Cardiff Wales Flying Club (CWFC) Bankrupt
Join Date: Oct 2004
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FAO CWFC_Instructor
I imagine CAA want everyone who wants to be involved to be involed, if you know what I mean. Give them a chance.
As for the bickering, you may think it is hypocritical, I thought it was observation based on fact. I've not actually bickered with anyone. You may notice main man has not responded, hardly a conversation then is it. Even if he does I'll not respond, I've posted what I had to say, it is based on fact (not fiction) so there is nothing else to add.
Bickering is something like "we done this you did that"; "we're not responsible you are" etc etc.
I merely pointed out that the demise of the club was not down to one particualr committee or person, just a series of events lead by poor management and decision making over a long period of time
At least you have to give CAA a chance. Gary Jones has put his money where his mouth is and is investing a lot of time and effort, probably more so than any other committee member previously. Now only one personhas control maybe the important business decisions will be made and quickly to the benefit of us all.
In an ideal world it would be the best scenario if we could all forget what has gone on in the past and support this new venture and look to the future. You're criticising CAA yet know nothing about what they are offering as of yet - hardly giving them a chance to show you what they can offer.
Perhaps some peoples ego's have been too badly bruised in all of this so they will always hold a grudge. Shame.
Anyway, I for one will be supporting this new venture entirely, I just wish everyone felt the same.
As for you personally, hope you find employment soon, maybe if you supported this new venture rather than critiscised it then an employment offer may have been forthcoming.
I can't speak for this new venture but they are hardly likely to employ persons who are against them.
Anyway, enough of this, I'll keep viewing as i usually do but I've posted as much as I'm going to.
toodlepip
Oddyfish
I imagine CAA want everyone who wants to be involved to be involed, if you know what I mean. Give them a chance.
As for the bickering, you may think it is hypocritical, I thought it was observation based on fact. I've not actually bickered with anyone. You may notice main man has not responded, hardly a conversation then is it. Even if he does I'll not respond, I've posted what I had to say, it is based on fact (not fiction) so there is nothing else to add.
Bickering is something like "we done this you did that"; "we're not responsible you are" etc etc.
I merely pointed out that the demise of the club was not down to one particualr committee or person, just a series of events lead by poor management and decision making over a long period of time
At least you have to give CAA a chance. Gary Jones has put his money where his mouth is and is investing a lot of time and effort, probably more so than any other committee member previously. Now only one personhas control maybe the important business decisions will be made and quickly to the benefit of us all.
In an ideal world it would be the best scenario if we could all forget what has gone on in the past and support this new venture and look to the future. You're criticising CAA yet know nothing about what they are offering as of yet - hardly giving them a chance to show you what they can offer.
Perhaps some peoples ego's have been too badly bruised in all of this so they will always hold a grudge. Shame.
Anyway, I for one will be supporting this new venture entirely, I just wish everyone felt the same.
As for you personally, hope you find employment soon, maybe if you supported this new venture rather than critiscised it then an employment offer may have been forthcoming.
I can't speak for this new venture but they are hardly likely to employ persons who are against them.
Anyway, enough of this, I'll keep viewing as i usually do but I've posted as much as I'm going to.
toodlepip
Oddyfish
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Bickering
Have to say this bickering is all really sad.
I joined the club at Christmas last year, being really keen to get my PPL. What I got for the following six months or so was being poorly treated by my instructor (late/not there/forgot etc) and thoroughly fed up with how I was treated generally.
I made my choice and decided not to go anymore.
The club closes its doors. No great suprise there - If I felt it was not treating me well, I guess many others felt the same.
What has happened is in the past, and that as they say is a different country - they do things differently there.
It really does not matter who has done what or taken what or whatever for that matter.
There is only one operator in Cardiff for now, not two and not the ones that operated in the past.
If I were GJ, I would think what the heck am I doing getting involved in all this.
It is GJ's money - he can spend it how he spends it, be that a brasserie or a pole dancing club. We have a choice, to go or go somewhere else.
For all of those that feel the need to post something negative/unhelpful/derogatory, consider whether this is going to help GA at Cardiff or not before you post.
If you really are that bitter just go somewhere else and the best of luck to you.
Personally, I look forward to when we get further information (soon I hope) and start flying again.
Good luck to the new management.
I joined the club at Christmas last year, being really keen to get my PPL. What I got for the following six months or so was being poorly treated by my instructor (late/not there/forgot etc) and thoroughly fed up with how I was treated generally.
I made my choice and decided not to go anymore.
The club closes its doors. No great suprise there - If I felt it was not treating me well, I guess many others felt the same.
What has happened is in the past, and that as they say is a different country - they do things differently there.
It really does not matter who has done what or taken what or whatever for that matter.
There is only one operator in Cardiff for now, not two and not the ones that operated in the past.
If I were GJ, I would think what the heck am I doing getting involved in all this.
It is GJ's money - he can spend it how he spends it, be that a brasserie or a pole dancing club. We have a choice, to go or go somewhere else.
For all of those that feel the need to post something negative/unhelpful/derogatory, consider whether this is going to help GA at Cardiff or not before you post.
If you really are that bitter just go somewhere else and the best of luck to you.
Personally, I look forward to when we get further information (soon I hope) and start flying again.
Good luck to the new management.
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I'm not going to get bogged down in the Committee X versus Committee Y debate on here. I don't know enough about it, and I suspect that is true about most of the posters on this thread.
However.
One thing that is abundantly clear from the bickering that has beset the club in the last three years or so, is that it needed to be closed off. If I were in charge at CAA, I would act quickly to ensure that the CWFC members are informed of what happened to their club's assets and effects. I appreciate that CAA may not be in a position to do this, since a receiver may or may not be involved somewhere - but I would highly recommend that they ask any other parties that may have the knowledge to produce a schedule of assets etc for the CWFC members so that this particular running sore is cured once and for all, and does not go on to poison the CAA.
The key debate on this thread should be how GA at Cardiff is to be encouraged. If that is not the case, I for one think CIAL should be a little more honest and tell people - including CAA!
The biggest issue for CAA is going to be, like it or not, how it treats private owners. Cardiff has over 20 private aircraft, attached to over 60 people. Some of these aircraft have been on the field for over a quarter of a century, and they pay CIAL directly every month for their landing and parking. These owners have happily paid CWFC for membership and access to their aircraft and supported the various clubs with their patronage.
Now, the situation is changing. Private owners, in common with all CAA members, are being asked to find £300 for first year membership, and an undisclosed sum for future years. For this 100% increase in fees (justified by CAA by the investment in new aircraft and facilities that in the main the owners won't use) they are going to get Office Hours Only access to their aircraft. Outside these hours, Execair are suggested. Execair have not been consulted on this, and are not really geared up to handling PA28s - and this would mean YET MORE expense for the private owners.
To any private owners who are thinking of paying for this - please think again. You own an aircraft so that, within reason, you can fly when you want to, and are not beholden to a club's rules and hire availability.
I know of NO private owners who are intending to pay for this shoddy treatment.
All the private owners are asking for is a little consideration. What is so wrong with granting them their own facility - even a portacabin - with access to the airfield (as at SOOO many other airfields) and let CAA get on with the job of training people?
For all those who say these rates are market forces at work, I say - to have market forces, you must have a market. If CAA is to be the sole provider at Cardiff for all GA, no market exists.
It is just despicable to treat people like this. Several owners have already tried to discuss this with CAA to be met with varying degrees of rudeness. The owner of CAA and CIAL are simply saying "cough up for a reduced service or sod off".
This is not an acceptable position, and can only be to the detriment of GA at Cardiff. Are we to be in a position where a new PPL does his training at CAA, is trained well and professionally, and then the day he finds the cash to buy a share, is invited to go elsewhere if he wants to fly out of office hours? I do hope not.
There is a lot of anger out there right now, people. CIAL would do well to remember the lessons of Southampton, as would CAA.
TFL
PS: "It's not that the majority on here dont want GA at Cardiff. The fact is the "new" GA at Cardiff doesn't want the majority of us!"
It seems that is the case...
However.
One thing that is abundantly clear from the bickering that has beset the club in the last three years or so, is that it needed to be closed off. If I were in charge at CAA, I would act quickly to ensure that the CWFC members are informed of what happened to their club's assets and effects. I appreciate that CAA may not be in a position to do this, since a receiver may or may not be involved somewhere - but I would highly recommend that they ask any other parties that may have the knowledge to produce a schedule of assets etc for the CWFC members so that this particular running sore is cured once and for all, and does not go on to poison the CAA.
The key debate on this thread should be how GA at Cardiff is to be encouraged. If that is not the case, I for one think CIAL should be a little more honest and tell people - including CAA!
The biggest issue for CAA is going to be, like it or not, how it treats private owners. Cardiff has over 20 private aircraft, attached to over 60 people. Some of these aircraft have been on the field for over a quarter of a century, and they pay CIAL directly every month for their landing and parking. These owners have happily paid CWFC for membership and access to their aircraft and supported the various clubs with their patronage.
Now, the situation is changing. Private owners, in common with all CAA members, are being asked to find £300 for first year membership, and an undisclosed sum for future years. For this 100% increase in fees (justified by CAA by the investment in new aircraft and facilities that in the main the owners won't use) they are going to get Office Hours Only access to their aircraft. Outside these hours, Execair are suggested. Execair have not been consulted on this, and are not really geared up to handling PA28s - and this would mean YET MORE expense for the private owners.
To any private owners who are thinking of paying for this - please think again. You own an aircraft so that, within reason, you can fly when you want to, and are not beholden to a club's rules and hire availability.
I know of NO private owners who are intending to pay for this shoddy treatment.
All the private owners are asking for is a little consideration. What is so wrong with granting them their own facility - even a portacabin - with access to the airfield (as at SOOO many other airfields) and let CAA get on with the job of training people?
For all those who say these rates are market forces at work, I say - to have market forces, you must have a market. If CAA is to be the sole provider at Cardiff for all GA, no market exists.
It is just despicable to treat people like this. Several owners have already tried to discuss this with CAA to be met with varying degrees of rudeness. The owner of CAA and CIAL are simply saying "cough up for a reduced service or sod off".
This is not an acceptable position, and can only be to the detriment of GA at Cardiff. Are we to be in a position where a new PPL does his training at CAA, is trained well and professionally, and then the day he finds the cash to buy a share, is invited to go elsewhere if he wants to fly out of office hours? I do hope not.
There is a lot of anger out there right now, people. CIAL would do well to remember the lessons of Southampton, as would CAA.
TFL
PS: "It's not that the majority on here dont want GA at Cardiff. The fact is the "new" GA at Cardiff doesn't want the majority of us!"
It seems that is the case...
I am sure this is rumour about office 9-5 access for aircraft owners.. perhaps everyone should calm down until another "official" statement is made.. from Gary or Damien
surelay CAA should not be the bad guys here, i know of NO OTHER airport of reasonable size, where aircraft owners are only able to access there planes through a flying club... perhaps you should all be banging at CIAL.... after all Southside has access to the apron from the fire station, CAA and the place next door, as well as a padlocked gate. If people pay rent etc.. to CIAL then surely they are entitled to complete access courtesy of CIAL. seems logical to me... but correct me if I am wrong..
Exeter has a manned security entry point for all GA
Bournemouth has various club access points and security access for private GA
Southampton has a padlocked gate for access, old private GA had a key
Shoreham has access thourgh all schools and various padlocked gates
all it perhaps needs from CIAL is a swipe system on a gate, to gain immediate access to ramp, using a swipe card THEY supply....
any thoughts ?
surelay CAA should not be the bad guys here, i know of NO OTHER airport of reasonable size, where aircraft owners are only able to access there planes through a flying club... perhaps you should all be banging at CIAL.... after all Southside has access to the apron from the fire station, CAA and the place next door, as well as a padlocked gate. If people pay rent etc.. to CIAL then surely they are entitled to complete access courtesy of CIAL. seems logical to me... but correct me if I am wrong..
Exeter has a manned security entry point for all GA
Bournemouth has various club access points and security access for private GA
Southampton has a padlocked gate for access, old private GA had a key
Shoreham has access thourgh all schools and various padlocked gates
all it perhaps needs from CIAL is a swipe system on a gate, to gain immediate access to ramp, using a swipe card THEY supply....
any thoughts ?
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CAA will only be the bad guys Spit if they refuse to consider the issues of private owners. CIAL may well be the villain of the piece here. Either way, they need to sort this out, if they are not to send a VERY powerful anti-GA message out.
do you think a separate gate with swipe facilities using cards supplied by CIAL would be a good idea, this means the members then DO NOT HAVE TO pay or use CAA if they choose not to
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Hi spit,i have heard rumours that the security on southside is to be changed, developments at the entry point to fire station,and possibly due to a certain airline moving southside.There would be access to maintenance centre ect.Could the club get in on this, to include access for G.A also?
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Interesting News
I have it on good authority that Aeros in Gloucester and Filton are offering FREE membership to former CWFC members until the end of the year! After that, £50 a year. Sounds like a great deal to me!
Another thought - anyone seen Page 107 of the November edition of Flyer Magazine? Are these the same aircraft that are lined up for Cardiff?
Of the two promised Robins, I understand that one of them is already in service with another Gloucester based flying club.... has anyone told the Cotswold Flying Club that they are going to be losing it yet?
Or are they??
TFL
Another thought - anyone seen Page 107 of the November edition of Flyer Magazine? Are these the same aircraft that are lined up for Cardiff?
Of the two promised Robins, I understand that one of them is already in service with another Gloucester based flying club.... has anyone told the Cotswold Flying Club that they are going to be losing it yet?
Or are they??
TFL
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And another thing.... if the CWFC lease was, as seems very likely, taken over with some sort of "debt recovery/bond" by the CAA... then TUPE must surely apply.
Former employees, see your legal people!
Former employees, see your legal people!
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It is £60 a year at Swansea, or that is what someone else has been quoted from the club.
I have it on very good authority that the application forms are readily available from Cardiff Academy of Aviation. However they require the payment of £300 for the first years membership up front before they release the form.
At the moment the access for private owners is "in business hours only" and there are no concrete plans for or against twenty four hour access.
I'm off to Aero's or Swansea. I'm leaning more towards Aero's (probably a better idea for me as I'm going commercial).
I have it on very good authority that the application forms are readily available from Cardiff Academy of Aviation. However they require the payment of £300 for the first years membership up front before they release the form.
At the moment the access for private owners is "in business hours only" and there are no concrete plans for or against twenty four hour access.
I'm off to Aero's or Swansea. I'm leaning more towards Aero's (probably a better idea for me as I'm going commercial).
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seen the new CAA website...
http://www.cardiffacademyofaviation.co.uk/
QUOTE:
Security
Access to the general public will be limited to the shop and café bar (trial lesson students and their families will be granted a day pass to access the restaurant and bar facilities).
All student, flying and private members will be required to complete a security clearance form (link) to obtain their swipe card allowing airside access. Airside access cannot be granted per Cardiff International Airport regulations until all necessary security clearance is received.
24 hour access for members is being considered.
CAA employs a highly qualified full time Chief Flying Instructor, John Davies, plus xx flight instructors.
Practical Tuition
From 1 st December, we will offer half hour and hour lesson slots in either the brand new 2 seater Robin or 4 seater Diamond aircraft.
All instructors are highly qualified with many years flight experience.
Ratings initially offered will include PPL, IMC and night rating.
so i guess thats why CAA is not taking on any or the previous flight instructors let alone any of the other staff that made the club a friendly place to be....
http://www.cardiffacademyofaviation.co.uk/
QUOTE:
Security
Access to the general public will be limited to the shop and café bar (trial lesson students and their families will be granted a day pass to access the restaurant and bar facilities).
All student, flying and private members will be required to complete a security clearance form (link) to obtain their swipe card allowing airside access. Airside access cannot be granted per Cardiff International Airport regulations until all necessary security clearance is received.
24 hour access for members is being considered.
CAA employs a highly qualified full time Chief Flying Instructor, John Davies, plus xx flight instructors.
Practical Tuition
From 1 st December, we will offer half hour and hour lesson slots in either the brand new 2 seater Robin or 4 seater Diamond aircraft.
All instructors are highly qualified with many years flight experience.
Ratings initially offered will include PPL, IMC and night rating.
so i guess thats why CAA is not taking on any or the previous flight instructors let alone any of the other staff that made the club a friendly place to be....
Last edited by thereceiver2004; 25th Oct 2004 at 22:03.
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That CAA website wasn't there long. Lets hope the club lasts a lot longer than that attempt. 
But on a serious note I read the site yesterday and it seemed ok. Was unable to get a breakdown of the fleet of aircraft and there was no details about the instructors although it did say they were very experienced. They must intend paying them pretty well if they are looking for instructors with years of expereince. Wouldn't imagine there are that many around who would fit that requirement and are willing to move.
It mentioned a few good things such as eventually getting a simulator so that students would be able to use that in wet weather and that there would be series of lectures for the PPL exams which is very useful for us learning to fly.
Membership was listed at £300 and then dropping to £100 in 2006
But on a serious note I read the site yesterday and it seemed ok. Was unable to get a breakdown of the fleet of aircraft and there was no details about the instructors although it did say they were very experienced. They must intend paying them pretty well if they are looking for instructors with years of expereince. Wouldn't imagine there are that many around who would fit that requirement and are willing to move.
It mentioned a few good things such as eventually getting a simulator so that students would be able to use that in wet weather and that there would be series of lectures for the PPL exams which is very useful for us learning to fly.
Membership was listed at £300 and then dropping to £100 in 2006