. As such, if the survey and GAPAN are to be believed, there is a need for people to provide this training and (unfortunately for them) there is a need for the candidate to dip into his/her pocket even further.
However, maybe the cost isn't that bad - if you combine your JIC with the (JAA required) MCC then you will probably have to shell out for at least an extra 12-16 hours to get some real value out of it. Because of the relative costs of synthetic devices and real aeroplanes this will cost much less than the same number of hours on a Seneca. Speak to the marketing department at the FTO that you are considering and get quotes. Then decide for yourselves!
By the way, Alex, I didn't want to name the organisation that I work for because I did not want to be accused of using this forum to advertise. I have not tried to hide the fact that I work for an FTO or that I truely beileve in the value of what we teach.
By the way, PPRuNe Towers, I find the following comment of your's rather offensive:
Finally, I've been flying since 1975 and I will tell you this for free. In your journey through flight training you will be very lucky if you even meet 5 people in FTO's with integrity and no other thought than helping you. With a very few honourable and legendary exceptions they will be career flying and ground instructors with no say in sales, marketing, premises or equipment.
Last edited by moggie; 25th Jul 2003 at 15:59.
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Here's what is offensive moggie,
At last amongst all the pages you've actually provided some content that wasn't pumping up your school in Spain.
Readers go back and review the pearls of wisdom prior to the post above.
'We do this'' 'we do that.'' A non stop roller coaster of pro school spin without a single useable piece of information for those seeking solid information.
Every single post until now was simply promoting your glorious edifice of learning. It was blatant and so obvious it it was the main reason I began my my polemic with:
If I wind you folks up in the schools that's the intent. The forum is for the punters not the schools. Advertising from the schools suppports the site and not the other way round - that's the message we're sending you all because this thread has been a disgrace.
If you want to contribute posts with substantive content such as you finally managed we're very grateful. However, if you want to waste our bandwidth with a barrage of self laudatory spin just sod off elsewhere. I will not repeat myself.
Rob Lloyd
No qualms about praising the intentions within the syllabus Alex but we do still despair as to the point and intent of the questions.
We've all got our favourite questions but mine still remains asking the colour of the light in a sealed class one laser emitting product like a ring laser back in the mid nineties.......
Glad to see you sticking up for yourself Fogbound but as you say it yourself - short time in the industry and you've seen the good, bad and he ugly.
Thing is that those in your position know about the con men and blaggards far sooner than our wannabees. Sadly it is us that stands up for the students and not the FTO industry. Some may remember my words a couple of weeks ago regarding incest being rife. Don't drop the cowboys in the guano because you may have to work for them next year. How else to you explain the outright lies prevalent regarding visa's for training in the states?? The schools in non JAA states claiming otherwise??
A query from a 'mature' starter regarding standard has resulted in a thread perverted by those writing from a number of schools, particulary in those Spain.
It's been slapped down, such promotion will continue to be slapped down.
Rob
At last amongst all the pages you've actually provided some content that wasn't pumping up your school in Spain.
Readers go back and review the pearls of wisdom prior to the post above.
'We do this'' 'we do that.'' A non stop roller coaster of pro school spin without a single useable piece of information for those seeking solid information.
Every single post until now was simply promoting your glorious edifice of learning. It was blatant and so obvious it it was the main reason I began my my polemic with:
It's a long time since I've seen so many transparent agendas coupled with so much willy waving in one thread
If you want to contribute posts with substantive content such as you finally managed we're very grateful. However, if you want to waste our bandwidth with a barrage of self laudatory spin just sod off elsewhere. I will not repeat myself.
Rob Lloyd
No qualms about praising the intentions within the syllabus Alex but we do still despair as to the point and intent of the questions.
We've all got our favourite questions but mine still remains asking the colour of the light in a sealed class one laser emitting product like a ring laser back in the mid nineties.......
Glad to see you sticking up for yourself Fogbound but as you say it yourself - short time in the industry and you've seen the good, bad and he ugly.
Thing is that those in your position know about the con men and blaggards far sooner than our wannabees. Sadly it is us that stands up for the students and not the FTO industry. Some may remember my words a couple of weeks ago regarding incest being rife. Don't drop the cowboys in the guano because you may have to work for them next year. How else to you explain the outright lies prevalent regarding visa's for training in the states?? The schools in non JAA states claiming otherwise??
A query from a 'mature' starter regarding standard has resulted in a thread perverted by those writing from a number of schools, particulary in those Spain.
It's been slapped down, such promotion will continue to be slapped down.
Rob
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moggie, you just have been accused of advertising! If you work for an FTO and push their line, no matter how much you believe in it, you should make it clear who you work for. There's nothing in your profile to even suggest you work for an FTO.
We'll do it the MOD way, I'll suggest a name and you confirm or deny.
BAe in Jerez?
We'll do it the MOD way, I'll suggest a name and you confirm or deny.
BAe in Jerez?
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Glad to see you sticking up for yourself Fogbound but as you say it yourself - short time in the industry and you've seen the good, bad and he ugly.
Thing is that those in your position know about the con men and blaggards far sooner than our wannabees. Sadly it is us that stands up for the students and not the FTO industry. Some may remember my words a couple of weeks ago regarding incest being rife. Don't drop the cowboys in the guano because you may have to work for them next year. How else to you explain the outright lies prevalent regarding visa's for training in the states?? The schools in non JAA states claiming otherwise??
With reference to the above quote from Towers, the reason I am doing my job and the reason I can do my job is that I have been there recently, and I appreciate the decisions that wanabes need to make. I was one of the first few batches to go through the JAA rigmarole and have seen it develop and refine. Aviation is an ever changing industry and the past 18 months have seen major changes. Help and advice from the 'old boys' is usually invaluable but as I and Alex Whittingham have pointed out, a lot has changed in the working and operational environment, thus training has needed to change to meet this.
Those out there about to take a tentative look into training more often than not do not realise the questions which need to be asked. The prime example is in the advertised prices. I can make a full ab-initio course look like it will only cost approximately £24,000, when sensibly the average student will be looking more around the £40,000 mark. For those who have not flown before and are wanting to learn, simple things like approach and landing fees may be over looked. Licence conversion costs if training is viewed cheaper overseas. The words I hate to hear are "i'm looking for the cheapest training" If you fall into this misinformed trap then it may prove more costly in the long run.
Those of us with some knowledge (however long or short the experience) should not be trying to dupe the people who come to us for advice.
Over the months I have spent thousands on advertising for my company here with PPRuNe. This is the way advertising should be done. Rather than ambiguous statements on open forums, wannabes can get your exact information from your company, no misinterpretation etc.
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Cracking defence again Fogbound and well done to you. Final paragraph might give you the warm and fuzzies but it doesn't cut it with us.
Training school ads and follow up literature are littered with exaggerations, misinformation, downright lies, oh, and tiny little things like stock photos of new aircraft rather than the real ones on the line. They are not the way to communicate just because you are straight with the wannabees.
Please think this through. We can create e-mail addresses and internet phone numbers at will here in the Towers. We mystery shop to check up on 'ambiguous statements.' We take legal advice. We don't get 'exact' information we get 'misinformation. We may not have headlines comparable to what we did with the Guv but we do have bent purveyors of flight training facing charges.
You have the confidence to stand up for yourself and the way you work - again, that's fine. The point is that at every show or speaking engagement Danny or I attend folks working for FTO's are telling us within 10 minutes about the latest charlatans. Your industry doesn't do anything about it. We can only conclude that is because people in your industry reckon they might end up working for them in the future.
You allow wannabees to find both the sharks and the angels on their own. Even worse you state they should find out entirely by relying on adverts!! This forum is littered with the victims, their shattered dreams and their debts. Every one of them had warm and cozy chats with an agent or marketing person.
So one more chorus:
This forum is for the wannabees - just like you were.
Advertising supports PPRuNe and not the other way round.
Advertisers need us because it's where the vast majority of wannabees go every single day in that fleeting half life that is so utterly vital to FTO's.
We're here for the long haul and we have the memories and details that wannabees lack and suffer through.
We will continue our policies of caveat emptor and never pay up front as we always have done. We will 'out' those pushing their own commercial agendas. As long as your industry protects the inept, the the bent and the downright criminal we'll carry on doing what we do. You'll only get our attention and respect when your industry uses Trading Standards, the ASA, the CAA, Companies House, Customs and Excise and, ultimately, the Police the way we do.
One final word for the FTO's. In case you're feeling like waving your displeasure over our heads, take a close look at the bottom of the page. The ads that have always appeared there are gone and the income from them has as well. We binned the bent gets because they were sending in spyware to probe your computers. You'll find the whole story on our computer forum if you want the details.
The point is this - we kicked them off the site along with the income to protect the computers of our readers who don't pay us a single penny. So don't waste your time by threatening to run away with your advertising ball.
Remember - you need us and the wannabees not the other way round. Yeah, I know it's not like dealing with other publications because we couldn't give a stuff about the money. Get used to it.
Rob Lloyd
Training school ads and follow up literature are littered with exaggerations, misinformation, downright lies, oh, and tiny little things like stock photos of new aircraft rather than the real ones on the line. They are not the way to communicate just because you are straight with the wannabees.
Please think this through. We can create e-mail addresses and internet phone numbers at will here in the Towers. We mystery shop to check up on 'ambiguous statements.' We take legal advice. We don't get 'exact' information we get 'misinformation. We may not have headlines comparable to what we did with the Guv but we do have bent purveyors of flight training facing charges.
You have the confidence to stand up for yourself and the way you work - again, that's fine. The point is that at every show or speaking engagement Danny or I attend folks working for FTO's are telling us within 10 minutes about the latest charlatans. Your industry doesn't do anything about it. We can only conclude that is because people in your industry reckon they might end up working for them in the future.
You allow wannabees to find both the sharks and the angels on their own. Even worse you state they should find out entirely by relying on adverts!! This forum is littered with the victims, their shattered dreams and their debts. Every one of them had warm and cozy chats with an agent or marketing person.
So one more chorus:
This forum is for the wannabees - just like you were.
Advertising supports PPRuNe and not the other way round.
Advertisers need us because it's where the vast majority of wannabees go every single day in that fleeting half life that is so utterly vital to FTO's.
We're here for the long haul and we have the memories and details that wannabees lack and suffer through.
We will continue our policies of caveat emptor and never pay up front as we always have done. We will 'out' those pushing their own commercial agendas. As long as your industry protects the inept, the the bent and the downright criminal we'll carry on doing what we do. You'll only get our attention and respect when your industry uses Trading Standards, the ASA, the CAA, Companies House, Customs and Excise and, ultimately, the Police the way we do.
One final word for the FTO's. In case you're feeling like waving your displeasure over our heads, take a close look at the bottom of the page. The ads that have always appeared there are gone and the income from them has as well. We binned the bent gets because they were sending in spyware to probe your computers. You'll find the whole story on our computer forum if you want the details.
The point is this - we kicked them off the site along with the income to protect the computers of our readers who don't pay us a single penny. So don't waste your time by threatening to run away with your advertising ball.
Remember - you need us and the wannabees not the other way round. Yeah, I know it's not like dealing with other publications because we couldn't give a stuff about the money. Get used to it.
Rob Lloyd
Last edited by PPRuNe Towers; 27th Jul 2003 at 02:48.
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well said
maybe my last paragraph could have been better worded.
My use of the term 'Misinterpretation' was meant to be directed towards people posing as innocent bystanders rather than as FTO employees. If you are dealing with an FTO website etc then you know who you are dealing with, ie someone with an interest in attracting you to their company. Rather than getting advice which may be biased from someone whos background you are not aware of.
My statement about advertising was meant in a neutral context. No threats or accusations. If anything it was meant to show that by advertising officially it can avoid some of the ugly 'unveilings' of FTO staffs postings with hidden agendas.
I agree with Towers viewpoint and am pleased that they have removed a company who were using their advertising to gain access to users computers.
I hope that the information I provide in any media is correct. I have met Sales and Marketing staff who do not fly and are just doing a job. They may not be aware the information they provide is incorrect. That is not a defence as they should ensure that even mistakingly they are not misleading people who don't know better. Unfortunately the dollar signs appear in their eyes and that side of things takes over.
If you are getting false information from a website or FTO in writing then you have written proof of their misdirection/deception and you would be able to contact trading standards etc (still bearing in mind the unwillingness of people to rock the boat as stated many a time).
I did not intend my comment to be construde that you should rely solely on information from adverts. I always advocate visiting schools and meeting face to face. You can see first hand, not from 'stock photos'. It is also harder for someone to lie when faced directly with a person, rather than a telephone handset or computer monitor.
As a prudent business most FTO's will keep an eye on what the competition are selling and the way they are selling it. Sometimes adverts pop up which as a training provider you know are deliberately misleading. I am aware of some in various forms of media that have been drawn to the attention of the 'powers that be' either officially or unofficially, and the result is usually a removal of the advert.
This is obviously a very heated topic and I do not wish to point fingers or shift blame. The intention of my posts are, as with most are, to give a viewpoint. I do not mean to insight any argument, and appreciate the statements which are being made from a variety of sources.
Maybe I'm in the wrong job, maybe I care too much. I didn't intend to be in Sales & Marketing, I was planning (like many) to have been in an airline job for the last 18 months. As I hope one day to be flying with some of the wannabes who I hear about I would prefer that I was surrounded by well trained pilots rather than people who spent over the odds on mediocre training.
As the song goes 'money makes the world go round' unfortunately reality and the ideal are usually vastly different.
My use of the term 'Misinterpretation' was meant to be directed towards people posing as innocent bystanders rather than as FTO employees. If you are dealing with an FTO website etc then you know who you are dealing with, ie someone with an interest in attracting you to their company. Rather than getting advice which may be biased from someone whos background you are not aware of.
My statement about advertising was meant in a neutral context. No threats or accusations. If anything it was meant to show that by advertising officially it can avoid some of the ugly 'unveilings' of FTO staffs postings with hidden agendas.
I agree with Towers viewpoint and am pleased that they have removed a company who were using their advertising to gain access to users computers.
I hope that the information I provide in any media is correct. I have met Sales and Marketing staff who do not fly and are just doing a job. They may not be aware the information they provide is incorrect. That is not a defence as they should ensure that even mistakingly they are not misleading people who don't know better. Unfortunately the dollar signs appear in their eyes and that side of things takes over.
If you are getting false information from a website or FTO in writing then you have written proof of their misdirection/deception and you would be able to contact trading standards etc (still bearing in mind the unwillingness of people to rock the boat as stated many a time).
I did not intend my comment to be construde that you should rely solely on information from adverts. I always advocate visiting schools and meeting face to face. You can see first hand, not from 'stock photos'. It is also harder for someone to lie when faced directly with a person, rather than a telephone handset or computer monitor.
As a prudent business most FTO's will keep an eye on what the competition are selling and the way they are selling it. Sometimes adverts pop up which as a training provider you know are deliberately misleading. I am aware of some in various forms of media that have been drawn to the attention of the 'powers that be' either officially or unofficially, and the result is usually a removal of the advert.
This is obviously a very heated topic and I do not wish to point fingers or shift blame. The intention of my posts are, as with most are, to give a viewpoint. I do not mean to insight any argument, and appreciate the statements which are being made from a variety of sources.
Maybe I'm in the wrong job, maybe I care too much. I didn't intend to be in Sales & Marketing, I was planning (like many) to have been in an airline job for the last 18 months. As I hope one day to be flying with some of the wannabes who I hear about I would prefer that I was surrounded by well trained pilots rather than people who spent over the odds on mediocre training.
As the song goes 'money makes the world go round' unfortunately reality and the ideal are usually vastly different.
Last edited by Fogbound; 25th Jul 2003 at 21:26.
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FTO's
I am acurrent student at Airmed. HAve experienced all the course more or less, am finishing MCC in 1 week. I would not personally reccomend Airmed. I have found it to be aschool beset with problems and irritating and needless delays. The new management structure is not the best and my opinion is that sometimes problems are not dealt with so well. I am not saying this is a bad school but i believe that there are better. There is a lack of communication (or appears to be from students view point) within the internal structure of the school.
There are some very good members of staff, but also it is worth noting that they take low hour instructors, somethinh UK schools dont usually do I believe. Therer are some excellent instructors however. The MCC course is irrelevant in the wider picture and the type of FNPT2 is unimportant. In fact got a reply from one company inUK that pririty given to MCC applicants but thosewho are good would be accepted withoutit asthey can do it at time of type training.
Dont worry about bells and whistkes talk to present students as those who have left (in case of other 2 respondants quite a while) dont have experience of present situation (in my opinion deteriorating here).
Again I would reccomend a different school, if possible a UK CAA approved one as these seem to be held in high regard by everybody I speak to.
HOW IS IT GOING TINO?
There are some very good members of staff, but also it is worth noting that they take low hour instructors, somethinh UK schools dont usually do I believe. Therer are some excellent instructors however. The MCC course is irrelevant in the wider picture and the type of FNPT2 is unimportant. In fact got a reply from one company inUK that pririty given to MCC applicants but thosewho are good would be accepted withoutit asthey can do it at time of type training.
Dont worry about bells and whistkes talk to present students as those who have left (in case of other 2 respondants quite a while) dont have experience of present situation (in my opinion deteriorating here).
Again I would reccomend a different school, if possible a UK CAA approved one as these seem to be held in high regard by everybody I speak to.
HOW IS IT GOING TINO?
Alex - I think you are quite correct in saying the current ground training syllabus under JAA is superior and more relevant than that which we enjoyed under the old CAA system - ahh, how could I get by without understanding DECCA Lane Slip... etc. 
On the flying side though I think we have gone slightly backwards I am afraid.
Graduates now spend even less time in the air and more time in the Sim. The time they spend in the air is now nearly all dual. They can graduate without ever having flown a twin solo - that usually suprises people. There is now a total lack of 'beacon bashing' or hour building in either the Integrated or Modular route - virtually every hour is a prescribed exercise. I think this makes for a less flavoursome flying course and fewer opportunities to 'learn about flying from that'.
I also think it is undesireable to produce commercial pilots who have never been beyond 45 degrees of bank or 40 degrees of pitch. Similarly I wonder about the wisdom of removing spin training from the syllabus.
---------
Towers has identified a very clear trend in the world of flight training.
The basic flying syllabus to CPL and IR is the bread and butter and stiff competition means nobody makes much money out of it. The jam has become MCC courses and now Jet Intro Courses. As well as various Airline Preparation Paraphenalia.
These are the real money spinners and thats why schools are pushing them so hard.
And don't set GAPAN on some kind of pedestal either. Fine people involved and all that but they have an agenda as well. GAPAN sit between the FTO's and the airlines in many respects. They provide sponsorships to a few Wannabes, they provide kudos to some FTO's and they provide selection testing to some airlines.
Just because their marvelous survey finds that airlines want Wannabes to pay for more training doesn't really mean anything.
Airlines would like Wannabes to pay for type rating and then preferably work for free - one or two are even cheeky enough to attempt this recently.
But when the market picks up as it surely will then you will see all this fall away. Got a CPL? Got a Frzn ATPL? Got a current IR? Can you start next week? Right - thats all you need, now what size hat do you take?
The frills of MCC and certainly JIC are just that. If you have the cash comfortably then by all means spend the money. But don't think you *have* to because GAPAN and a few schools said you needed to.
---------
You'll need cash in reserve to pay for Class one and IR renewals each year. You'll need cash in hand to pay for attending interviews and paying for selection days. You'll need cash in hand for an Instructors rating. Blowing the lot in a tremendous bout of '5h1t or bust' to get that Jet F/O position with Big Airways is probably too risky a strategy.
---------
Oh how we'll all look back and laugh in 5yrs when the airlines can't find enough pilots and they're poaching each others and sending recruiters out to Little Piddlington In The Marsh airfield scouting for talent....
Good luck,
WWW
On the flying side though I think we have gone slightly backwards I am afraid.
Graduates now spend even less time in the air and more time in the Sim. The time they spend in the air is now nearly all dual. They can graduate without ever having flown a twin solo - that usually suprises people. There is now a total lack of 'beacon bashing' or hour building in either the Integrated or Modular route - virtually every hour is a prescribed exercise. I think this makes for a less flavoursome flying course and fewer opportunities to 'learn about flying from that'.
I also think it is undesireable to produce commercial pilots who have never been beyond 45 degrees of bank or 40 degrees of pitch. Similarly I wonder about the wisdom of removing spin training from the syllabus.
---------
Towers has identified a very clear trend in the world of flight training.
The basic flying syllabus to CPL and IR is the bread and butter and stiff competition means nobody makes much money out of it. The jam has become MCC courses and now Jet Intro Courses. As well as various Airline Preparation Paraphenalia.
These are the real money spinners and thats why schools are pushing them so hard.
And don't set GAPAN on some kind of pedestal either. Fine people involved and all that but they have an agenda as well. GAPAN sit between the FTO's and the airlines in many respects. They provide sponsorships to a few Wannabes, they provide kudos to some FTO's and they provide selection testing to some airlines.
Just because their marvelous survey finds that airlines want Wannabes to pay for more training doesn't really mean anything.
Airlines would like Wannabes to pay for type rating and then preferably work for free - one or two are even cheeky enough to attempt this recently.
But when the market picks up as it surely will then you will see all this fall away. Got a CPL? Got a Frzn ATPL? Got a current IR? Can you start next week? Right - thats all you need, now what size hat do you take?
The frills of MCC and certainly JIC are just that. If you have the cash comfortably then by all means spend the money. But don't think you *have* to because GAPAN and a few schools said you needed to.
---------
You'll need cash in reserve to pay for Class one and IR renewals each year. You'll need cash in hand to pay for attending interviews and paying for selection days. You'll need cash in hand for an Instructors rating. Blowing the lot in a tremendous bout of '5h1t or bust' to get that Jet F/O position with Big Airways is probably too risky a strategy.
---------
Oh how we'll all look back and laugh in 5yrs when the airlines can't find enough pilots and they're poaching each others and sending recruiters out to Little Piddlington In The Marsh airfield scouting for talent....
Good luck,
WWW
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BAE Spain VS WMU USA
With the current exchange rate WMU seems like a good choice. Course and accomodation is c $85,000 which is approx £46,000.
BAE or FTE as it is known is E92,000 or about £66,000.
Not looking for info on schools but does one have a better reputation than the other or are they both about equal. Is it best to save £20,000 and go to WMU.
Any comments from ex or current students welcome.
BAE or FTE as it is known is E92,000 or about £66,000.
Not looking for info on schools but does one have a better reputation than the other or are they both about equal. Is it best to save £20,000 and go to WMU.
Any comments from ex or current students welcome.
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£46,000 sounds like a bit of a bargain to me. You are into modular cost for that money.
That extra £20K will pay for a instructors rating and a decent salary for 12 months, or even a type rating.
WMU normally go to the Flyer exhibition.
That extra £20K will pay for a instructors rating and a decent salary for 12 months, or even a type rating.
WMU normally go to the Flyer exhibition.
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Fly-in-Spain school
Hey all,
My brother needs to do his JAA PPL(A) pretty fast this summer as its part of his college course. I was wondering, would anyone be able to recommend some schools in England, or possibly if anyone has heard of the school in Spain called Fly-in-Spain, which is being advertised lately. He already has done most of the ground school and just needs to do his flying and exams.
Thanks.
My brother needs to do his JAA PPL(A) pretty fast this summer as its part of his college course. I was wondering, would anyone be able to recommend some schools in England, or possibly if anyone has heard of the school in Spain called Fly-in-Spain, which is being advertised lately. He already has done most of the ground school and just needs to do his flying and exams.
Thanks.
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If he want to do the PPL exams in Spain you will have to take in account that PPL exams are in Jun, Sep, Nov... ( this year). I never have hear about Fly-in-Spain. Do you know where is it?
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I think they are a new company http://www.fly-in-spain.com
Just click on English on the right and then on General Aviation, and it goes on about the PPL course there. They seem to be tied in with Jerez and Morroco.
Just click on English on the right and then on General Aviation, and it goes on about the PPL course there. They seem to be tied in with Jerez and Morroco.