Information on Mcc/Crm Courses
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Information on Mcc/Crm Courses
Im considering taking the next step on the airline job ladder.The multi crew coordination course.
People who have been to these courses please
tell me all you can about them so I choose my school Wisely.
Are they standard across the world or are they specific to each country.Do you have to do an mcc course in the country where your licenced.How many hours of study do they take.
Any information is greatly receieved.I take it crew resource management is the same
People who have been to these courses please
tell me all you can about them so I choose my school Wisely.
Are they standard across the world or are they specific to each country.Do you have to do an mcc course in the country where your licenced.How many hours of study do they take.
Any information is greatly receieved.I take it crew resource management is the same
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You are asking about MCC and CRM - these are two very different courses that have a few similar elements.
MCC is a FCL requirement to get your first multi pilot (MP) typerating. Many airlines want you to have this in order to save costs. You will also need it if you plan to buy your own first MP typerating. It can be taken in any JAA memeberstate - don't think it matters where.
CRM is an OPS requirement specific to each airline. (Must undergo CRM training approved for each airline). This is normally conducted by the airline after employment. Few airlines that I know of will require you to have this to get a job. In other words JAR-OPS CRM is nice to have but not as needed as MCC for a career start.
If concerned about cots than I would skip CRM and focus on MCC.
What should you consider when choosing self sponsored MCC?
1) Cost
2) Transferable concepts
3) MCC philosophy
Cost – the most cost effective MCCs are often conducted in non-type specific FNPTIIs (low cost training device) or old simulators in aircrafts not widely used anymore.
Example of transferable concepts: A course that will use the same FNPT or FFS (simulator) as you will use for your future typerating. Eg. if you are planning to invest in a 737 type than it would be beneficial to follow an MCC course that use a 737 FTD and that will use procedures and profiles similar to those you will use during your later 737 type training.
MCC philosophy - MCC courses tend to be “generic” but are often based on turbopropps while others have been carefully designed to explain multi-crew philosophies used by the major manufacturers of transport category jets. Some schools have decided to include lots of nice to know stuff that is not required to be covered in detail. Others choose to follow JAR-FCL in a practical need-to-know manner.
MCC courses should include 30 hrs classroom and 20 hours FNPTII (SIM)
MCC is a FCL requirement to get your first multi pilot (MP) typerating. Many airlines want you to have this in order to save costs. You will also need it if you plan to buy your own first MP typerating. It can be taken in any JAA memeberstate - don't think it matters where.
CRM is an OPS requirement specific to each airline. (Must undergo CRM training approved for each airline). This is normally conducted by the airline after employment. Few airlines that I know of will require you to have this to get a job. In other words JAR-OPS CRM is nice to have but not as needed as MCC for a career start.
If concerned about cots than I would skip CRM and focus on MCC.
What should you consider when choosing self sponsored MCC?
1) Cost
2) Transferable concepts
3) MCC philosophy
Cost – the most cost effective MCCs are often conducted in non-type specific FNPTIIs (low cost training device) or old simulators in aircrafts not widely used anymore.
Example of transferable concepts: A course that will use the same FNPT or FFS (simulator) as you will use for your future typerating. Eg. if you are planning to invest in a 737 type than it would be beneficial to follow an MCC course that use a 737 FTD and that will use procedures and profiles similar to those you will use during your later 737 type training.
MCC philosophy - MCC courses tend to be “generic” but are often based on turbopropps while others have been carefully designed to explain multi-crew philosophies used by the major manufacturers of transport category jets. Some schools have decided to include lots of nice to know stuff that is not required to be covered in detail. Others choose to follow JAR-FCL in a practical need-to-know manner.
MCC courses should include 30 hrs classroom and 20 hours FNPTII (SIM)
In other words JAR-OPS CRM is nice to have but not as needed as MCC for a career start
MCC courses tend to be “generic”
MCC courses should include 30 hrs classroom and 20 hours FNPTII (SIM)
So, to summarise - Forget CRM, it's not necessary. Concentrate on MCC (multi-crew co-operation) and, as you have been advised, choose your training provider carefully, just as you would for any other course. The quality of training is far more important than the FNPT or sim that is used - don't be suckered into a second rate course just because it's done on a 737, A320, DC10, or whatever.
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Thanks for good clarifications and correction BillieBob.
First - you are right about the hrs.
I agree 100% when you say that CRM it’s not required at this stage.
I have seen low time students take MCC in typespesific FTDs and then they continue with a typerating. This makes it easier for them to pass the typerating
I would like to expand a bit on what I mean when I talk about “generic” MCC. The term “generic” MCC is interesting both when we try to interpret the intent of FCL 1.261 and when we try to design a good syllabus.
FCL 1.261 states in part that wherever possible, the MCC training should be combined with the initial type rating training. Combined courses tend to be less “generic” than the ones that have a "one shoe fits all sizes format". Nothing wrong with that as long as they don’t get so generic that they don’t cover essential elements.
One of the two largest manufacturers has this statement in the introduction of their manuals: “This manual is written under the assumption that the user has had previous experience and is familiar with basic pilot techniques common to airplanes of this type. Therefore, the operations manual does not contain basic flight information that is considered prerequisite training”. Part of this prerequisite training is practical MCC and should be covered in a good MCC course.
With practical MCC I mean relevant industry standard crew co-operation procedures. The major manufacturers use a number of official handbooks and orders to ensure that they stay within the industry standards when they design their manuals and procedures. Which also are the documents used by many regulators during the approval process. Examples of this are guidelines for checklist design to overcome human limitations. This includes items such as area of responsibility, how to ensure that the required actions have been accomplished, and verbally verify with standardized responses. When possible, checklists have responses which are consistent with the labeling on the switches and controls in the cockpit. The logic behind responses such as “checked”, “set” or “as required” is often not included in aircraft manuals. Some MCC courses are so nonspecific that they do not even include generic procedures such as those given in government handbooks and orders. I have seen MCC courses that are so “generic” that they look more like a JAR-OPS CRM course with LOFT sessions. (No teaching of basic MCC prerequisite knowledge).
My advice: Choose a MCC course that is practical, not too much “psychobabble”, and that will teach you practical crew co-operation and flight deck duties in accordance official industry standards.
First - you are right about the hrs.
I agree 100% when you say that CRM it’s not required at this stage.
I have seen low time students take MCC in typespesific FTDs and then they continue with a typerating. This makes it easier for them to pass the typerating
I would like to expand a bit on what I mean when I talk about “generic” MCC. The term “generic” MCC is interesting both when we try to interpret the intent of FCL 1.261 and when we try to design a good syllabus.
FCL 1.261 states in part that wherever possible, the MCC training should be combined with the initial type rating training. Combined courses tend to be less “generic” than the ones that have a "one shoe fits all sizes format". Nothing wrong with that as long as they don’t get so generic that they don’t cover essential elements.
One of the two largest manufacturers has this statement in the introduction of their manuals: “This manual is written under the assumption that the user has had previous experience and is familiar with basic pilot techniques common to airplanes of this type. Therefore, the operations manual does not contain basic flight information that is considered prerequisite training”. Part of this prerequisite training is practical MCC and should be covered in a good MCC course.
With practical MCC I mean relevant industry standard crew co-operation procedures. The major manufacturers use a number of official handbooks and orders to ensure that they stay within the industry standards when they design their manuals and procedures. Which also are the documents used by many regulators during the approval process. Examples of this are guidelines for checklist design to overcome human limitations. This includes items such as area of responsibility, how to ensure that the required actions have been accomplished, and verbally verify with standardized responses. When possible, checklists have responses which are consistent with the labeling on the switches and controls in the cockpit. The logic behind responses such as “checked”, “set” or “as required” is often not included in aircraft manuals. Some MCC courses are so nonspecific that they do not even include generic procedures such as those given in government handbooks and orders. I have seen MCC courses that are so “generic” that they look more like a JAR-OPS CRM course with LOFT sessions. (No teaching of basic MCC prerequisite knowledge).
My advice: Choose a MCC course that is practical, not too much “psychobabble”, and that will teach you practical crew co-operation and flight deck duties in accordance official industry standards.
Last edited by 80/20; 4th Apr 2004 at 04:52.
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Doesn't matter about the training device.
Doesn't matter if you're considering doing a type rating.
Do it with people who have actual flown two crew. Most courses are actually the blind (but confident and taking your money) leading the blind.
Rob
Doesn't matter if you're considering doing a type rating.
Do it with people who have actual flown two crew. Most courses are actually the blind (but confident and taking your money) leading the blind.
Rob
Rob - Would you care to name one MCC training provider that uses instructors who have not flown two crew? No, I suppose not.
The minimum entry requirement for a MCCI is, among other things, to "have at least 1500 hours flying experience as pilot on multi-pilot aeroplanes". Even before the latest amendment to JAR-FCL 1, the UK required a minimum of 500 hours experience.
80/20 - I obviously misunderstood your intial use of the term 'generic'. I entirely agree that checklists and SOPs should be developed in accordance with good practice and that courses should be entirely practical and free of 'psychobabble', which should all have been taken care of in the HP&L examination.
I also agree that knowledge gained during a MCC course conducted on a type specific STD might have some indirect benefit in a subsequent type rating course on the same type. However, I maintain that this factor alone should not determine the choice of training provider.
The minimum entry requirement for a MCCI is, among other things, to "have at least 1500 hours flying experience as pilot on multi-pilot aeroplanes". Even before the latest amendment to JAR-FCL 1, the UK required a minimum of 500 hours experience.
80/20 - I obviously misunderstood your intial use of the term 'generic'. I entirely agree that checklists and SOPs should be developed in accordance with good practice and that courses should be entirely practical and free of 'psychobabble', which should all have been taken care of in the HP&L examination.
I also agree that knowledge gained during a MCC course conducted on a type specific STD might have some indirect benefit in a subsequent type rating course on the same type. However, I maintain that this factor alone should not determine the choice of training provider.
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Thank you
Thank you very much for all your replies.I had very little idea of the course and its very hard to get detailed information other than the venues and the costs.This is not going to happen for a few months.But I want to be knowledgable and have my facts in order as I have been caught out in the past.I think training can be the proverbial shop with a big window if your not careful.I am based in Ireland and RyanAir being our fastest growing carrier has a scheme where If you are succesful candidate you will be placed on a typerating course Beoing 737 at a healthy cost of 30,000 thousand euros.This to me seems extraordinarily expensive considering I have seen courses advertised for a fraction of the cost.Is this airline profiting from new pilots or is that the going rate.
Thank you very much for all your replies.I had very little idea of the course and its very hard to get detailed information other than the venues and the costs.This is not going to happen for a few months.But I want to be knowledgable and have my facts in order as I have been caught out in the past.I think training can be the proverbial shop with a big window if your not careful.I am based in Ireland and RyanAir being our fastest growing carrier has a scheme where If you are succesful candidate you will be placed on a typerating course Beoing 737 at a healthy cost of 30,000 thousand euros.This to me seems extraordinarily expensive considering I have seen courses advertised for a fraction of the cost.Is this airline profiting from new pilots or is that the going rate.
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I can’t tell what will work for you, I have seen some low-time pilots purchase a type and get hired by an airline after which they say that it was the best investment they ever made. I also know of non-typed guys who have flown as instructors, at commuters, and so on for years at a very low pay - does not seem fair that you can just buy the type but that is certainly becoming the trend among the low cost carriers.
30.000 € ...a lot of money....
I would not be surprised if you could get a JAA type course for almost half of that if you wait with the touch & goes that must be done in the actual aircraft until you have secured a job. Some exact numbers anyone?
Another option in the pre JAA days used to be a much cheaper FAA type but I am not sure about conversion now with JAR-FCL, does anyone know how that works... if anyone have found a cost efficient way to convert an FAA type or if there are any progress with JAA/FAA FCL harmonisation?
I had a young pilot in the jump seat recently, he was going for an interview for 747 FO, had about 1500 hrs light aircraft time, had taken his ratings the cheapest way, flying clubs, modular, low cost generic MCC, no type rating and build his hours instructing SE. Just got an e-mail from him and he got the job!
BillieBob & Rob I have a feeling that we agree about how a MCC should not be – how about a dialogue about what a good MCC course should focus on?
30.000 € ...a lot of money....
I would not be surprised if you could get a JAA type course for almost half of that if you wait with the touch & goes that must be done in the actual aircraft until you have secured a job. Some exact numbers anyone?
Another option in the pre JAA days used to be a much cheaper FAA type but I am not sure about conversion now with JAR-FCL, does anyone know how that works... if anyone have found a cost efficient way to convert an FAA type or if there are any progress with JAA/FAA FCL harmonisation?
I had a young pilot in the jump seat recently, he was going for an interview for 747 FO, had about 1500 hrs light aircraft time, had taken his ratings the cheapest way, flying clubs, modular, low cost generic MCC, no type rating and build his hours instructing SE. Just got an e-mail from him and he got the job!
BillieBob & Rob I have a feeling that we agree about how a MCC should not be – how about a dialogue about what a good MCC course should focus on?
Last edited by 80/20; 5th Apr 2004 at 06:49.
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Misleading quote from PPRuNe Towers:
"Do it with people who have actual flown two crew. Most courses are actually the blind (but confident and taking your money) leading the blind.
Rob"
You have to have a minimum of 500 hours multi-pilot (NOT dual) before you can become an MCCI. So, the chnaces of doing an MCC course with instructors who have NOT flown multi crew is precisely.......NIL. 0%. None.
By all means investigate the backgrounds of the instructors as much as you can - but they will ALL have at least 500 multi-pilot hours behind them.
"Do it with people who have actual flown two crew. Most courses are actually the blind (but confident and taking your money) leading the blind.
Rob"
You have to have a minimum of 500 hours multi-pilot (NOT dual) before you can become an MCCI. So, the chnaces of doing an MCC course with instructors who have NOT flown multi crew is precisely.......NIL. 0%. None.
By all means investigate the backgrounds of the instructors as much as you can - but they will ALL have at least 500 multi-pilot hours behind them.
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Was chatting to some pretty experienced airline pilots down at the European sim hangar the last coupla weeks and the general concencus was that the device is not an issue when it comes to the MCC. Aside from the valuable course content you're just learning some old company SOP's which probably have significant differences to what you might experience from a future employer so just do it cheap and have done with it.
Spending £3000 on a full motion jet sim may be useful if you have an interview lined up the following week as you'll be able to sneak in some practice handling the big stuff but that's about the only advantage the guys I spoke to could see and they really knew about all this stuff so........ just passing it on guys.
VFE.
Spending £3000 on a full motion jet sim may be useful if you have an interview lined up the following week as you'll be able to sneak in some practice handling the big stuff but that's about the only advantage the guys I spoke to could see and they really knew about all this stuff so........ just passing it on guys.
VFE.
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Hi moggie
just been away doing exams.
checked in their.
I suppose to cut a long story short.
I want to hear as much as possible about this course as it sounds to me as a bit of a sham.I presume once upon a time it was an inhouse type of training that has know become part of the training requisite.
It sounds to me like when you open the local paper and see courses for wannabe cabin crew.ya fork out your money and next thing ya get a job and they tell you you wasted your money.
I have made some fuc**ing money blunders at my small time stage.I have had enough.So all advice is very welcome.
Any one out there who has had sim training (I mean jets).
and crm training please advise.Is it worth being bonded for thousands for a couple of years paying regional airlines for typeratings or is it better to do it privately for a whole lot cheaper.
and then go looking for jobs?
Any technical advice out there like how not to fu-*k up a sim check?
just been away doing exams.
checked in their.
I suppose to cut a long story short.
I want to hear as much as possible about this course as it sounds to me as a bit of a sham.I presume once upon a time it was an inhouse type of training that has know become part of the training requisite.
It sounds to me like when you open the local paper and see courses for wannabe cabin crew.ya fork out your money and next thing ya get a job and they tell you you wasted your money.
I have made some fuc**ing money blunders at my small time stage.I have had enough.So all advice is very welcome.
Any one out there who has had sim training (I mean jets).
and crm training please advise.Is it worth being bonded for thousands for a couple of years paying regional airlines for typeratings or is it better to do it privately for a whole lot cheaper.
and then go looking for jobs?
Any technical advice out there like how not to fu-*k up a sim check?
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Sure you know the answer to that last question yourself but the main thing they wanna see is that you can learn and improve on your first attempt. I know of a guy who crashed the sim during an interview but made a significant improvement the second time. The airline was satisfied and he got the job so it just goes to show......
Appreciating the extra speed when intercepting the localiser, for example, is something which having flown light pistons you'll probably have to think hardest about. The inertia can be quite a challenge to deal with and the instant thrust you're used to in pistons is not there on jets so basicaly it's an all round proactive, thinking ahead approach which you will have experienced from IR flying, only doubled due to the handling characteristics. Sims in general tend to be far more sensitive than the real aircraft yet this is something you have to factor in nonetheless.
Does this help much? No.
VFE.
Appreciating the extra speed when intercepting the localiser, for example, is something which having flown light pistons you'll probably have to think hardest about. The inertia can be quite a challenge to deal with and the instant thrust you're used to in pistons is not there on jets so basicaly it's an all round proactive, thinking ahead approach which you will have experienced from IR flying, only doubled due to the handling characteristics. Sims in general tend to be far more sensitive than the real aircraft yet this is something you have to factor in nonetheless.
Does this help much? No.
VFE.
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FCL 1.261 states in part that wherever possible, the MCC training should be combined with the initial type rating training
Scroggs
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Well it was during the last recession when eager newbies were looking for ways to get ahead so they started coughing up cash for MCC's and now whad'ya know.....
The same logic which see's more and more rookies stumping up the cash for their initial type ratings but let's not start that one again eh!
VFE.
The same logic which see's more and more rookies stumping up the cash for their initial type ratings but let's not start that one again eh!
VFE.
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Well I got my MCC certificate from Multiflight for around £2K - good instructors - most were active airline pilots so each sim session tended to have a slightly different emphasis - I really enjoyed it and it only lasted 8 days.
I got the required piece of paper so I am happy, if you do a search I am sure you can quite readily discover a number of debates about sim types for the MCC - might get asked at interview but it isnt really relevant to the actual MCC course itself.
Have fun
Ben
I got the required piece of paper so I am happy, if you do a search I am sure you can quite readily discover a number of debates about sim types for the MCC - might get asked at interview but it isnt really relevant to the actual MCC course itself.
Have fun
Ben
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If I was offered a job with a regional flying something like a 146 or an atr having to pay through the nose for the typerating would it be better to go off and get typerated in a more common aircraft like an a320 or a 737.Surely it would be better for your career to be type rated on a more widely used aircraft.
Anyone care to comment?
Anyone care to comment?
