Cardiff Wales Flying Club (CWFC) Bankrupt

[traumahawk71]

Hi I hear Aeros are coming to Cardiff.
Can anyone confirm this

[percyville]

Take a flying visit to Shobdon! Or Gliding visit to Shobdon, Talgarth or Usk.

Really glad I took the decision to join HAC! - Wasnt impressed with my exploritary visit to Cwfc.

Flying at HAC is very reasonable, which offset the cost of travelling from Cardiff area and they're very glider pilot friendly.

Having the option to take a caravan up and spend a few days immersed has made the course very expedient. Loads of nice local pubs and restaurants.

Also they own all of their kit outright with lower overheads so little chance of any unexpected demise.

Cheers
Percyville

p.s. Most exciting way to see the Beacons up close is ridge soaring a glider!!!

[Awyrennwr]

Sorry to hear about this.

I bailed out last year after they increased there membership fee's by a ridiculous amount and brought payment forward, so only 3 weeks after joining I was given a huge bill to pay before I was allowed to fly again. I know several others who likewise cut there losses before the inevitable.

I hope aeros do take over it would be great to have a decent flying club on my doorstep. but....

As for commercial training well....

At the moment ATC refuse to take any training flights due to a dispute with TBI over staffing levels since being assigned additional airspace by NATS. That puts any cost effective IR training out of the window. It is extremley unlikley that if aeros move in ATC will allow them traning slots.

percyville - SPOT ON!! I joined HAC after leaving CWFC and have never looked back. Fantastic club and cheaper for me to travel to EGBS than pay CWFC's rates.

[flower]

At the moment ATC refuse to take any training flights due to a dispute with TBI over staffing levels since being assigned additional airspace by NATS. That puts any cost effective IR training out of the window. It is extremely unlikely that if Aeros move in ATC will allow them training slots.

Check your facts before posting ,that is complete and utter nonsense.
Beacon training is available to Aircraft above 5700kgs , Military Aircraft , "EXAM" aircraft and locally based Aircraft. These restrictions were placed upon ATC by the Airport Authority who have every right to decide who trains at their airport.
This decision was not made by ATC and we are certainly not in any dispute whatsoever with TBI over staffing levels or any other matter.

[cwfc_instructor]

For Attention of the Membership of CWFC

It has been passed to me by word of mouth from several sources that the ownership of one of the club's remaining two tomahawks has recently been transferred to a club member in lieu of monies owed to him and his business partner for the hire of another aircraft.

It has also been passed to me by word of mouth that this member and/or his business partner are/were members of the current committee of management.

I do not have factual proof that the above information is true. However, as a member I feel it is important to let as many other members as possible know that this may have taken place.

The persons involved, as committee members and therefore directors of the company, may not have acted legally - again I have no proof of this.

I believe that Cardiff Wales Flying Club Limited is a Company Limited by Guarantee - the guarantors being the membership.

I therefore believe that the members, as guarantors, should decide how the assets of the company are distributed, especially when receivers have apparently not yet been called.

[pipertommy]

Wednesday tomorrow ! As mentioned in a previous rumour this maybe announcement day or is this pure speculation?

[The Flying Lip]

cwfc_instructor

I really hope you can substantiate what you posted. If true, the Committee of the club may be deemed to have committed an offence - it is NOT for them to decide what happens to the assets of a defunct club, but is instead a role for either the administrators, the receivers or the membership.

Checking the CAA website, for instance, the aircraft in question, G-BTAS, was transferred to a new owner on 23/9/2004 - just a little over a week before the club's doors closed. The new owner is/was not a committee member, but his business partner is/was.

The gentlemen in question were by no means the only people owed money. What about all the others? Under law, I don't believe they are a special case.

I would advise you to make sure that you can prove your allegation - or withdraw your post. You don't have to post your proof - but I would advise, as has happened with the Ormond Beach Aviation thread, where Danny has asked to get names and addresses of those who post, that you drop a line to [email protected]!

TFL

[cwfc_instructor]

The Flying Lip

I did put a lot of "apparently" statements in my post to indicate that there was an element of doubt.

However, on reading your post and reviewing my own, I have edited the post to remove the sarcasm and to pass the information on as it has been given to me.

PP "Rumour" NE mainly deals with "word of mouth".

On this occasion I think it is important that the membership of the club are given as much information as possibe - as a member I have received nothing from the club either in writing or by email.

I have no way of passing information to the other members other than by "word of mouth" or by using a forum - and this one is by far the best!!

Cheers

[Allanhu]

Thanks for the info cwf_instructor. As a cwfc member, I feel as if I have been screwed. as many other's have been. But what can we do leagaly? We must have substantial proof.

And by the way, tomorrow is Wednesday, the day for GOOD news?????????

[Awyrennwr]

Flower - I appologise;
I must have been mis-informed, but it seems to be what most major FTO's are telling there students when they bring up the point that CDF is a possible IR test route but they can't practice it!!!
(BTW - EXAM callsigns ARE NOT training flights) Yes I know you take EXAM callsigns I was with you as one recently, I also know you take 5.7+, I handle them if required!
It still seems a little odd that managment don't want any training flights, wich for most airports is good source of revenue. Especially airports as quiet as Cardiff.
Didn't the training ban come into force just after the additional airspace allocation???

I agree it would be great to see CPL/IR training again in wales since it stopped at Aberporth.

There is an interesting post on the private flying forum about CWFC, some members trying to find private hire agreements outside of the club to avoid the ever increasing rates. Some possible contacts for those who wish to continue flying out of EGFF.

Best of luck to those who lost out, been there, done that, got the t-shirt, but unfortunately no money. I belive those who lost a considerable amount teamed up to try and form a major creditor.

[thereceiver2004]

hmmmm what a curious state of affairs.

I would like to know the location of the following company assets which "disappeared" the day the club "ceased trading"

1 x hand held GPS receiver (approx £600)
1 x front desk TFT monitor
1 x Secuirty camera surveliance monitor and recording equipment
1 x all in one copier, scanner and printer
various pairs of Ray Bans sunglasses
1 x large PA38 model from the entrance lobby
various pieces of computer software (flight planning, IFR,VFR comms)
1 x digital camera
1 x computer modem (which prevented internet access for a few days prior to shutdown)


all these apparent company owned assets apparently disappeared prior to the receiver appearing at the club today (lets hope the mangement commitee have secured them in a secure place incase vandals wanted to break in and steal them, therby meaning they could be sold by the receiver to pay off creditors etc..)

ALSO

I would like to know why BTAS has been moved from ownership of CWFC back to Mr Lowe 2 weeks prior to the club going bust.. seems a little fishy to me !
surely if Mr Lowe was a creditor, he should be in line with everyone else.


(p.s. i am not making ANY accusations, just as a member and fee payer would like to know where all the expensive items have gone)


also with regards to 4 possible parties interested, i know that one group is made up of previous club members (who just also happen to be management committee members) why were they not concerned at the rate of money being wasted prior to the demise..?? is there something else going on here ????

Today is apparently the day for news.. outside the club.. Mr Antony Mayo has parked his car, meaning he is inside.. probably with the receiver...so some news should come soon.. i hope.
LOTS of questions need to be answered to staff and members

Roll on AERO'S... a professionally run company, not a mickey mouse run boys club.

RC2004

[flower]

The delegated function provided by ATC at Cardiff has been in place for years, the additional delegated function was taken on in July2003. Although there has been a considerable increase in traffic handled it had absolutely nothing to do with ATC that training was by and large cut.
I am not privy as to why TBI changed who could train.

I am very surprised that the Flight Schools are saying it is an ATC issue as all were informed of the changes and the reasons for them.

As I said before ATC and TBI have an excellent working relationship. Beacon Training adds considerably to the ATCOs workload but I have absolutely no problem with handling it.

[warrior2004]

i think the way the staff and members have been treated is a discrace! what about all those students who put money on account just weeks before the club closed? another thing what will happen to all those people who were sold TL`S ????????

[The Flying Lip]

Warrior 2004

Unfortunately, that is the way of things.

The club realistically has two ways forward - find someone who is prepared to add enough capital to keep it going, or call in the receivers.

Personally, I believe the latter is the way forward - the cash injection required would be too large to be sensible. Remember that most of the money required would be needed to cover debt, so after injecting large funds, the investor would be left with a business that is still worth less than the cash invested. Not a sensible solution....

In a liquidation situation, an appointed receiver will take a view on what assets the business has (this typically involves debt recovery, asset disposal and asset tracing - so the postings above will be of interest to them) and what the debt is. By way of example, (and this is an example, don't read anything into it) the club has £30K of debtors and assets, and owed £10K to the VAT and £50K in unpaid salaries, deposits, other debts etc - then the receiver will collect the debts and sell the assets (NOTE - it will be up to the receiver to realise assets, NOT the committee or members, and the receiver will take a VERY dim view of strange transfers and missing assets). Typically then, the VAT get their's first - so the remaining £20K will have to satisfy £50K of debt. There may well be certain other items that take priority in this, but assuming that there is no such priority, other debts will be repaid at a rate of 40p in the pound (less the receiver's fees).

In terms of the trial lessons - the CWFC club had taken the wise step of carefully recording and time limiting each sale. For those people who paid with a credit card, they should be able to claim from their card provider (after the liquidation is complete). All the others are in the queue with the other debtors.

If the club does not have enough assets to cover the VAT bill, then there will be no refund of any monies paid. As Charlie Zulu said, and it is WISE advice - DO NOT PAY UP FRONT FOR FLYING.

In terms of communication with the members and staff, no it is not good - but it is unfortunately typical of this situation. If someone has taken the PCs as alleged earlier, I don't see how the club could have contacted us....

thereceiver2004 - some of the items you listed are unlikely to have been club property - photocopiers and the like are usually leased, and I believe that the IT and security equipment was on loan to the club.

TFL

[pipertommy]

Guess we will all find out very shortly!come lets here some good news !"

[warrior2004]

THE FLYINGLIP
THE PHONES ARE STILL WORKING THEY COULD HAVE AT LEAST INFORMED THE STAFF!!!!!!! THEY NEW WHAT WAS COMEING, DON`T YOU THINK?

THEFLYINGLIP
AND AS FOR THE MEMBERS!! THERE ARE ALSO PAPER COPIES OF ALL MEMBERS AT THE CLUB, SO A PC WOULD HAVE NOT BEEN NEEDED TO INFORM ANYBODY!!! IF THEY HAD WANTED TO INFORM ANYBODY THEY COULD HAVE........... NO EXCUSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Flying Lip]

Warrior2004

I am not clear why you post at me in such an aggressive fashion. I, like you I suspect, am just a club member. I am not, and never have been, a committee member. I am not involved with any of the bids that are on the table.

I am just a little better informed than many thanks to my contacts in the industry and the area. I am attempting, via this thread, to pass on some of what I know.

Your points are not very valid. Using the telephone after the club has ceased trading is, in fact, an offence. A business that has ceased trading is not allowed to run up further debt - and telephone charges, electricity, heating etc - come into that category.

To the best of my knowledge, there was not a paper list of members that could have been taken away. The membership list was held electronically, and if the rumours are true, the PC was amongst the first of the things to go.

What you are seeing is typical of a business closure.

TFL

[spitfire747]

The Flying Lip, TheReceiver2004

as a former employee, from what i have heard over the past few months, the security equipment was purchased from a previous commitee member/instructor now 737 pilot for an amusing amount of money.

from memory there was 2 photocopiers in the building which i believe are still there but also an all-in-one photocopier,scanner and printer in the back office. However looking through the front door you can see the nice TFT screen used by Karen has now been replaced by an old monitor and up until close of business of tuesday, the TFT monitor and computer WAS there.


Hope some good news breaks soon.. I am getting hungry

[Charlie Zulu]

No worries Spitty, I'll buy you some crisps when we meet up for a couple of drinks later!

Just let me know where to meet you in Cardiff City Centre.

[The Flying Lip]

Friday is the big day for an announcement from CIAL.

Equine Gob Job that.

TFL