Flight training in a non-JAA country problematic?

[stefair]

Hiya,

In looking for the most reasonable way of earning the ATPL I have found the modular route to be my best option. Said that I plan on doing all my flight training in Florida with a provider like EFT. My long-term goal is, of course, to become a professional pilot. Needless to say I am very flexible, when it comes to choosing a country for future employment.

Some friends of mine, however, say that there were numerous JAA member states, which did not approve an ATPL based on flight training in non-JAA airspace.

I just cannot believe this, as I think, no matter what, a JAA ATPL is a JAA ATPL.

Is here anyone who can confirm or disconfirm my friends' claim?

If proofed to be true which countries are they exactly talking about and in what way would it influence me at a later stage whilst being employed?

Cheers,
-stefair

[Bruno Silva]

Hi stefair,

I too want to be a pilot and I wonīt be able to do my training here in Europe as I donīt have enough money!
Maybe US is a nice place!

Reagarding what you said I understood you were doing it modular.
Than why dont you do everything and leave your ATPL to do it in Europe?

You would still have your training cheaper except the ATPL part!

Pardon me if I understood it wrongly!!!

Cheers

[birdlady]

Hi stefair,

I think what your friend was trying to get at is that the UK CAA is the only one out there that can "approve" JAA training to a flight school in a non JAA state. In other words, if you go to the states for JAA training its effectively a UK JAA licence. Therefore, may not be fully excepted by all JAA member states so if you want to fly in another country besides the UK you may have to convert your licence. The extent of the conversion will depend on the country. If you want to save yourself some heartache and cash I would do an ICAO PPL and hourbuilding, then return to the UK and do the JAA CPL. An excellent place to do the PPL and your hourbuilding would be the states or even better South Africa. I've done both a JAA PPL and a South African PPL and have to say the south african training was excellent.

[kolesbukta]

Hmmm...?

Isn't it the whole idea of the holy JAA/JAR system, that JAA licence/rating is valid in all JAA member countries, no matter where you have been flying as long as it says JAA on the licence??

Here is for example a quote from Naples web sites:

"Pilots training for JAA licences and ratings at NAC’s Florida facility with no conversion required upon return to any JAR-FCL regulated country. We offer a full range of flight and ground courses for every type of JAA training possible."

Makes me wonder.

[BillieBob]

Isn't it the whole idea of the holy JAA/JAR system, that JAA licence/rating is valid in all JAA member countries

JAA member states are obliged to recognise a JAA licence and rating only if the training has been conducted in accordance with JAR-FCL. The confusion arises because some countries have, in the past, contended that modular training conducted outside of JAA member states is not in accordance with JAR-FCL and, therefore, have refused to recognise the licences and/or ratings so gained.

The critical statement is in Appendix 1b to JAR-FCL 1.055, which states in part that training outside JAA member states shall "....be confined to all or part of the ATP integrated course". Interestingly, Appendix 1b applies only to organisations whose principal place of business and registered office is located in a JAA member state.

The problem has been getting less severe as more states achieve mutual recognition and accept 'overseas' training but there are still isolated incidents involving some national authorities. However, it remains to be seen what restrictions the EU will place on overseas training when EASA publishes its standards.

I'm afraid that 'birdlady' has yet again got hold of the wrong end of the stick. It is not true to say that the UK CAA is the only authority that can approve JAA training outside the JAA. For a long time it was the only Authority that chose to approve modular training outside JAA states but it has recently been joined by Norway. Belgium and Germany have always approved integrated training in Arizona by Sabena and Lufthansa respectively.

[IRISHPILOT]

Yep, several JAR approved places around, also modular (ther is a JAR modular place approved by se Germans in Croatia, French in Thailand)

Never heard of any CAA asking for where you did your training, how could they tell anyway, as it's not on your licence?

And remember that a rating can be added under the autority of another CAA than the licence itself, so when I was in EFT, you could do your UK CAA CPL flight test there, then do an Irish ME IR there, to be added to your CAA licence.

Check out all the options, as with more and more Eastern european countries joining JAA, there are cheap options in Europe too.

JARs are not law, so there is no obligation whatsoever to accept them in most countries. However, tey usually do.

cheers, IP

[My names Turkish]

And remember that a rating can be added under the autority of another CAA than the licence itself, so when I was in EFT, you could do your UK CAA CPL flight test there, then do an Irish ME IR there, to be added to your CAA licence.

You can't do that anymore I would point out Irishpilot.

[Martin1234]

Why can't you achieve ratings in other JAR states and get your issuing state to implement them on your licence?

[IRISHPILOT]

Thanks for correcting me on that one, Turkish.

Of course your local CAA will add a rating to your licence, Martin. So that leaves countries like CZ (where I am based), Romania or Slovenia for the cheaper ME IR. Maybe Spain or Portugal, though probably more expensive.

Type ratings can and are done just about anywhere in the world, and many JAA CAAs have approved courses in the US, Thailand, UAE... - Though this is probably not what you are after at this stage, Stefair. The idea with the ICAO PPL is good though, it's cheaper and you can keep it. (under JAR's you'll loose it, once you upgrade to the CPL.)

[Malc]

Have you thought of doing a FAA CPL & IR, then converting to JAA. It will probably work out about the same in terms of Ģ/$, but you'll almost certainly end up with more varied experience, more hours, plus a FAA licence to sit alongside your JAR one.

[stefair]

Hey you all, thanks very much for your good input!

Malc,
Of course I have thought about it, but you need 1,000 tt flown commercially with an airline company in order to convert the FAA CPL/IR to JAR, don't you? Otherwise it won't be recognized. So I guess the FAA way would not be my best bet. If I managed to solve the visa problem out of the blue (greencard lottery or meeting an American bird ;-) ), I definitely plan on moving to the States for some longer time and doing the FAA route. However, before I don't get a go ahead upon the visa issue I plan on doing a JAA training.

My first license will be the PPL, and if trained with EFT, I'll have it both as FAA and JAA license respectively. I then could still decide where I go from there once I graduate from University in a couple of years.

Personally, I think the FAA flight training towards the ATPL is the best option, not only in terms of costs. There's one Floridian flight school I know, which offers all training from zero experience up to CFII /MEI for "only" $30K. Of course I'd have to do lots of instructing before I could move on to further endeavors. On the other hand, in terms of cost efficiency the US way is the most reasonable way of earning the ATPL. Additionally, I think US pilots have generally gained way more experience prior to seeking airline employment, which is definitely a big plus. Unfortunately, I cannot choose this option before I'm not granted a permanent US work permit.

Anyway, thanks for your suggestion!

[birdlady]

Billie Bob

I stand corrected. Sorry about that. When I was doing my JAA PPL, the UK was the only country that could approve training in another country. I've since decided to do the SA CPL for various reasons.

[IRISHPILOT]

That must have been a while ago, birdlady. Germany approved their first school abroad in in 1970, Belgium some time in the 90s, France in 1997. The Czech Republic approved places abroad as early as the 1950s (I stand to be corrected, could be 1961).

stefair, what would you want 2 ICAO PPLs for?!? All you need is one. Any of them will be good for flying in the UK, some more limiting than others though. The JAA one is the most useless piece of paper, if you want to go commercial.

The FAA - JAA conversion does NOT require commercial hours, so check the possibilities.

IP

[stefair]

IP, I fully understand that I need only one. However, I think if I had both licenses it would leave me greater options, as I do not know yet, where I will be training in a few years. I've been told by some German flight schools that it'd be my best bet if I earned the JAA PPL before I'd be training any further. Plus, I think it's easier to charter, ie a C172 in Europe with a JAA license and, of course, in the US with a FAA license. As far as I know EFT will not charge me an additional fee to get both licenses at the same time, so I think my plan is OK for now, don't you think? It won't hurt me if I had two ICAO licenses for some time I guess.

Thanks for your hint on FAA - JAA conversion. I'm going to give it a go soon.

[IRISHPILOT]

Sure, 2 for 1 is always good, however I believe EFT charges you a JAA PPL and no extra for the FAA PPL.

Load down a copy of the LASORS for ideas on the FAA - JAA conversion, bearing in mind that they could change once you get closer to actually doing it, also that this is the British, amended version of the JARs. All JAR countries have their own regulations, which are broadly based on JAR, however not entirely.

The Germans are new to the game and are not quite up to speed. Lots of changes taking place there. My club in Ireland was happy to accept my FAA PPL, however you could be right that some places don't know enough about it and will require a JAR cert.

Bear in mind that things usually turn out more expensive than you budgeted for.

cheers, IP